Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

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Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Christoph Hormann-2

I recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page
(http://tasks.hotosm.org/) and found the page is now presenting itself
tautologically as an "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" portal with
no indication except for the small logo on top that this is a separate
project with no official character.  At the same time it seems (at a
first glance) there is not a single link on the site to OpenStreetMap.  
To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the
impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap
Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.

In my eyes this is a fairly clear misrepresentation of OpenStreetMap not
covered by the trademark policy we now have.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
Hi Christoph,

We can not win if we do or if we do not :)

It clearly says the HOT Tasking Manager, which it is. We were asked to
change it from OSM Tasking Manager because people felt that was
misrepresenting, it was not the OSM Tasking manager, it was HOT's
Tasking Manager, so I changed that in TM v2.

And the major emphasis on "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" is
exactly because people also said we did not put OpenStreetMap
prominently enough. Now it is the biggest thing on the page and that
is not right either :)

It doesn't say "HOT Collaborative Mapping" because people are not HOT
mapping, they are OSM mapping.

But, I think we are happy to change that title on that page to
something else if the community feels it is somehow misrepresenting
something.

Respectfully,
blake


On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:08 AM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page
> (http://tasks.hotosm.org/) and found the page is now presenting itself
> tautologically as an "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" portal with
> no indication except for the small logo on top that this is a separate
> project with no official character.  At the same time it seems (at a
> first glance) there is not a single link on the site to OpenStreetMap.
> To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the
> impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap
> Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.
>
> In my eyes this is a fairly clear misrepresentation of OpenStreetMap not
> covered by the trademark policy we now have.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



--
----------------------------------------------------
Blake Girardot
Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Robert Banick
HOT will probably never find a formulation of our mission and tools that satisfies the entire OSM community. However, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. 

My two cents: How about a simple blurb describing and linking to OSM on the About page? And perhaps the title banner could be rephrased to “Collaborative Mapping of OpenStreetMap”?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:28 PM Blake Girardot HOT/OSM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Christoph,

We can not win if we do or if we do not :)

It clearly says the HOT Tasking Manager, which it is. We were asked to
change it from OSM Tasking Manager because people felt that was
misrepresenting, it was not the OSM Tasking manager, it was HOT's
Tasking Manager, so I changed that in TM v2.

And the major emphasis on "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" is
exactly because people also said we did not put OpenStreetMap
prominently enough. Now it is the biggest thing on the page and that
is not right either :)

It doesn't say "HOT Collaborative Mapping" because people are not HOT
mapping, they are OSM mapping.

But, I think we are happy to change that title on that page to
something else if the community feels it is somehow misrepresenting
something.

Respectfully,
blake


On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:08 AM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page
> (http://tasks.hotosm.org/) and found the page is now presenting itself
> tautologically as an "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" portal with
> no indication except for the small logo on top that this is a separate
> project with no official character.  At the same time it seems (at a
> first glance) there is not a single link on the site to OpenStreetMap.
> To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the
> impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap
> Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.
>
> In my eyes this is a fairly clear misrepresentation of OpenStreetMap not
> covered by the trademark policy we now have.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



--
----------------------------------------------------
Blake Girardot
Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Ed Loach-2
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
> At the same time it seems (at a
> first glance) there is not a single link on the site to OpenStreetMap.

At a quick glance the "Learn" page explains the first thing you need is an OpenStreetMap account, and when I clicked "Login" it asked me to allow access to Tasking Manager 3 (probably as I was already logged in to OSM - otherwise I'm guessing you get to login or signup).

Ed


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Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

David Groom
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
How about
1) Change "OpenStreetmap Collaborative Mapping" to "OpenStreetmap Distaster Mapping"
2) Link the word "OpenStreetmap"  to the OSM web site

Regards
David

------ Original Message ------
From: "Blake Girardot HOT/OSM" <[hidden email]>
To: "Christoph Hormann" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "OSM Talk" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 23/10/2017 10:37:38
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Hi Christoph,
 
We can not win if we do or if we do not :)
 
It clearly says the HOT Tasking Manager, which it is. We were asked to
change it from OSM Tasking Manager because people felt that was
misrepresenting, it was not the OSM Tasking manager, it was HOT's
Tasking Manager, so I changed that in TM v2.
 
And the major emphasis on "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" is
exactly because people also said we did not put OpenStreetMap
prominently enough. Now it is the biggest thing on the page and that
is not right either :)
 
It doesn't say "HOT Collaborative Mapping" because people are not HOT
mapping, they are OSM mapping.
 
But, I think we are happy to change that title on that page to
something else if the community feels it is somehow misrepresenting
something.
 
Respectfully,
blake
 
 
On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:08 AM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
I recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page
(http://tasks.hotosm.org/) and found the page is now presenting itself
tautologically as an "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" portal with
no indication except for the small logo on top that this is a separate
project with no official character. At the same time it seems (at a
first glance) there is not a single link on the site to OpenStreetMap.
To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the
impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap
Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.
 
In my eyes this is a fairly clear misrepresentation of OpenStreetMap not
covered by the trademark policy we now have.
 
--
Christoph Hormann
 
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
 
 
 
--
----------------------------------------------------
Blake Girardot
Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team
 
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
I suspect Christophs issue is more that HOT seems to be claiming
ownership of "OpenStreetMap collaborative mapping". Though I would argue
that the rest of OSM has always been about collaborative mapping and it
is exactly what HOT doesn't do, but I digress.

In any case HOT is clearly not the only organisation engaging in
"OpenStreetMap collaborative mapping" however you define it and should
not be creating the impression that it is and trying to claim exclusive
ownership of the term.  Outside of that, given that we are discussing
the all shiny and new TM3, it would be a could occasion to follow
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy#2._How_to_use_the_OSM_marks


Thanks

Simon



Am 23.10.2017 um 11:37 schrieb Blake Girardot HOT/OSM:

> Hi Christoph,
>
> We can not win if we do or if we do not :)
>
> It clearly says the HOT Tasking Manager, which it is. We were asked to
> change it from OSM Tasking Manager because people felt that was
> misrepresenting, it was not the OSM Tasking manager, it was HOT's
> Tasking Manager, so I changed that in TM v2.
>
> And the major emphasis on "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" is
> exactly because people also said we did not put OpenStreetMap
> prominently enough. Now it is the biggest thing on the page and that
> is not right either :)
>
> It doesn't say "HOT Collaborative Mapping" because people are not HOT
> mapping, they are OSM mapping.
>
> But, I think we are happy to change that title on that page to
> something else if the community feels it is somehow misrepresenting
> something.
>
> Respectfully,
> blake
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:08 AM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page
>> (http://tasks.hotosm.org/) and found the page is now presenting itself
>> tautologically as an "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" portal with
>> no indication except for the small logo on top that this is a separate
>> project with no official character.  At the same time it seems (at a
>> first glance) there is not a single link on the site to OpenStreetMap.
>> To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the
>> impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap
>> Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.
>>
>> In my eyes this is a fairly clear misrepresentation of OpenStreetMap not
>> covered by the trademark policy we now have.
>>
>> --
>> Christoph Hormann
>> http://www.imagico.de/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>


_______________________________________________
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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Joseph Reeves
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
Hi all,


Version 2 of the Task Manager had "a perfectly fine choice of name for this kind of tool" [0], but I can't really see how V3 [1] is much different.

Cheers, Joseph




On 23 October 2017 at 10:08, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:

I recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page
(http://tasks.hotosm.org/) and found the page is now presenting itself
tautologically as an "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" portal with
no indication except for the small logo on top that this is a separate
project with no official character.  At the same time it seems (at a
first glance) there is not a single link on the site to OpenStreetMap.
To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the
impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap
Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.

In my eyes this is a fairly clear misrepresentation of OpenStreetMap not
covered by the trademark policy we now have.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by David Groom


Am 23.10.2017 um 15:06 schrieb David Groom:
How about
1) Change "OpenStreetmap Collaborative Mapping" to "OpenStreetmap Distaster Mapping"

Use of the trademarks shouldn't imply endorsement  and/or affiliation and in the end exclusivity in any form. "A tool to support mapping of disaster areas in OpenStreetMap" would for example be OK (a bit long but just to get the point across).

Simon

2) Link the word "OpenStreetmap"  to the OSM web site

Regards
David

------ Original Message ------
From: "Blake Girardot HOT/OSM" <[hidden email]>
To: "Christoph Hormann" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "OSM Talk" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 23/10/2017 10:37:38
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Hi Christoph,
 
We can not win if we do or if we do not :)
 
It clearly says the HOT Tasking Manager, which it is. We were asked to
change it from OSM Tasking Manager because people felt that was
misrepresenting, it was not the OSM Tasking manager, it was HOT's
Tasking Manager, so I changed that in TM v2.
 
And the major emphasis on "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" is
exactly because people also said we did not put OpenStreetMap
prominently enough. Now it is the biggest thing on the page and that
is not right either :)
 
It doesn't say "HOT Collaborative Mapping" because people are not HOT
mapping, they are OSM mapping.
 
But, I think we are happy to change that title on that page to
something else if the community feels it is somehow misrepresenting
something.
 
Respectfully,
blake
 
 
On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:08 AM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
I recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page
(http://tasks.hotosm.org/) and found the page is now presenting itself
tautologically as an "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" portal with
no indication except for the small logo on top that this is a separate
project with no official character. At the same time it seems (at a
first glance) there is not a single link on the site to OpenStreetMap.
To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the
impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap
Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.
 
In my eyes this is a fairly clear misrepresentation of OpenStreetMap not
covered by the trademark policy we now have.
 
--
Christoph Hormann
 
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
 
 
 
--
----------------------------------------------------
Blake Girardot
Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team
 
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


_______________________________________________
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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
On Monday 23 October 2017, Simon Poole wrote:
> I suspect Christophs issue is more that HOT seems to be claiming
> ownership of "OpenStreetMap collaborative mapping".

Yes, this is one of my points.  The other is that it fails to connect
the visitor to collaboration and communication within the OSM
community.  The visitor is invited into what is being presented
as "OpenStreetMap collaborative mapping" but this whole concept as it
is being presented on that site seems to be carefully segregated from
the rest of the OSM community with its communication channels, wiki,
local communities etc.

No one can forbid HOT to do that but if they do so they IMO should not
present this under the name OpenStreetMap as "OpenStreetMap
collaborative mapping" in general or even as pars pro toto.

Or they could rework the site to properly present OpenStreetMap and HOT
and how they relate to the visitor.  learnosm.org (which i think is
also mainly built by HOT) shows this is possible to do.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Mikel Maron-3
Hello everyone

I think there are some very reasonable ideas and discussion on this thread, about how to describe the tasking manager, OSM, HOT, etc. We all can agree it's complicated, and explaining this right is worthy of our time and energy. (One additional complication to consider is that the tasking manager software is used in lots of different scenarios, include every day mapping, so the tag line may need to cover non-disaster situations as well.)

However ... I hope we can also agree that it is counter productive to start off such discussions in such an argumentative pose. I hear a lot of distrust in phrases like "misrepresentation", "claiming ownership", "exactly what HOT doesn't do". It's emotionally draining for me to read things like this, and I don't think I'm alone. There is always more we can learn from each other, about what to do and how to do it. We are all here in OpenStreetMap because we love the map. Can we please use that as a starting point in our interactions, and focus on helping each other to make the map together?

Thanks
-Mikel

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Monday, October 23, 2017, 7:59:41 AM MDT, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Monday 23 October 2017, Simon Poole wrote:
> I suspect Christophs issue is more that HOT seems to be claiming
> ownership of "OpenStreetMap collaborative mapping".

Yes, this is one of my points.  The other is that it fails to connect
the visitor to collaboration and communication within the OSM
community.  The visitor is invited into what is being presented
as "OpenStreetMap collaborative mapping" but this whole concept as it
is being presented on that site seems to be carefully segregated from
the rest of the OSM community with its communication channels, wiki,
local communities etc.

No one can forbid HOT to do that but if they do so they IMO should not
present this under the name OpenStreetMap as "OpenStreetMap
collaborative mapping" in general or even as pars pro toto.

Or they could rework the site to properly present OpenStreetMap and HOT
and how they relate to the visitor.  learnosm.org (which i think is
also mainly built by HOT) shows this is possible to do.


--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Ian Dees
On Oct 23, 2017 08:59, "Mikel Maron" <[hidden email]> wrote:

However ... I hope we can also agree that it is counter productive to start off such discussions in such an argumentative pose. I hear a lot of distrust in phrases like "misrepresentation", "claiming ownership", "exactly what HOT doesn't do". It's emotionally draining for me to read things like this, and I don't think I'm alone. There is always more we can learn from each other, about what to do and how to do it. We are all here in OpenStreetMap because we love the map. Can we please use that as a starting point in our interactions, and focus on helping each other to make the map together?

Yes, thanks for bringing this up Mikel. Combative questions and the assumption that the other party is trying to attack OSM makes threads like this extremely difficult to participate in. People interested in having a conversation about OSM avoid the mailing lists because of threads like this and it hurts our community.

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Clifford Snow


On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Ian Dees <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Oct 23, 2017 08:59, "Mikel Maron" <[hidden email]> wrote:

However ... I hope we can also agree that it is counter productive to start off such discussions in such an argumentative pose. I hear a lot of distrust in phrases like "misrepresentation", "claiming ownership", "exactly what HOT doesn't do". It's emotionally draining for me to read things like this, and I don't think I'm alone. There is always more we can learn from each other, about what to do and how to do it. We are all here in OpenStreetMap because we love the map. Can we please use that as a starting point in our interactions, and focus on helping each other to make the map together?

Yes, thanks for bringing this up Mikel. Combative questions and the assumption that the other party is trying to attack OSM makes threads like this extremely difficult to participate in. People interested in having a conversation about OSM avoid the mailing lists because of threads like this and it hurts our community.

Thanks Mikel and Ian for your respectful push back. The talk list should be a place of collaboration with respectful dialog as we all seek to improve OSM.

Clifford



--
@osm_seattle
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Mikel Maron-3
On Monday 23 October 2017, Mikel Maron wrote:
> [...] However ... I hope we can
> also agree that it is counter productive to start off such
> discussions in such an argumentative pose. I hear a lot of distrust
> in phrases like "misrepresentation", "claiming ownership", "exactly
> what HOT doesn't do".

This has nothing to do with trust, i looked at the website and describe
my observations here.  The term "misrepresentation" is from the
trademark policy:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy#5.3._Misrepresentation

If you think it is inappropriate to use such a term w.r.t. OSM
trademarks this is probably something you need to discuss with the LWG.

> It's emotionally draining for me to read things
> like this, and I don't think I'm alone.

Have you considered that it might be "emotionally draining" for OSM
contributors to see the name of the project being used on a website
like this without any links to OSM and mentioning of the fact that OSM
is all about collaborative global mapping even without HOT or the
tasking manager?

FWIW - i do not feel emotionally drained about this, but i feel rather
offended by your, Ian's and Clifford's reactions deflecting a
matter-of-factly critique of that website and the resulting discussion
about this and possible ways to improve it (and i welcome the
constructive suggestions so far) into a discussion about what words may
be used in discussion here.

I would also like to remind you that one of the most important guiding
principle in communication in OSM is to "assume good faith".  I
followed this principle here by describing my observations of the
tasking manager without any interpretation as for why it is designed
this way - although this is of course a question i did contemplate.

It would be nice to see you doing me the same courtesy by arguing the
topic at hand without insinuating "an argumentative
pose", "distrust", "Combative questions" or a lack of respect.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
Hi,

On 10/23/2017 03:57 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> Or they could rework the site to properly present OpenStreetMap and HOT
> and how they relate to the visitor.  learnosm.org (which i think is
> also mainly built by HOT) shows this is possible to do.

Missing Maps, which is also a very HOT-influenced project, tends to
present itself like this:

"Missing Maps is an open, collaborative project in which you can help to
map areas where humanitarian organisations are trying to meet the needs
of vulnerable people."

Thankfully, at the bottom of their web site, they add:

"OpenStreetMap is the volunteer-driven open data mapping platform which
makes all of this possible, supported by the not-for-profit
OpenStreetMap Foundation."

You can gripe with that a little, since it seems to degrade OSM to being
just the "platform" while the "collaboration" happens on Missing Maps,
but hey, at least they write "OSM makes all of this possible" which is
accurate.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Mikel Maron-3
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
Christoph

I see that my message wasn't received as intended. My hope is not to amplify disagreements, but to help set a constructive and friendly tone. Let's take the discussion of how we're communicating "offline" -- I'll connect with you, and I hope set up a time to talk directly.

In any case, I don't feel I'm deflecting. As I said, "I think there are some very reasonable ideas and discussion on this thread, about how to describe the tasking manager, OSM, HOT, etc", and appreciate your work to help frame the complexities of OSM appropriately. 

I also think we should have better guidance on the handling of trademark policy, the appropriate ways and places to raise issues, and how the OSM Foundation and LWG handle these issues. Will bring this up.

Thanks
-Mikel

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Monday, October 23, 2017, 10:23:14 AM MDT, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Monday 23 October 2017, Mikel Maron wrote:
> [...] However ... I hope we can
> also agree that it is counter productive to start off such
> discussions in such an argumentative pose. I hear a lot of distrust
> in phrases like "misrepresentation", "claiming ownership", "exactly
> what HOT doesn't do".

This has nothing to do with trust, i looked at the website and describe
my observations here.  The term "misrepresentation" is from the
trademark policy:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy#5.3._Misrepresentation

If you think it is inappropriate to use such a term w.r.t. OSM
trademarks this is probably something you need to discuss with the LWG.

> It's emotionally draining for me to read things
> like this, and I don't think I'm alone.

Have you considered that it might be "emotionally draining" for OSM
contributors to see the name of the project being used on a website
like this without any links to OSM and mentioning of the fact that OSM
is all about collaborative global mapping even without HOT or the
tasking manager?

FWIW - i do not feel emotionally drained about this, but i feel rather
offended by your, Ian's and Clifford's reactions deflecting a
matter-of-factly critique of that website and the resulting discussion
about this and possible ways to improve it (and i welcome the
constructive suggestions so far) into a discussion about what words may
be used in discussion here.

I would also like to remind you that one of the most important guiding
principle in communication in OSM is to "assume good faith".  I
followed this principle here by describing my observations of the
tasking manager without any interpretation as for why it is designed
this way - although this is of course a question i did contemplate.

It would be nice to see you doing me the same courtesy by arguing the
topic at hand without insinuating "an argumentative
pose", "distrust", "Combative questions" or a lack of respect.


--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
On Monday 23 October 2017, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:
>
> It clearly says the HOT Tasking Manager, which it is. We were asked
> to change it from OSM Tasking Manager because people felt that was
> misrepresenting, it was not the OSM Tasking manager, it was HOT's
> Tasking Manager, so I changed that in TM v2.

As i said in the previous discussion about this the name "OSM Tasking
manager" to me seems perfectly fine as a name for the tool in general.

My critique here is about this instance of the tool running as a public
service and containing the tasks of the HOT project.

I have no specific suggestion about the heading/catchphrase but there
were already a few ideas mentioned by others in what direction this
could go.  Independent of that prominently linking to learnosm.org (or
a different page explaining OSM and providing relevant links) on the
starting page (like with a second button next to "Start Mapping") would
be good.

In addition i would suggest to add

* links to openstreetmap.org (and OSM wiki, communication channels) from
the About and Learn pages.
* a disclaimer according to the trademark policy on the About page.
* adding at least brief verbal credits to OSM - for example like
Frederik cited from Missing Maps - to the starting page somewhere.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Ian Dees
Hi,

On 10/23/2017 05:06 PM, Ian Dees wrote:

> On Oct 23, 2017 08:59, "Mikel Maron" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>     However ... I hope we can also agree that it is counter productive
>     to start off such discussions in such an argumentative pose. I hear
>     a lot of distrust in phrases like "misrepresentation", "claiming
>     ownership", "exactly what HOT doesn't do". It's emotionally draining
>     for me to read things like this, and I don't think I'm alone. There
>     is always more we can learn from each other, about what to do and
>     how to do it. We are all here in OpenStreetMap because we love the
>     map. Can we please use that as a starting point in our interactions,
>     and focus on helping each other to make the map together?
>
>
> Yes, thanks for bringing this up Mikel. Combative questions and the
> assumption that the other party is trying to attack OSM makes threads
> like this extremely difficult to participate in. People interested in
> having a conversation about OSM avoid the mailing lists because of
> threads like this and it hurts our community.

I find it tiring to read these "see that's why nobody does mailing lists
any more" tirades, and it is very difficult for me to separate criticism
of the style in which something is written, from criticism of the actual
message. I feel that there's too much language policing going on, and
too little respect for cultural diversity. Christoph is, like me, from
Europe, and those of you who are quick to cast him (or "threads like
this") off as harmful to the community, seem to be from the USA. Is it
possible that we simply have different ways to express things? Can civil
conversations about OSM only be had by US citizens and those who swallow
their values, and everyone else is a problem? Or do we have the same set
of values but somehow this project manages to attract the more polite
among the North Americans, and the ill-bred of the Europeans?

Now let's try to be constructive about this and see how we can make it
better. Ian and Mikel; try for a second to put yourself in Christophs's
shoes. Assume you're a member of the OSM community, and you come across
a web site by a third party that you know but are not involved in, let's
say a web site by a charity called "Reporters without Borders".

Say you open their web page and are greeted with a banner that says
"OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" and a button "Start Mapping", and
a series of Reporters without Borders projects that you can participate
in. They talk about how they partner with other organisations or people
on the ground but don't mention the fact that OpenStreetMap was about
collaborative mapping even before "Reporters without Borders" came along
at all.

Say that - even though you're normally calm and not easily offended -
you're now slightly hurt that here's a charity building something on top
of the project that you are spending half of your spare time, and they
seem to be making it sound as if it was them who have invented
collaborative mapping.

Say that - even though your first impulse might be to do more research
or ask friends on a private communications platform of your choice about
this - you decide to make your fellow OpenStreetMappers aware of this
perceived problem, on the mailing list.

How would you go about it? What would you write? How would you
communicate to your fellow OpenStreetMappers that you feel wronged by
this charity, while at the same time not offending or emotionally
draining those among your fellow OpenStreetMappers who are involved with
that same charity?

The reason you want to share this with your peers is that this sharing
will reduce your hurt; others will (you hope) either say "yep, you are
right to feel offended, they need to change that", or they will say "ah,
it's not so bad, everyone does it anyway" which, while perhaps not as
satisfying, will also help to settle the matter for you. You cannot be
expected to send a quiet email to the makers of the page instead; you
have a right to share joy *and* pain with your fellow mappers on the
mailing list. That's the very core of social, of community.

What would be *your* words to say "Hey everybody, I saw this, and I
think it is bad and needs to change"? What choice of language would
adequately express your being upset about what you have seen, without
being denounced as a poisonous person who harms the community by seeking
support from it?

This is a honest question; I would really be interested in the, if I
may, "American version" of what Christoph has written. One that does
express how you're upset while at the same time *not* being "combative"
and all those bad things you said about Christoph's post.

Maybe then I can use that to express myself in a more internationally
compatible way in the future ;)

Bye
Frederik


--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

john whelan-2
HOT and OSM have slightly different aims but HOT does build on OSM.

There are mentions of OpenStreetMap wiki and learnOSM and the O in HOT is OpenStreetMap.

Having said that adding something along the lines of

"OpenStreetMap is the volunteer-driven open data mapping platform which
makes all of this possible, supported by the not-for-profit
OpenStreetMap Foundation."

even at the bottom of the first page would be helpful.

I accept that HOT has created a number of tools that conventional mappers use.  LearnOSM has benefited from input from HOT members and I suspect some of the imagery that is now available to armchair mappers has its roots in HOT but the quality of mapping from some of its "disposable" high turnover mappers does leave much to be desired at times so an acknowledgement of OpenStreetMap's role would not be out of place.

Cheerio John



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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Mikel Maron-3
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
Hey Frederik

Really good questions. 

First off, I don't necessarily see this as an American - European thing .. there are plenty of people with different approaches to communication everywhere. 

What does guide me is experience communicating online, in text, with people from a variety of backgrounds. It is *very* easy to misunderstand intent online. It is *very* easy to have an limbic reaction to something we read online. (There is in fact a lot introspection right now about the effect of this dynamic on democracy as a whole). When I feel it's necessary, I go out of my way to not only share my issue, or what I want to happen, but also my thought process getting there, and my understanding of other points of view.

The start of this thread began in the context trademark policy. I don't mean to get into a discussion about the details of trademark policy, though that is an important topic. Starting off discussion of the Tasking Manager in this way feels pretty aggressive. As HOT, and very importantly the individuals who participate in HOT, are well known in the OSM community, you can assume they are on this mailing list, are open to discussion, and want to make things better.

In fact, I totally agree with Christoph that the new Tasking Manager needs to improve how it communicates about OSM, and there have been some constructive suggestions in the thread. I think posting on talk@ is one fine way to open that discussion. He could also have contacted HOT people directly, posted on the hot@ list, opened GitHub issues. The point is, HOT is not a faceless, unresponsive entity, but people you run across every day in OSM, with whom you can discuss things, and work together constructively.

So here's maybe a turn at rephrasing the original email.

> Subject: How can we better talk about OSM on the new Tasking Manager?
>
> I recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page  (http://tasks.hotosm.org/)
> and found the page is now presenting itself as the "OpenStreetMap Collaborative 
> Mapping"  portal with  no indication except for the small logo on top that this is one of
> many projects in the OpenStreetMap community.
>
> At the same time it seems (at a  first glance) I could not find any links on the site
> to OpenStreetMap.  
>
> To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the 
> impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap 
> Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.
>
> From past discussions on this topic, I figure HOT does not want to give this
> impression. Here are some ways I think the tasking manager and it's relationship
> to OSM could be better communicated.

Hope this helps clear this up.

Thanks
-Mikel


* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Monday, October 23, 2017, 11:24:33 AM MDT, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hi,

On 10/23/2017 05:06 PM, Ian Dees wrote:

> On Oct 23, 2017 08:59, "Mikel Maron" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

>
>
>    However ... I hope we can also agree that it is counter productive
>    to start off such discussions in such an argumentative pose. I hear
>    a lot of distrust in phrases like "misrepresentation", "claiming
>    ownership", "exactly what HOT doesn't do". It's emotionally draining
>    for me to read things like this, and I don't think I'm alone. There
>    is always more we can learn from each other, about what to do and
>    how to do it. We are all here in OpenStreetMap because we love the
>    map. Can we please use that as a starting point in our interactions,
>    and focus on helping each other to make the map together?
>
>
> Yes, thanks for bringing this up Mikel. Combative questions and the
> assumption that the other party is trying to attack OSM makes threads
> like this extremely difficult to participate in. People interested in
> having a conversation about OSM avoid the mailing lists because of
> threads like this and it hurts our community.

I find it tiring to read these "see that's why nobody does mailing lists
any more" tirades, and it is very difficult for me to separate criticism
of the style in which something is written, from criticism of the actual
message. I feel that there's too much language policing going on, and
too little respect for cultural diversity. Christoph is, like me, from
Europe, and those of you who are quick to cast him (or "threads like
this") off as harmful to the community, seem to be from the USA. Is it
possible that we simply have different ways to express things? Can civil
conversations about OSM only be had by US citizens and those who swallow
their values, and everyone else is a problem? Or do we have the same set
of values but somehow this project manages to attract the more polite
among the North Americans, and the ill-bred of the Europeans?

Now let's try to be constructive about this and see how we can make it
better. Ian and Mikel; try for a second to put yourself in Christophs's
shoes. Assume you're a member of the OSM community, and you come across
a web site by a third party that you know but are not involved in, let's
say a web site by a charity called "Reporters without Borders".

Say you open their web page and are greeted with a banner that says
"OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" and a button "Start Mapping", and
a series of Reporters without Borders projects that you can participate
in. They talk about how they partner with other organisations or people
on the ground but don't mention the fact that OpenStreetMap was about
collaborative mapping even before "Reporters without Borders" came along
at all.

Say that - even though you're normally calm and not easily offended -
you're now slightly hurt that here's a charity building something on top
of the project that you are spending half of your spare time, and they
seem to be making it sound as if it was them who have invented
collaborative mapping.

Say that - even though your first impulse might be to do more research
or ask friends on a private communications platform of your choice about
this - you decide to make your fellow OpenStreetMappers aware of this
perceived problem, on the mailing list.

How would you go about it? What would you write? How would you
communicate to your fellow OpenStreetMappers that you feel wronged by
this charity, while at the same time not offending or emotionally
draining those among your fellow OpenStreetMappers who are involved with
that same charity?

The reason you want to share this with your peers is that this sharing
will reduce your hurt; others will (you hope) either say "yep, you are
right to feel offended, they need to change that", or they will say "ah,
it's not so bad, everyone does it anyway" which, while perhaps not as
satisfying, will also help to settle the matter for you. You cannot be
expected to send a quiet email to the makers of the page instead; you
have a right to share joy *and* pain with your fellow mappers on the
mailing list. That's the very core of social, of community.

What would be *your* words to say "Hey everybody, I saw this, and I
think it is bad and needs to change"? What choice of language would
adequately express your being upset about what you have seen, without
being denounced as a poisonous person who harms the community by seeking
support from it?

This is a honest question; I would really be interested in the, if I
may, "American version" of what Christoph has written. One that does
express how you're upset while at the same time *not* being "combative"
and all those bad things you said about Christoph's post.

Maybe then I can use that to express myself in a more internationally
compatible way in the future ;)

Bye
Frederik


--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is a honest question; I would really be interested in the, if I
> may, "American version" of what Christoph has written. One that does
> express how you're upset while at the same time *not* being "combative"
> and all those bad things you said about Christoph's post.
>
> Maybe then I can use that to express myself in a more internationally
> compatible way in the future ;)

Here is my American, collaborative version of the same issue:

Hi,

I see the new HOT Tasking Manager.

I feel like it does not clearly describe how it it used in the
OpenStreetMap community. It is just a tool for OSM mapping, it is not
the whole of OSM and I think people might be confused possibly.

It also seems like the OpenStreetMap project and community should be
linked to a little more so people can understand and have a path to
becoming good OSM Community folks.

Can we work on improving that in HOT's new Tasking Manager? I have
some ideas that are mostly wording changes or additions and hopefully
would be easy to add.

Cheers,
Blake

I promise you that will get the exact same results or better, as
accusations of misrepresenting OSM by HOT and making sure I know you
are upset or mad.

And have the benefit that everyone who can do something about it, will
be happy to help make it happen.

Cheers
Blake

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