Monopoly City Streets

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Monopoly City Streets

Iván Sánchez Ortega
OK, I think we have a potential case of GMaps + OSM data here...

http://blog.monopolycitystreets.com/ says:

"
Q - Why isn't my street on the map?
A - Monopoly City Streets is an application built to be used on top of the
Google Street Maps and Open Street Map. We can only make streets available
for purchase that are available both in Google Maps and Open Street Maps.
"

By the sound of that, it seems that they're joining up the GMaps data and the
OSM data, and filtering out the street names in common.

I think this deserves further investigation, but there is no contact email for
the monopoly city streets game (that I can see yet).


Cheers,
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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Rahkonen Jukka
Iván Sánchez Ortega <ivan@...> writes:

>
> OK, I think we have a potential case of GMaps + OSM data here...
...
 
> By the sound of that, it seems that they're joining up the GMaps data and the
> OSM data, and filtering out the street names in common.

Do you think there might be something wrong in doing so?

-Jukka Rahkonen-



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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Iván Sánchez Ortega
El Miércoles, 9 de Septiembre de 2009, Jukka Rahkonen escribió:
> > By the sound of that, it seems that they're joining up the GMaps data and
> > the OSM data, and filtering out the street names in common.
>
> Do you think there might be something wrong in doing so?

I do. I think that their DB is a derivative work of the OSM data and that
share-alike should apply.

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Stefan Baebler
Look also at the positive site:

This mechanism might be in place to prevent a sudden surge of fantasy
streets (or even whole new cities) popping up all over OSM,
vandalizing our data.

Of course, this doesn't make all things all right.

Their "final" OSM derivate is a subset of OSM (intersection of OSM and
other google's sources), which makes it less attractive for importing
into OSM, but it still has high value (double/triple checked data...).
But before even coming to that stage they have an intermediate phase
that could be even more interesting for us (missing roads, which they
use to make the derivate).

Stefan



2009/9/9 Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]>:

> El Miércoles, 9 de Septiembre de 2009, Jukka Rahkonen escribió:
>> > By the sound of that, it seems that they're joining up the GMaps data and
>> > the OSM data, and filtering out the street names in common.
>>
>> Do you think there might be something wrong in doing so?
>
> I do. I think that their DB is a derivative work of the OSM data and that
> share-alike should apply.
>
> --
> ----------------------------------
> Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]>
>
> http://ivan.sanchezortega.es
> MSN:[hidden email]
> Jabber:[hidden email] ; [hidden email]
> IRC: ivansanchez @ OFTC & freenode
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Tom Hughes-3
In reply to this post by Iván Sánchez Ortega
On 09/09/09 12:40, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
> El Miércoles, 9 de Septiembre de 2009, Jukka Rahkonen escribió:
>>> By the sound of that, it seems that they're joining up the GMaps data and
>>> the OSM data, and filtering out the street names in common.
>>
>> Do you think there might be something wrong in doing so?
>
> I do. I think that their DB is a derivative work of the OSM data and that
> share-alike should apply.

How on earth can you know that - we have no idea what they have actually
done yet. You are all just guessing based on a few things in the blog.

How about we calm down, wait until the game is live this evening and we
might be able to see what they've done and if it is a problem...

Tom

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Iván Sánchez Ortega
In reply to this post by Stefan Baebler
El Miércoles, 9 de Septiembre de 2009, Stefan Baebler escribió:
> Look also at the positive site:
>
> This mechanism might be in place to prevent a sudden surge of fantasy
> streets (or even whole new cities) popping up all over OSM,
> vandalizing our data.

... or to detect easter eggs in big G's data. And I want that list of
(possible) easter eggs.

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Stefan Baebler
In reply to this post by Tom Hughes-3
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Tom Hughes<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 09/09/09 12:40, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
>> El Miércoles, 9 de Septiembre de 2009, Jukka Rahkonen escribió:
>>>> By the sound of that, it seems that they're joining up the GMaps data and
>>>> the OSM data, and filtering out the street names in common.
>>>
>>> Do you think there might be something wrong in doing so?
>>
>> I do. I think that their DB is a derivative work of the OSM data and that
>> share-alike should apply.
>
> How on earth can you know that - we have no idea what they have actually
> done yet. You are all just guessing based on a few things in the blog.
Will you know later with more confidence than now?
From the final data you can only be sure it _isn't_ _only_ from Navteq
or _only_ from OSM or any other data provider, as all their easter
eggs will be missing (as if OSM had any).
We could catch them only in coordinated setup, where equal (or similar
enough) trap streets are planted into several sources. Unfortunately
other data providers probably wouldn't be very cooperative.

> How about we calm down, wait until the game is live this evening and we
> might be able to see what they've done and if it is a problem...
Yes, and then we will unleash our team of high profile lawyers to make
Google release the raw data that they haven't got the permission (from
data providers) to release. This should be interesting.

Stefan

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Simone Cortesi
In reply to this post by Iván Sánchez Ortega
2009/9/9 Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]>:
> ... or to detect easter eggs in big G's data. And I want that list of
> (possible) easter eggs.

Iván, there is no reason trying to catch all the easter eggs.

When you find one, and report it, they move it somewhere else.

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Rahkonen Jukka
In reply to this post by Iván Sánchez Ortega
Iván Sánchez Ortega <ivan@...> writes:

>
> El Miércoles, 9 de Septiembre de 2009, Jukka Rahkonen escribió:
> > > By the sound of that, it seems that they're joining up the GMaps data and
> > > the OSM data, and filtering out the street names in common.
> >
> > Do you think there might be something wrong in doing so?
>
> I do. I think that their DB is a derivative work of the OSM data and that
> share-alike should apply.

They take OSM data and they take Google data and then they mix the stew and
select features which look alike in both datasets. And we say that the result is
derived from OSM? Some other day we say that similar kind of data are derived
from Google maps and no-no for OSM. There must be a secret plan that one day the
Monopoly of City Streets belongs to OSM :)





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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Iván Sánchez Ortega
In reply to this post by Stefan Baebler
El Miércoles, 9 de Septiembre de 2009, Stefan Baebler escribió:
[...]
> Yes, and then we will unleash our team of high profile lawyers [...]

You mean IF we can snatch them out of the pub. ;-)

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Iván Sánchez Ortega
In reply to this post by Iván Sánchez Ortega
OK, so it seems that they're using GMaps as the background, and OSM as the
actual street data provider. See:

http://chippy2005.googlepages.com/MonopolyCityStreets_1252505633167.png
http://chippy2005.googlepages.com/MapCompareGeofabrikTools_12525056572.png

Still deserves some more investigation...

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
2009/9/9 Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]>:
> OK, so it seems that they're using GMaps as the background, and OSM as the
> actual street data provider. See:
>
> http://chippy2005.googlepages.com/MonopolyCityStreets_1252505633167.png
> http://chippy2005.googlepages.com/MapCompareGeofabrikTools_12525056572.png
>
> Still deserves some more investigation...

This is consistent with what they say on their own blog (which is now down):

    "Who else has helped us? The project was made possible by using
the street data from OpenStreetMap, combined with Google Maps, API
tastic!"

From that comment it looks like they're using OSM vector data on the
backend to get street outlines and Google's map tiles on top of them.

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Ed Avis
In reply to this post by Iván Sánchez Ortega
Iván Sánchez Ortega <ivan@...> writes:

>>>By the sound of that, it seems that they're joining up the GMaps data and
>>>the OSM data, and filtering out the street names in common.

>I think that their DB is a derivative work of the OSM data and that
>share-alike should apply.

Even if that is true, they are not distributing their database to anyone else.

--
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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Peter Millar-2
In reply to this post by Iván Sánchez Ortega
I think that OSM is entitled to ask if the Creative Commons license has been complied with.

The Monopoly City Streets game is produced by Tribal DDB which is part of Hasbro Inc., one of the biggest toy manufacturers in the world. They own, among others, Monopoly, Trivial Pursuit, Scrabble and work on toys with Disney. The City Streets game is part of their strategy to bring game profitability to the internet.

Hasbro Inc. does not hesitate to pursue anyone who get too near to their intellectual property. It was Hasbro who went after Scrabulous last year.

It has got to be very unlikely that Hasbro would share any insights into Google's maps' Easter Eggs. Both company's understand intellectual property very well; Hasbro well enough to tell us whether they are complying with the CC license.

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From: "Iván Sánchez Ortega" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, 9 September, 2009 13:26:31 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Monopoly City Streets

El Miércoles, 9 de Septiembre de 2009, Stefan Baebler escribió:
> Look also at the positive site:
>
> This mechanism might be in place to prevent a sudden surge of fantasy
> streets (or even whole new cities) popping up all over OSM,
> vandalizing our data.

... or to detect easter eggs in big G's data. And I want that list of
(possible) easter eggs.

--
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Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]>

http://ivan.sanchezortega.es
MSN:[hidden email]
Jabber:[hidden email] ; [hidden email]
IRC: ivansanchez @ OFTC & freenode

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Matt Amos
In reply to this post by Ed Avis
On 9/9/09, Ed Avis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Iván Sánchez Ortega <ivan@...> writes:
>
>>>>By the sound of that, it seems that they're joining up the GMaps data and
>>>>the OSM data, and filtering out the street names in common.
>
>>I think that their DB is a derivative work of the OSM data and that
>>share-alike should apply.
>
> Even if that is true, they are not distributing their database to anyone
> else.

indeed. one of the myriad flaws (as i see it, anyway) of the CC
license is that only the end-product needs to be shared-alike. if
they're only distributing tiles derived from the OSM database, but not
a merged database... well, the tiles are required to be CC BY-SA, but
not their merged database*.

cheers,

matt

*: as i understand it, anyway.

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Iván Sánchez Ortega
In reply to this post by Ed Avis
El Miércoles, 9 de Septiembre de 2009, Ed Avis escribió:
> Even if that is true, they are not distributing their database to anyone
> else.

They are ... to the players, in the form of lists of streets owned by one
player and whatnot.

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Re: Monopoly City Streets

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
In reply to this post by Peter Millar-2
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Peter Millar<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think that OSM is entitled to ask if the Creative Commons license has been complied with.
>
> The Monopoly City Streets game is produced by Tribal DDB which is part of Hasbro Inc., one of the biggest toy manufacturers in the world. They own, among others, Monopoly, Trivial Pursuit, Scrabble and work on toys with Disney. The City Streets game is part of their strategy to bring game profitability to the internet.
>
> Hasbro Inc. does not hesitate to pursue anyone who get too near to their intellectual property. It was Hasbro who went after Scrabulous last year.
>
> It has got to be very unlikely that Hasbro would share any insights into Google's maps' Easter Eggs. Both company's understand intellectual property very well; Hasbro well enough to tell us whether they are complying with the CC license.

It's worthwhile to stop for a moment to consider why Monopoly City
Streets opted for this Frankensteinian merger of Google Maps tiles
with OpenStreetMap vector data (which doesn't always line up).
Probably because:

 * Nobody other than OSM would give them vector data
 * Nobody other than Google provided tile hosting for this sort of
project (and they didn't want to set up their own servers).

I don't know what Google's policy is for a project like this. Are they
getting the tiles for free or are they buying something like Google
Maps API Premier[1] ?

If it's the latter perhaps the startups that are trying to
commercialize OSM [2][3] should contact Monopoly City Streets and
offer them OSM-based tiles at a competitive prize.

That would improve things for Monopoly City Streets by getting them
off shaky legal ground and improving their game by making tiles match
up with the actual data. The OSM project would get more positive
exposure. Annd everyone on this list would have free time to play
armchair lawyer on some other issue.

1. http://www.google.com/enterprise/earthmaps/maps_features.html
2. http://www.geofabrik.de/
3. http://cloudmade.com/

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