Monterey - Santa Cruz County line in Monterey Bay

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Monterey - Santa Cruz County line in Monterey Bay

Joseph Eisenberg
From the Help page, user kurtrad writes:

> "A friend of mine says the Monterey/Santa Cruz county line in openstreets 3 miles out to sea that travels from the mouth of the pajaro river to the north south california boundary line is wrong. In openstreetsmap the line travels west, south, west. My friend says the line should travel directly west."

> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/36.8266/-121.9009

"I have a friend who says the openstreets map county line between
Monterey and Santa Cruz is wrong according to a 1927 California
Supreme Court Ruling."

> "Comments: Official boundaries of Monterey-Santa Cruz, as determined by the California Supreme Court in Ocean Industries v. Superior Court of California, in and for Santa Cruz County (1927) 200 Cal. 235. The decision held that Monterey Bay as a "closed bay" under law, and there is treated as if it were land for purposes of State and County jurisdiction -- which, in the case, held that Santa Cruz County could enforce fishing regulations in SCZ waters in Monterey Bay more than 3 miles offshore."

"I have a longish discussion at
http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MtyBay-boundaries.html"

> "Government Code section 23127 defines Monterey County as "beginning in the Pacific Ocean, at the southwest corner of Santa Cruz [County]; thence east to the mouth of the Pajaro River". Likewise, section 23144 defines Santa Cruz County, in pertinent part, as "westerly along said [Pajaro] River" along the northern line of San Benito and Monterey "to the Bay of Monterey, and three miles westerly into the ocean."

> "The ... map shows a line across Monterey Bay in this tiny sliver of the Bay that runs not > "west-east" but about WSW-ENE and connects up with the "nearest point of land" line at the 3 mile limit west of Monterey Bay."

> "To see images go to http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MtyBay-boundaries.html"

Does anyone want to look into this?
- Joseph

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Re: Monterey - Santa Cruz County line in Monterey Bay

Martijn van Exel-3
You are correct. The official Monterey County GIS file from [1] has the boundary at the shoreline, whereas OSM has it going out into the ocean, see https://imgur.com/a/aCMROQZ (OSM in orange, Official GIS in dark gray).

I don’t know all coastal counties have their official boundaries at the shoreline, but OSM has them all reaching into the ocean. [2]
I also don’t know if there is some convention in OSM (US) to have coastal country boundaries match up with the higher level boundary. If there is perhaps we may need to revisit?

Martijn

[2] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/EgP (large query)

On Dec 3, 2018, at 5:48 PM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

From the Help page, user kurtrad writes:

"A friend of mine says the Monterey/Santa Cruz county line in openstreets 3 miles out to sea that travels from the mouth of the pajaro river to the north south california boundary line is wrong. In openstreetsmap the line travels west, south, west. My friend says the line should travel directly west."

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/36.8266/-121.9009

"I have a friend who says the openstreets map county line between
Monterey and Santa Cruz is wrong according to a 1927 California
Supreme Court Ruling."

"Comments: Official boundaries of Monterey-Santa Cruz, as determined by the California Supreme Court in Ocean Industries v. Superior Court of California, in and for Santa Cruz County (1927) 200 Cal. 235. The decision held that Monterey Bay as a "closed bay" under law, and there is treated as if it were land for purposes of State and County jurisdiction -- which, in the case, held that Santa Cruz County could enforce fishing regulations in SCZ waters in Monterey Bay more than 3 miles offshore."

"I have a longish discussion at
http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MtyBay-boundaries.html"

"Government Code section 23127 defines Monterey County as "beginning in the Pacific Ocean, at the southwest corner of Santa Cruz [County]; thence east to the mouth of the Pajaro River". Likewise, section 23144 defines Santa Cruz County, in pertinent part, as "westerly along said [Pajaro] River" along the northern line of San Benito and Monterey "to the Bay of Monterey, and three miles westerly into the ocean."

"The ... map shows a line across Monterey Bay in this tiny sliver of the Bay that runs not > "west-east" but about WSW-ENE and connects up with the "nearest point of land" line at the 3 mile limit west of Monterey Bay."

"To see images go to http://creagrus.home.montereybay.com/MtyBay-boundaries.html"

Does anyone want to look into this?
- Joseph

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Re: Monterey - Santa Cruz County line in Monterey Bay

Greg Troxel-2
Martijn van Exel <[hidden email]> writes:

> You are correct. The official Monterey County GIS file from [1] has
> the boundary at the shoreline, whereas OSM has it going out into the
> ocean, see https://imgur.com/a/aCMROQZ <https://imgur.com/a/aCMROQZ>
> (OSM in orange, Official GIS in dark gray).
>
> I don’t know all coastal counties have their official boundaries at the shoreline, but OSM has them all reaching into the ocean. [2]
> I also don’t know if there is some convention in OSM (US) to have
> coastal country boundaries match up with the higher level boundary. If
> there is perhaps we may need to revisit?

This is tricky business.

Generally, the jurisdiciton of the state seems to go to 3 nmi (east and
west coasts).  However, whether those state lands are in any town or
county is an interesting question.

https://coast.noaa.gov/data/Documents/OceanLawSearch/Summary%20of%20Law%20-%20Submerged%20Lands%20Act.pdf
http://maps.massgis.state.ma.us/czm/moris/metadata/moris_sla_arc.htm

In Massachusetts, towns and counties do include the state lands.

I would recommend looking up California law and asking this question in
particular.

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Re: Monterey - Santa Cruz County line in Monterey Bay

Kevin-3
In most states the coastal county boundaries correspond with the 3 nmi state boundary.  I'm actually not aware of any that don't and from the court cases cited in the initial email, it sounds like California counties do in fact extend to the 3 nmi boundary. I took a look at the TIGER county boundaries and they correspond pretty well to what's already mapped for the Monterey-Santa Cruz boundary across Monterey Bay and they extend out 3 nmi. I looked around for county and state sources for the boundaries, but like Martijn said, they only go to the shoreline. Attribution in the relation for Monterey County is "CASIL cnty24k09_1_poly.shp" which leads me to https://geodata.lib.berkeley.edu/catalog/ark28722-s73w23.  Again this data-set only goes to the shoreline. The source on the 3 nmi boundary is "TIGER 2011 county borders".  What I think someone has done is use the CASIL data on land and extended it out using TIGER to demarcate county divisions out at the 3 nmi boundary, which I think was the correct thing to do.

So back to the original question about the Monterey-Santa Cruz line... I can look around for more information and may call Monterey County and see if they have a more up-to-date county boundary.

Kevin



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:57 AM Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Martijn van Exel <[hidden email]> writes:

> You are correct. The official Monterey County GIS file from [1] has
> the boundary at the shoreline, whereas OSM has it going out into the
> ocean, see https://imgur.com/a/aCMROQZ <https://imgur.com/a/aCMROQZ>
> (OSM in orange, Official GIS in dark gray).
>
> I don’t know all coastal counties have their official boundaries at the shoreline, but OSM has them all reaching into the ocean. [2]
> I also don’t know if there is some convention in OSM (US) to have
> coastal country boundaries match up with the higher level boundary. If
> there is perhaps we may need to revisit?

This is tricky business.

Generally, the jurisdiciton of the state seems to go to 3 nmi (east and
west coasts).  However, whether those state lands are in any town or
county is an interesting question.

https://coast.noaa.gov/data/Documents/OceanLawSearch/Summary%20of%20Law%20-%20Submerged%20Lands%20Act.pdf
http://maps.massgis.state.ma.us/czm/moris/metadata/moris_sla_arc.htm

In Massachusetts, towns and counties do include the state lands.

I would recommend looking up California law and asking this question in
particular.

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