More human readable values for traffic signs

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More human readable values for traffic signs

Mateusz Konieczny-2
I recently started tagging traffic signs and I am surprised by wide
usage country-specific traffic sign codes.

I think that at least common signs may be tagged by human-readable
values. Some (see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_sign#Human-readable_values
) are already used.

I propose to add more like
- traffic_sign=oneway
- traffic_sign=no_stopping
- traffic_sign=no_parking

In addition I propose to introduce traffic_sign_code tag that may be
used in addition to human readable values to store country-specific
traffic sign codes.

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Gerd Petermann
Mateusz Konieczny-2 wrote
I propose to add more like
- traffic_sign=oneway
- traffic_sign=no_stopping
- traffic_sign=no_parking
I like the last two, I am not happy with traffic_sign=oneway.
I fear that this might be used instead of tagging the corresponding
way, on the other hand the position of the sign doesn't add much
information when the oneway=* tag is properly set.

Mateusz Konieczny-2 wrote
In addition I propose to introduce traffic_sign_code tag that may be
used in addition to human readable values to store country-specific
traffic sign codes.
sounds good to me

Gerd
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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Florian Lohoff-2
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 02:38:37AM -0700, GerdP wrote:

> Mateusz Konieczny-2 wrote
> > I propose to add more like
> > - traffic_sign=oneway
> > - traffic_sign=no_stopping
> > - traffic_sign=no_parking
>
> I like the last two, I am not happy with traffic_sign=oneway.
> I fear that this might be used instead of tagging the corresponding
> way, on the other hand the position of the sign doesn't add much
> information when the oneway=* tag is properly set.
But still tagging as much signs as possible will help to at least
manually verify the data integrity. If there are oneway signs but
no street without a oneway there is definitly something wrong.

I am currently doing so with street lamps. Adding street lamps is
no replacement for lit=yes on the streets. Still the existance
of individual street_lamps shows the validity of a lit=yes on the
road.

Flo
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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Michael Reichert
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-2
Hi Mateusz,

Am Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:58:08 +0100 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> I recently started tagging traffic signs and I am surprised by wide
> usage country-specific traffic sign codes.
>
> I think that at least common signs may be tagged by human-readable
> values. Some (see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_sign#Human-
readable_values
> ) are already used
>
> I propose to add more like
> - traffic_sign=oneway
> - traffic_sign=no_stopping
> - traffic_sign=no_parking

At least the oneway sign looks different from country to country. Or do
you expect that a French oneway sign looks like the German one? (The
German one contains the word "Einbahnstraße", the German translation of
oneway) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_220-20.svg

And even traffic signs without text often look different because
different countries use different fonts.

That's why I suggest to use the country prefixes followed by a number or
the name depending if the country numbers its traffic signs (like
Germany) or not (like Austria).

Best regards

Michael


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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Jo-2
Also keep in mind there are 2 'oneway' signs. A blue one that can be round or rectangular and a round red one.

2015-10-27 23:05 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>:
Hi Mateusz,

Am Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:58:08 +0100 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> I recently started tagging traffic signs and I am surprised by wide
> usage country-specific traffic sign codes.
>
> I think that at least common signs may be tagged by human-readable
> values. Some (see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_sign#Human-
readable_values
> ) are already used
>
> I propose to add more like
> - traffic_sign=oneway
> - traffic_sign=no_stopping
> - traffic_sign=no_parking

At least the oneway sign looks different from country to country. Or do
you expect that a French oneway sign looks like the German one? (The
German one contains the word "Einbahnstraße", the German translation of
oneway) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_220-20.svg

And even traffic signs without text often look different because
different countries use different fonts.

That's why I suggest to use the country prefixes followed by a number or
the name depending if the country numbers its traffic signs (like
Germany) or not (like Austria).

Best regards

Michael


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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Colin Smale
Only the rectangular blue sign means one way traffic... The round blue one tells you which way to drive at a junction which is subtly different. What is the round red one you have in mind?
--colin

On 28 October 2015 00:30:58 CET, Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:
Also keep in mind there are 2 'oneway' signs. A blue one that can be round or rectangular and a round red one.

2015-10-27 23:05 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>:
Hi Mateusz,

Am Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:58:08 +0100 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> I recently started tagging traffic signs and I am surprised by wide
> usage country-specific traffic sign codes.
>
> I think that at least common signs may be tagged by human-readable
> values. Some (see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_sign#Human-
readable_values
> ) are already used
>
> I propose to add more like
> - traffic_sign=oneway
> - traffic_sign=no_stopping
> - traffic_sign=no_parking

At least the oneway sign looks different from country to country. Or do
you expect that a French oneway sign looks like the German one? (The
German one contains the word "Einbahnstraße", the German translation of
oneway) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_220-20.svg

And even traffic signs without text often look different because
different countries use different fonts.

That's why I suggest to use the country prefixes followed by a number or
the name depending if the country numbers its traffic signs (like
Germany) or not (like Austria).

Best regards

Michael


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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Mateusz Konieczny-2
In reply to this post by Jo-2
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 00:30:58 +0100
Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Also keep in mind there are 2 'oneway' signs. A blue one that can be
> round or rectangular and a round red one.

Can you specify country that has "round red one" oneway sign? And how
it differs from normal oneway sign? Is there meaning for normal oneway
sign that strongly differs from meaning in other countries?

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Mateusz Konieczny-2
In reply to this post by Michael Reichert
On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 22:05:22 +0000 (UTC)
Michael Reichert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Mateusz,
>
> Am Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:58:08 +0100 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> > I recently started tagging traffic signs and I am surprised by wide
> > usage country-specific traffic sign codes.
> >
> > I think that at least common signs may be tagged by human-readable
> > values. Some (see
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_sign#Human-
> readable_values
> > ) are already used
> >
> > I propose to add more like
> > - traffic_sign=oneway
> > - traffic_sign=no_stopping
> > - traffic_sign=no_parking
>
> At least the oneway sign looks different from country to country. Or
> do you expect that a French oneway sign looks like the German one?
> (The German one contains the word "Einbahnstraße", the German
> translation of oneway)
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_220-20.svg
>
> And even traffic signs without text often look different because
> different countries use different fonts.

I expect that how sign looks may differ, in some cases strongly
and that meaning may subtly change (is it applying also to organized
pedestrian groups? etc).

But I expect that general meaning (announcing way that is oneway for
vehicles) would be the same.

Also, one may use for example traffic_sign_code to tag exact reference
allowing for country specific data processing (for example
[traffic_sign=oneway, traffic_sign_code=PL:D-3]).

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

dieterdreist

2015-10-28 7:12 GMT+01:00 Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
Also, one may use for example traffic_sign_code to tag exact reference
allowing for country specific data processing (for example
[traffic_sign=oneway, traffic_sign_code=PL:D-3]).


one might use this tag traffic_sign_code=*, but it's not what people are doing so far. There are just 2 instances of this key, but there are 343.000 traffic_sign tags, most of them being "city_limit", 2nd place "maxspeed" and most of the rest are country dependent codes: http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/traffic_sign#values

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-2
Perhaps he (Jo) is referring to the no entrance sign on the other end of the oneway ? 

regards

m

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 00:30:58 +0100
Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Also keep in mind there are 2 'oneway' signs. A blue one that can be
> round or rectangular and a round red one.

Can you specify country that has "round red one" oneway sign? And how
it differs from normal oneway sign? Is there meaning for normal oneway
sign that strongly differs from meaning in other countries?

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Mateusz Konieczny-2
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:48:46 +0100
Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2015-10-28 7:12 GMT+01:00 Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Also, one may use for example traffic_sign_code to tag exact
> > reference allowing for country specific data processing (for example
> > [traffic_sign=oneway, traffic_sign_code=PL:D-3]).
> >
>
>
> one might use this tag traffic_sign_code=*, but it's not what people
> are doing so far. There are just 2 instances of this key, but there
> are 343.000 traffic_sign tags, most of them being "city_limit", 2nd
> place "maxspeed" and most of the rest are country dependent codes:
> http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/traffic_sign#values
>
> Cheers,
> Martin

That is a new tag thar I just proposed (and used two times), so it is
not weird that it is not widely used.

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Jo-2
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
If we can reach consensus on the use of traffic_sign_code, it would not be hard to perform a mechanical edit to move them over (and populate the traffic_sign) with human readable values.

Such a script would not touch 'ambiguous' data, of course and leave that to humans.

The tricky part is making a good proposal. Not overly hard for many of the traffic signs, Quite a challenge for all the sub signs in the various languages...

Polyglot



2015-10-28 9:48 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:

2015-10-28 7:12 GMT+01:00 Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
Also, one may use for example traffic_sign_code to tag exact reference
allowing for country specific data processing (for example
[traffic_sign=oneway, traffic_sign_code=PL:D-3]).


one might use this tag traffic_sign_code=*, but it's not what people are doing so far. There are just 2 instances of this key, but there are 343.000 traffic_sign tags, most of them being "city_limit", 2nd place "maxspeed" and most of the rest are country dependent codes: http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/traffic_sign#values

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Marc Gemis

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:
The tricky part is making a good proposal. Not overly hard for many of the traffic signs, Quite a challenge for all the sub signs in the various languages...

which will probably take us back to the heavy discussion  on "Aangelanden". :-/

regards

m

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

John F. Eldredge
In reply to this post by Colin Smale

I think he is referring to the "do not enter" sign, a red circle with a horizontal white bar.

--
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

On October 27, 2015 9:13:40 PM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Only the rectangular blue sign means one way traffic... The round blue one tells you which way to drive at a junction which is subtly different. What is the round red one you have in mind?
--colin

On 28 October 2015 00:30:58 CET, Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:
Also keep in mind there are 2 'oneway' signs. A blue one that can be round or rectangular and a round red one.

2015-10-27 23:05 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>:
Hi Mateusz,

Am Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:58:08 +0100 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> I recently started tagging traffic signs and I am surprised by wide
> usage country-specific traffic sign codes.
>
> I think that at least common signs may be tagged by human-readable
> values. Some (see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_sign#Human-
readable_values
> ) are already used
>
> I propose to add more like
> - traffic_sign=oneway
> - traffic_sign=no_stopping
> - traffic_sign=no_parking

At least the oneway sign looks different from country to country. Or do
you expect that a French oneway sign looks like the German one? (The
German one contains the word "Einbahnstraße", the German translation of
oneway) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_220-20.svg

And even traffic signs without text often look different because
different countries use different fonts.

That's why I suggest to use the country prefixes followed by a number or
the name depending if the country numbers its traffic signs (like
Germany) or not (like Austria).

Best regards

Michael


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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Michael Reichert
Michael Reichert wrote:
> That's why I suggest to use the country prefixes followed by a number
> or the name depending if the country numbers its traffic signs (like
> Germany) or not (like Austria).

There's no need to do that. OSM is a spatial database: you can find out whether a sign is to the German design or the Austrian design by querying whether the node is in Germany or Austria. Requiring the mapper to add prefixes shifts the burden from the data consumer to the mapper, which is against the principles of OSM.

Of course, if someone has erected an Austrian traffic sign in Germany, that might be a good reason to use a country prefix. :) I saw a shop in Switzerland that had made traffic signs into stools...

cheers
Richard

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Colin Smale
How can that spatial lookup be made very cheaply? How long will it take to do a point-in-polygon for every road sign in Europe? I understand one should not denormalise lightly, but it is sometimes justifiable. We need to keep the data easily consumable as well. Saying that two extra characters in the tagging will present an unreasonable barrier to mappers is stretching a point I think.
By the way, there are plenty of road signs in Europe erected by a foreign power. Typically as you approach a border, especially if there is a junction or services soon after the border.

On 29 October 2015 21:05:18 CET, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
Michael Reichert wrote:
That's why I suggest to use the country prefixes followed by a number
or the name depending if the country numbers its traffic signs (like
Germany) or not (like Austria).

There's no need to do that. OSM is a spatial database: you can find out
whether a sign is to the German design or the Austrian design by querying
whether the node is in Germany or Austria. Requiring the mapper to add
prefixes shifts the burden from the data consumer to the mapper, which is
against the principles of OSM.

Of course, if someone has erected an Austrian traffic sign in Germany, that
might be a good reason to use a country prefix. :) I saw a shop in
Switzerland that had made traffic signs into stools...

cheers
Richard





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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Richard Fairhurst
On 29/10/2015 20:40, Colin Smale wrote:
> How can that spatial lookup be made very cheaply? How long will it take
> to do a point-in-polygon for every road sign in Europe?

It's very cheap. I do polyline-in-polygon for every single road and path
I render on cycle.travel, because I have different rendering styles for
urban and rural areas. The polygons (160,000 in Western Europe) are a
significantly more complex dataset than countries would be, yet the
query to update the roads is trivial, and plenty fast considering it's
every single road.

Do you have hands-on experience in the subject that counters that?

 > I understand one
 > should not denormalise lightly, but it is sometimes justifiable. We need
 > to keep the data easily consumable as well. Saying that two extra
 > characters in the tagging will present an unreasonable barrier to
 > mappers is stretching a point I think.

It's very easy for you, as an experienced mapper, to say that. Wikipedia
is a salutary lesson in what happens to projects who start to tilt the
editing experience principally towards the experienced.

"Since 2007... well-intentioned newcomers are far less likely to still
be editing Wikipedia two months after their first try."

http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/520446/the-decline-of-wikipedia/

Richard


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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Colin Smale

 

 

I don't have any examples to counter your statement. But I am assuming you are referring to the use of a spatial database. It is IMHO a high barrier to entry. Are we to expect users to have that kind of infrastructure and skills at their disposal? What about mkgmap and the many other consumers which simply work with a snapshot in PBF or XML and need to be able to do the right thing with the data with lets say a dual core and 8GB. I am just trying to stick up for the little guy...

Mappers should be helped to tag correctly by the editing tools. Any additional "burden" on the mapper could easily be absorbed by tools such as JOSM providing context-sensitive dropdowns for example - when adding a node for a traffic sign it could be aware of what country it is in and allow the mapper to choose a government-normalised sign from a list, with a "Custom..." override and the ability to select common options from a list, again with an override for specials. 99% of the signs could be handled in a structured way, making it easy for the mapper to do the right thing and giving a positive boost to data quality/consistency.

Anyway, as far as I know OSM is the data, not any particular (database) manifestation of it...

//colin

On 2015-10-29 21:56, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

On 29/10/2015 20:40, Colin Smale wrote:
How can that spatial lookup be made very cheaply? How long will it take
to do a point-in-polygon for every road sign in Europe?

It's very cheap. I do polyline-in-polygon for every single road and path I render on cycle.travel, because I have different rendering styles for urban and rural areas. The polygons (160,000 in Western Europe) are a significantly more complex dataset than countries would be, yet the query to update the roads is trivial, and plenty fast considering it's every single road.

Do you have hands-on experience in the subject that counters that?

I understand one
should not denormalise lightly, but it is sometimes justifiable. We need
to keep the data easily consumable as well. Saying that two extra
characters in the tagging will present an unreasonable barrier to
mappers is stretching a point I think.

It's very easy for you, as an experienced mapper, to say that. Wikipedia is a salutary lesson in what happens to projects who start to tilt the editing experience principally towards the experienced.

"Since 2007... well-intentioned newcomers are far less likely to still be editing Wikipedia two months after their first try."

http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/520446/the-decline-of-wikipedia/

Richard


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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

Richard Fairhurst
On 29/10/2015 21:52, Colin Smale wrote:
> I don't have any examples to counter your statement. But I am assuming
> you are referring to the use of a spatial database.  It is IMHO a high
> barrier to entry. Are we to expect users to have that kind of
> infrastructure and skills at their disposal? What about mkgmap and the
> many other consumers which simply work with a snapshot in PBF or XML and
> need to be able to do the right thing with the data with lets say a dual
> core and 8GB.

Indeed. It's very possible to "do the right thing" by running spatial
queries on the data, without a spatial database, working directly on a
PBF snapshot, and running lightning fast in just a few GB of memory and
on a desktop-class machine.

I can confirm this because I've done exactly that, in a tool which I'm
delighted to see is proving popular:
https://github.com/systemed/tilemaker, and in particular,
https://github.com/systemed/tilemaker/blob/master/CONFIGURATION.md#lua-spatial-queries 
.

That aside, even if you accept that the interests of the data consumer
are paramount - which, as a data consumer, I don't, and I'm rather tired
of tagfiddlers without development knowledge second-guessing what
developers might need - the number of consumers to whom it's important
to differentiate (say) UK and French no entry signs is an 0.001% edge
case, not one worthy of defining the entire tagging model.

You could just as well argue that you're penalising the little guy by
preventing him from searching simply for "traffic_sign=no_entry" and
making him search either for 193 country-specific values, or run one
full-text query. Given your concern about doing things "very cheaply",
I'm pretty sure more people have a spatial index on OSM data than have a
full-text index.

But let's remind ourselves of Mateusz's original posting:

> I recently started tagging traffic signs and I am surprised by wide
> usage country-specific traffic sign codes.
>
> I think that at least common signs may be tagged by human-readable
> values.

Quite.

Richard

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Re: More human readable values for traffic signs

André Pirard-2
In reply to this post by John F. Eldredge
On 2015-10-29 21:00, John Eldredge wrote :

I think he is referring to the "do not enter" sign, a red circle with a horizontal white bar.

Jo sometimes speaks vaguely and publishes search/guessing exercises ;-)  . What he means is:
Also keep in mind there are 2 'oneway' signs. A blue one that can be round or rectangular [an information sign] and a round red one [a prohibitory sign].
The rectangular F19 is disputably classified as "information" because it in fact also prohibits driving in the other way and hence to U-turn.
The no-U-turn sign C33 might be thought of as one-way, but it is not (it doesn't forbid other cars going contra-way).
There is no round one-way sign that I know of.  But, of course, a follow the direction ahead D1 placed withing a street (not at a crossing) amounts to a no-U-turn with the same remarks as for F19.

Once again, such a specialists' controverted discussion makes  one thing certain:  those fuzzy road signals must certainly never be used for routing (restrictions).  oneway=yes is much more obvious and foolproof.  And it allows software to represent corresponding signals without any need to tag them if someone likes to turn that option on (with the risk of having two instead of one).  Remember the noexit=yes story !!!

Cheers

André.




--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

On October 27, 2015 9:13:40 PM Colin Smale [hidden email] wrote:

Only the rectangular blue sign means one way traffic... The round blue one tells you which way to drive at a junction which is subtly different. What is the round red one you have in mind?
--colin

On 28 October 2015 00:30:58 CET, Jo [hidden email] wrote:
Also keep in mind there are 2 'oneway' signs. A blue one that can be round or rectangular and a round red one.

2015-10-27 23:05 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert <[hidden email]>:
Hi Mateusz,

Am Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:58:08 +0100 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> I recently started tagging traffic signs and I am surprised by wide
> usage country-specific traffic sign codes.
>
> I think that at least common signs may be tagged by human-readable
> values. Some (see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_sign#Human-
readable_values
> ) are already used
>
> I propose to add more like
> - traffic_sign=oneway
> - traffic_sign=no_stopping
> - traffic_sign=no_parking

At least the oneway sign looks different from country to country. Or do
you expect that a French oneway sign looks like the German one? (The
German one contains the word "Einbahnstraße", the German translation of
oneway) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_220-20.svg

And even traffic signs without text often look different because
different countries use different fonts.

That's why I suggest to use the country prefixes followed by a number or
the name depending if the country numbers its traffic signs (like
Germany) or not (like Austria).

Best regards

Michael


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