Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

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Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Ben Proctor-2
Hi everyone

I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual tagging in Wales.

In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some (online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.

The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has been an area of discussion. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.

[starts/---]
In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local population uses.

name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh language.)

The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.
[---/ends]

From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):

[starts/---]
In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.

name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in English.
name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in Welsh

Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:

name: Swansea
name:en Swansea
name:cy Abertawe

This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.
[---/ends]

Our Reasoning
Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in Welsh or English.

We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags.

The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by processing name:en and name:cy tags.

We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or misconstrued.

Cheers

Ben

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Re: Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Jez Nicholson
Just being Devil's Advocate....a) how do you decide on-the-ground what the name by which the place is widely known in Wales is? i.e. is it on signage, etc.? b) could it start an edit war if someone with strong views decided to use one particular language for every 'name' attribute? c) are there precedents for other countries in OSM?

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:06 PM Ben Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone

I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual tagging in Wales.

In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some (online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.

The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has been an area of discussion. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.

[starts/---]
In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local population uses.

name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh language.)

The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.
[---/ends]

From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):

[starts/---]
In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.

name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in English.
name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in Welsh

Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:

name: Swansea
name:en Swansea
name:cy Abertawe

This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.
[---/ends]

Our Reasoning
Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in Welsh or English.

We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags.

The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by processing name:en and name:cy tags.

We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or misconstrued.

Cheers

Ben
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Re: Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Great Britain mailing list
In reply to this post by Ben Proctor-2
In case of name where there is a language specific tag,
repeating name tag in language specific tag
is useful, welcome and a good idea.

I even run into a case where it was needed to render map as expected
(Polish labels, with fallback to English ones)

-----

I am unable to comment on Wales-specific
part.

-----


"So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru"

It suggests that it is perfectly fine to
make edit changing country name.

Maybe some other example would be better?

For example some specific settlement for
each language?

12 paź 2020, 15:04 od [hidden email]:
Hi everyone

I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual tagging in Wales.

In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some (online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.

The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has been an area of discussion. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.

[starts/---]
In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local population uses.

name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh language.)

The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.
[---/ends]

From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):

[starts/---]
In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.

name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in English.
name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in Welsh

Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:

name: Swansea
name:en Swansea
name:cy Abertawe

This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.
[---/ends]

Our Reasoning
Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in Welsh or English.

We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags.

The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by processing name:en and name:cy tags.

We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or misconstrued.

Cheers

Ben


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Re: Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Great Britain mailing list
In reply to this post by Jez Nicholson
ad b) yes, but we had edit wars about all
kinds of ridiculousness, and this is possible
already and happened in some places

12 paź 2020, 15:21 od [hidden email]:
Just being Devil's Advocate....a) how do you decide on-the-ground what the name by which the place is widely known in Wales is? i.e. is it on signage, etc.? b) could it start an edit war if someone with strong views decided to use one particular language for every 'name' attribute? c) are there precedents for other countries in OSM?

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:06 PM Ben Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone

I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual tagging in Wales.

In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some (online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.

The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has been an area of discussion. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.

[starts/---]
In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local population uses.

name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh language.)

The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.
[---/ends]

From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):

[starts/---]
In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.

name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in English.
name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in Welsh

Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:

name: Swansea
name:en Swansea
name:cy Abertawe

This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.
[---/ends]

Our Reasoning
Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in Welsh or English.

We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags.

The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by processing name:en and name:cy tags.

We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or misconstrued.

Cheers

Ben
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Re: Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Gruff Owen
In reply to this post by Ben Proctor-2
Hi Ben,

Have been lurking in the background of GB-Talk for a little while and just learning the ropes with OSM at the moment. But I have done a bit of reading around the GB-Talk archives on this subject because it's really hard to know what to do with English / Welsh names in some cases.

I come from a background of land management in North Wales where place names are becoming an increasingly hot topic. I'm sure you're already aware of this but for those who are new to the subject this video has been doing the rounds on social media for the past couple of years and broadly outlines people's concerns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLQ6XlG0MQ4.

The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful for this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single name tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has precedence over another. The crux of the topic for me is that maps are never just standalone representations of the physical / political world, they can also influence the world that they represent - they can project influence or take it away. It's perhaps a bit of a naive viewpoint to think that we're just recording what's there without recognising the power that maps have to set in place and increase usage of some place names while eliminating or significantly reducing the use of others.

With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place names where that's possible? I understand that there will be objections to this, but I'm not sure we can disregard it completely as an option?

One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an external body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place names that we can refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language Commissioner provides a recommended list of standardised place names for Wales which is licensed under OGL 3.0:

http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx

All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM and not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't go against the group decision on this and have been quite conservative with my edits so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. Overall I think you should be congratulated for broaching the subject and trying to pin down a policy on it as it really does stir up a lot of strong sentiment in this part of the world! 

All the best,

Gruff



On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone

I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual tagging in Wales.

In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some (online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.

The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has been an area of discussion. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.

[starts/---]
In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local population uses.

name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh language.)

The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.
[---/ends]

From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):

[starts/---]
In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.

name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in English.
name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in Welsh

Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:

name: Swansea
name:en Swansea
name:cy Abertawe

This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.
[---/ends]

Our Reasoning
Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in Welsh or English.

We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags.

The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by processing name:en and name:cy tags.

We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or misconstrued.

Cheers

Ben
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Re: Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

David Woolley
On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
> With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If
> we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and
> that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to
> respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't.
> Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place
> names where that's possible? I understand that there will be objections
> to this, but I'm not sure we can disregard it completely as an option?
>

My understanding of how it works is that it is up to the local
communities to ensure that road signs, etc., in the local area, reflect
the community preferences, and OSM will reflect whatever the signage
says.  This is even more important in areas where people are shelling
each other over such issues.  Using what is on the ground is the only
way that OSM can avoid taking sides.

There is nothing to stop a Welsh language supporter running a map tile
server that uses name:cy, in preference to name, where it exists.

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Re: Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Edward Bainton
I was going to suggest a cy-preferring tileserver, too. Possibly something the Welsh govt would be willing to fund? Could it even be hosted at cy.openstreetmap.org?

As a practical question, how does the on-the-ground criterion work in Welsh cases where street signs are bilingual? I ask out of interest only: I'm not local to Wales or nearby.

E.g., a quick image search shows some signs reading "Welcome to Wrexham / Croeso i Wrecsam", and some with the languages the other way round.


On Fri, 16 Oct 2020, 14:31 David Woolley, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
> With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If
> we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and
> that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to
> respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't.
> Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place
> names where that's possible? I understand that there will be objections
> to this, but I'm not sure we can disregard it completely as an option?
>

My understanding of how it works is that it is up to the local
communities to ensure that road signs, etc., in the local area, reflect
the community preferences, and OSM will reflect whatever the signage
says.  This is even more important in areas where people are shelling
each other over such issues.  Using what is on the ground is the only
way that OSM can avoid taking sides.

There is nothing to stop a Welsh language supporter running a map tile
server that uses name:cy, in preference to name, where it exists.

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Re: Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Andy Mabbett
On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 at 15:32, Edward Bainton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I was going to suggest a cy-preferring tileserver, too. Possibly something
> the Welsh govt would be willing to fund? Could it even be hosted at
> cy.openstreetmap.org?

It already exists, at:

   https://openstreetmap.cymru/

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by David Woolley
On Fri, 2020-10-16 at 14:28 +0100, David Woolley wrote:

> On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
> > With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little.
> > If
> > we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh
> > and
> > that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an
> > opportunity to
> > respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers
> > didn't.
> > Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh
> > place
> > names where that's possible? I understand that there will be
> > objections
> > to this, but I'm not sure we can disregard it completely as an
> > option?
> >
>
> My understanding of how it works is that it is up to the local
> communities to ensure that road signs, etc., in the local area,
> reflect
> the community preferences, and OSM will reflect whatever the signage
> says.  
I am Welsh, live in England in a town which shares a border with
Wrexham borough so am a frequent visitor to both North and Mid Wales.

My family lost Welsh as a language during the days of the Welsh Not so
totally support the language.

That used to be the case, at least at county level, there was the rule
of thumb Araf on top then Cymraig, Slow on to then English.

That has changed in recent years and in general as signs are changed
then Cymraig is on top. Local knowledge tells me that changing
Welshpool to Y Trallwng is probably not going to make OSM more useful
to our end users which has to be the primary focus of how we map
things. OSM is not a plaything/hobby project.

Adding name:cy tags should be encouraged, I added quite a lot locally.
For my nearest Welsh Village I found the name Llys Bedydd on the sign
outside the church, its not on any roadsign and I doubt my local
doctors would recognise it even though they do cover Bettisfield.

https://openstreetmap.cymru/ still exists although the project seems to
have died, probably the grant ran out.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Gruff Owen
Hi Gruff, hi Ben,

On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:

The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful for this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single name tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has precedence over another.

Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence over another".  If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for everyone to use.  It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map using only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out, https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly that already).  Other maps can choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in others (see https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9&lat=51.93&lon=-4.182 for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or English-first, or use different colours for different languages, or, or...

The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map.


With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place names where that's possible?

OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral - see https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf .  It favours "on the ground" current usage.  The Data Working Group gets _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of country X is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be displayed at osm.org in language Y".  Where the majority of people in an area speak a different language to the majority of people in the rest of the country, it is only fair to reflect that local language in the "name" tag.  OSM should not be making decisions about which placenames are more "authentic" than others via some sort of "historical authenticity test".  Imagine trying to apply that to Kaliningrad https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442 (look at all the "old_name" tags there for context).  In Wales, OSM has occasionally had mappers making "forced language changes" both ways - either changing names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh versions of the original English and English speakers changing original (and most common in local usage) Welsh names to English versions.

One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an external body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place names that we can refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language Commissioner provides a recommended list of standardised place names for Wales which is licensed under OGL 3.0:

http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx

Different OSM communities do this in different ways.  I believe that in Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from local usage.  Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin "Anglesea Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's just "Bóthar Anglesea".  See also https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which I've heard referred to as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics both national and local associated with that).


All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM and not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't go against the group decision on this and have been quite conservative with my edits so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. Overall I think you should be congratulated for broaching the subject and trying to pin down a policy on it as it really does stir up a lot of strong sentiment in this part of the world! 

As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making sure that Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently are not.  It always strikes me as a bit jarring to see English names jumping out in predominantly Welsh areas at https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ (which will use the default "name" tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's trying to show Welsh names).

Moving on to Ben's original mail:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:

From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):

[starts/---]
In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.

Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a place is known in Welsh-speaking areas as one name and in English-speaking areas as another.  In OSM typically the "name" tag would be set according to the locally-used language, so "Yr Wyddfa" for https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169 makes sense to me.

That gets tricky for areas that include multiple languages - https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437 is currently "name=Cymru / Wales" in OSM, but I'll let people who are actually from that area comment on whether that's appropriate or not.



name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in English.
name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is known in Welsh

Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:

name: Swansea
name:en Swansea
name:cy Abertawe

This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.
[---/ends]

I'd agree that that bit (duplicating names) does make sense for essentially the same reasons as you - so that people do know that "yes there is an English name" and "yes there is a Welsh name".  Otherwise if someone was to change the name there to "name=Swansea / Abertawe" it would break map.atownsend.org.uk which explicitly tries not to show compound names in Wales, England or Scotland.  Someone who does want to show compound names can of course do that using "name:cy / name:en".  For completeness, as you also mention, some OSM communities do use compound names.  The Brussels region of Belgium is another example, and hyphenated names there are I believe "the official names".  That sort of tagging hasn't traditionally been done in Wales, England, or Scotland though.

Best Regards,

Andy

For completeness - I'm both a member of OSM's Data Working Group who tend to handle some of these language disputes and separately to that the developer of https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ .


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