My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
13 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Ulrich Lamm
Ten hours ago, user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm has banned me for TEN YAERS!
For what?
For mapping courses of water.
Before, he had blocked me or using database data.
I ceased to enter figures that were available from databasaes only.
Then he blocked me for using figures from PDFs that could be called database, though indeed they have the status of any printwork.
I ceased to enter fiigures from such PDFs.

And in the las weeks I worked on courses of water in the country of Brandenburg.
In brandenburg, there is no sophisticated official presentation of the courses of water (Gwent25 is very vague.).
At about 1900, almost the whlole network of courses of water was open air.
During 20th century, long sections have been hidden in culverts, most of them closely following the old courses and alike them the relief of the ground.
So I concluded the hidden parts of the courses of water from old maps and from the relief of the ground (which I saw from maps but which is nevertheless of to visits of the places).
A well as the relief, changes of colour of the ground and plants (especially grass and cereals) can be seen by visits of the places.
I cases where I was not sure, I have phoned the maintaining companies, the Wasser- und Boden-Verbände (WBV).

This way, my mapping of courses of water including the culvert sections does not violate the principles of OSM.
And the ban is totally injust.

Best regards
Ulrich Lamm
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

marc marc
Le 25.06.19 à 10:16, Ulrich Lamm a écrit :
> the ban is totally injust.

add injust=maybe
or
find a better place to talk about not-related-to-tags stuff
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

SimonPoole
Besides being off-topic here, 99.9% of the background is missing.
Perma-bans for contributors in OSM are extremely rare and definitely not
imposed lightly, just as they are not in this case: see
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ulamm/blocks for just a tiny bit of
the very long story behind this.

Am 25.06.2019 um 10:27 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 25.06.19 à 10:16, Ulrich Lamm a écrit :
>> the ban is totally injust.
> add injust=maybe
> or
> find a better place to talk about not-related-to-tags stuff
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

signature.asc (499 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Ulrich Lamm
On Tuesday 25 June 2019, Ulrich Lamm wrote:
> Ten hours ago, user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm has banned me for TEN
> YAERS! For what?
> For mapping courses of water.
> Before, he had blocked me or using database data.
> [...]

For competeness of information and for everyone to properly assess this,
the block history of user ulamm:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ulamm/blocks

And the OSMF ban policy describing the procedures regarding such
actions:

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Ban_Policy

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Florian Lohoff-2
In reply to this post by Ulrich Lamm

Hi Ulrich,

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:16:18AM +0200, Ulrich Lamm wrote:
> This way, my mapping of courses of water including the culvert
> sections does not violate the principles of OSM.  And the ban is
> totally injust.

It violates the rights of the origin copyright holder. CC-BY-SA and
others are not compatible with ODbL and thus we CAN NOT and MUST NOT
take data from other sources which are not explicitly allowed. If we
would allow this, and republishing data under ODbL (as OSM does with
planet dumps) Openstreetmap commits a breach of Copyright. Thus it is
absolutely vital for OSM to prevent people from adding incompatible, non
ODbL Data to the Database.

You have been told to not take data from other sources which are not
ODbL multiple times and you havent stopped.

Now Frederik (with my full support) stopped this repeated copyright
violation by blocking/banning you.

BTW - You signed these obligations with creating an OSM Account
and opting in the Contributor Terms.

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Contributor_Terms

        1. We respect the intellectual property rights of others and we need to
        be able to respond to any objections by intellectual property owners. This
        means that:

        (a) Your contribution of data should not infringe the intellectual property
        rights of anyone else. If you contribute Contents, You are indicating that, as
        far as You know, You have the right to authorize OSMF to use and distribute
        those Contents under our current licence terms. If You do not have that right,
        You risk having Your contribution deleted (see below).

You have multiple times been told that you do NOT have the right to redistribute
this data under the current license (ODbL).

Flo
--
Florian Lohoff                                                 [hidden email]
        UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

signature.asc (849 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Mateusz Konieczny-3

25 Jun 2019, 11:18 by [hidden email]:

Hi Ulrich,

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:16:18AM +0200, Ulrich Lamm wrote:
This way, my mapping of courses of water including the culvert
sections does not violate the principles of OSM. And the ban is
totally injust.

It violates the rights of the origin copyright holder.
It violates also our right to have a database free from copyright violations.

Also, complaining about your ban is completely offtopic on this mailing list.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Ulrich Lamm
Hello Ulrich,

this is offtopic here but I'd like to say something anyway since you
started the discussion here.

Your are blocked from editing until we can trust you to respect our
rules. This is a process that has to happen in your head. I would have
hoped that you understood the issue but time and time again you have
demonstrated that you did not.

You cannot continue to use one inadmissible source and then when you're
told this is wrong, use a different inadmissible source and so on ad
infinitum. This is not a contest of who finds a loophole. Use your own
knowledge, or use public domain (or suitably licensed) sources; and
always add a source tag that lets people verify your source. All these
relations you're adding about complex waterway systems and their names -
these can impossibly all be your knowledge so you're copying them from
somewhere and if you don't say where from then we must assume it's an
inadmissible source.

Since all your mapping is in Germany, please go to the German mailing
list or German forum to discuss what exactly you are doing with your
waterway mapping and what your data sources and processes are, and then
if we find a way forward that will not lead to lots of complaints to DWG
about your work, we can lift the ban on your account and let you
continue. But simply letting you continue after a couple days, like we
did in the past, has sadly not helped.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Tagging mailing list
Shameless plug:


At least in Germany copyright does have limits, so an individual
may use/recite/remix parts of a copyrighted work or database, in
particular for non-commercial and scientific use - just as it is
popular to cite and quote parts of scientific publications in
others. See in particular Unterabschnitt 4 "Gesetzlich erlaubte
Nutzungen für Unterricht, Wissenschaft und Institutionen" of
UrhG [1] (link in German only, sorry).

I don't know to what extent this is applicable for an international
project such as OSM, but there are fair-use and non-commercial ex-
ceptions in the copyright statutes of many countries, that generally
may apply to what has been practised and afterwards ban'ed here.

So while a systematic copy of an ODBl non-compatible work or database
for sure breaks OSM rules, researching for individual names or generic
geographic facts (that are also verifiable on-ground e.g.) does not.

Merely reusing names of watercourses is not a breach of copyright, if
you research them in non-database publications _or_ if you do copy
few excerpts (UrhG speaks of 15% for scientific, non-commercial use)
out of a foreign database dedicated to listing watercourse names and
their history (and that is non-ODBl compatible).


However, not supplying a source or explanation for others to validate
the changes made in a changeset, is hindering others to find and fix
mistakes later on.  So even if the above may grant some use of other-
wise incompatible data sources -to a specific an often fuzzy extent-,
it surely does not grant using foreign sources without attribution.


I'm not a lawyer, so you have to validate the claims made yourself
if you do want to use foreign sources based on those claims (!).

In any case it may be easier to use PD sources, like Frederik suggested,
but license-incompatible sources are /not/ sacredly forbidden by default
if you adhere to some principles outlined in UrhG and consider the legal
type and status of the organisational aspect of OSM.


Greetings
cmuelle8

[1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/BJNR012730965.html#BJNR012730965BJNG004800123



> Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2019 um 12:19 Uhr
> Von: "Frederik Ramm" <[hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm
>
> You cannot continue to use one inadmissible source and then when you're
> told this is wrong, use a different inadmissible source and so on ad
> infinitum. This is not a contest of who finds a loophole.


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Marc Gemis
Since OSM is used in commercial products, all exceptions you mention
for non-commercial use is not applicable.

The debate of many persons copying 1 fact from another database has
been discussed in the past, but OSM always tries to err on the safe
side. IMHO It would be more damaging to the project to have to remove
data when a company or organisation start filing copyright claims (as
there is no money to pay lawyers).

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 12:04 AM "Christian Müller" via Tagging
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Shameless plug:
>
>
> At least in Germany copyright does have limits, so an individual
> may use/recite/remix parts of a copyrighted work or database, in
> particular for non-commercial and scientific use - just as it is
> popular to cite and quote parts of scientific publications in
> others. See in particular Unterabschnitt 4 "Gesetzlich erlaubte
> Nutzungen für Unterricht, Wissenschaft und Institutionen" of
> UrhG [1] (link in German only, sorry).
>
> I don't know to what extent this is applicable for an international
> project such as OSM, but there are fair-use and non-commercial ex-
> ceptions in the copyright statutes of many countries, that generally
> may apply to what has been practised and afterwards ban'ed here.
>
> So while a systematic copy of an ODBl non-compatible work or database
> for sure breaks OSM rules, researching for individual names or generic
> geographic facts (that are also verifiable on-ground e.g.) does not.
>
> Merely reusing names of watercourses is not a breach of copyright, if
> you research them in non-database publications _or_ if you do copy
> few excerpts (UrhG speaks of 15% for scientific, non-commercial use)
> out of a foreign database dedicated to listing watercourse names and
> their history (and that is non-ODBl compatible).
>
>
> However, not supplying a source or explanation for others to validate
> the changes made in a changeset, is hindering others to find and fix
> mistakes later on.  So even if the above may grant some use of other-
> wise incompatible data sources -to a specific an often fuzzy extent-,
> it surely does not grant using foreign sources without attribution.
>
>
> I'm not a lawyer, so you have to validate the claims made yourself
> if you do want to use foreign sources based on those claims (!).
>
> In any case it may be easier to use PD sources, like Frederik suggested,
> but license-incompatible sources are /not/ sacredly forbidden by default
> if you adhere to some principles outlined in UrhG and consider the legal
> type and status of the organisational aspect of OSM.
>
>
> Greetings
> cmuelle8
>
> [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/BJNR012730965.html#BJNR012730965BJNG004800123
>
>
>
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2019 um 12:19 Uhr
> > Von: "Frederik Ramm" <[hidden email]>
> > An: [hidden email]
> > Betreff: Re: [Tagging] My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm
> >
> > You cannot continue to use one inadmissible source and then when you're
> > told this is wrong, use a different inadmissible source and so on ad
> > infinitum. This is not a contest of who finds a loophole.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
26 Jun 2019, 00:01 by [hidden email]:
in particular for non-commercial and scientific use
This are not relevant at all, OSM data is not restricted in how it can be used.
I don't know to what extent this is applicable for an international
project such as OSM, but there are fair-use and non-commercial ex-
ceptions in the copyright statutes of many countries
Both have limitations that make incompatible with OSM licensing
requirements.
Merely reusing names of watercourses is not a breach of copyright, if
you research them in non-database publications
OSM is a database
_or_ if you do copy
few excerpts
This way lies madness, as there is  no way to ensure that only one user copied
something. Multiple users copying only few excerpts each is not allowed.
(UrhG speaks of 15% for scientific, non-commercial use)
How many for commercial use?


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Frederik Ramm
At this point the discussion should really be continued

(a) under another subject and
(b) on a different mailing list (maybe legal-talk?)

Bye
Frederik

On 26.06.19 07:16, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

> 26 Jun 2019, 00:01 by [hidden email]:
>
>     in particular for non-commercial and scientific use
>
> This are not relevant at all, OSM data is not restricted in how it can
> be used.
>
>     I don't know to what extent this is applicable for an international
>     project such as OSM, but there are fair-use and non-commercial ex-
>     ceptions in the copyright statutes of many countries
>
> Both have limitations that make incompatible with OSM licensing
> requirements.
>
>     Merely reusing names of watercourses is not a breach of copyright, if
>     you research them in non-database publications
>
> OSM is a database
>
>     _or_ if you do copy
>     few excerpts
>
> This way lies madness, as there is  no way to ensure that only one user
> copied
> something. Multiple users copying only few excerpts each is not allowed.
>
>     (UrhG speaks of 15% for scientific, non-commercial use)
>
> How many for commercial use?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Marc Gemis
The intriguing question is:

Does use of OSM in commercial products make
OSM a commercial product?  IMHO it does not.

This would blow any license like PD, BSD, etc.:

Just because companies /use/ what's available
on an open basis, doesn't change the status of
the objects used.  The OSM foundation e.g. is a
UK based /non-profit/ organization.

A more popular example: There's BSD code in MS
products - does this close down the BSD code!?


Don't get me wrong:  I agree with you in that it
is more of a hazzle for OSM to repeat something
like that awful redaction process driven by a bot
in the past.  But on the other hand there's harm
to the same extent if we try to make OSM data as
/sterile/ as possible as to survive any legal
threat.  OSM is part of this world and as an eco-
system driven by many individuals a sum of data
(and to some extent "thought") exchange by these
individuals.  IMHO it's ridiculous to try to put
a copyright tag on each and every geographic
toponym, just because someone claims it's a
trademark of his.  If we attribute each and
every word of natural language to someone in
this world holding some kind of lock on it,
there'd be no OSM at all.  Or in other words:
This project will never be free of any legal
risk (just as any other open source project
will not).


Greetings
cmuelle8

> Sent on Wednesday, 06/26/19 by "Marc Gemis" <[hidden email]>
>
> Since OSM is used in commercial products, all exceptions you mention
> for non-commercial use is not applicable.
>
> The debate of many persons copying 1 fact from another database has
> been discussed in the past, but OSM always tries to err on the safe
> side. IMHO It would be more damaging to the project to have to remove
> data when a company or organisation start filing copyright claims (as
> there is no money to pay lawyers).


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: My ban by user Woodpeck = Frederik Ramm

Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 6/29/19 08:05, "Christian Müller" via Tagging wrote:
> The intriguing question is:

Please (again!), move this to legal-talk or elsewhere. It has no place
on the tagging list.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging