NPE data

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NPE data

Paul Churchley
I have come across some data tagged as source=npe. I know what the NPE maps are but my question is a bit of a newbies one... why is NPE data mapped on OSM if it is so old?

I have just mapped an area for a customer of mine and there is a stream mapped running right through the centre of his property. It is tagged source=npe. The stream is no longer there and hasn't been for the 20 or so years he has owned the property.

The old stream is showing up on OSM rendered tiles. His properly is a caravan site and so it would be good if his property did not have a stream that no longer exists running through it as it suggests that it might flood... which it doesn't.

What is the situation regarding npe data? Can it be removed? Obviously I would just remove it!!! But is there is a process to get it removed? If it is to be kept, then how can we get the OSM tiles rendered without it showing this old stream? I can see that some specialist tiles might want to show old data like this but I wouldn't have thought it appropriate that normal OSM tiles would need to show this old data would it?

Any help would be appreciated.

Paul

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Re: NPE data

Barnett, Phillip

Paul,

NPE maps were the first backgrounds for the editors other than some quite low res Yahoo imagery of the UK, so people used them for mapping streams/rivers/woods etc back in the day. As you have noticed, they don’t necessarily relate to modern streams – they may have dried up or been culverted/piped long since. They are all over 50 years old, (for copyright reasons) after all.

Yes, if the facts on the ground have changed, then the stream needs to be moved, or removed. No process needed, just use an editor.

 

Note – only remove NPE tagged items if you know they have changed – don’t just do a mass-remove! (That’s in the unlikely event you were planning to write a bot to remove them all!)

Phil

 

 

PHILLIP BARNETT
SERVER MANAGER

200 GRAY'S INN ROAD
LONDON
WC1X 8XZ
UNITED KINGDOM
T +44 207 430 4474
E
[hidden email]
WWW.ITN.CO.UK
P
 Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this email?

 

From: Paul Churchley [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 06 October 2013 16:57
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Talk-GB] NPE data

 

I have come across some data tagged as source=npe. I know what the NPE maps are but my question is a bit of a newbies one... why is NPE data mapped on OSM if it is so old?

I have just mapped an area for a customer of mine and there is a stream mapped running right through the centre of his property. It is tagged source=npe. The stream is no longer there and hasn't been for the 20 or so years he has owned the property.

The old stream is showing up on OSM rendered tiles. His properly is a caravan site and so it would be good if his property did not have a stream that no longer exists running through it as it suggests that it might flood... which it doesn't.

What is the situation regarding npe data? Can it be removed? Obviously I would just remove it!!! But is there is a process to get it removed? If it is to be kept, then how can we get the OSM tiles rendered without it showing this old stream? I can see that some specialist tiles might want to show old data like this but I wouldn't have thought it appropriate that normal OSM tiles would need to show this old data would it?

Any help would be appreciated.

Paul



Please Note:

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Re: NPE data

Robert Scott
In reply to this post by Paul Churchley
On Sunday 06 October 2013, Paul Churchley wrote:
> I have come across some data tagged as source=npe. I know what the NPE maps
> are but my question is a bit of a newbies one... why is NPE data mapped on
> OSM if it is so old?

For a while it was the best we had. But that was some time ago. (2008?)

> I have just mapped an area for a customer of mine and there is a stream
> mapped running right through the centre of his property. It is tagged
> source=npe. The stream is no longer there and hasn't been for the 20 or so
> years he has owned the property.

It should be deleted then.


> What is the situation regarding npe data? Can it be removed? Obviously I
> would just remove it!!! But is there is a process to get it removed?

You select it in the editor and hit "delete".

Or more appropriately, rather than deleting the whole stream you may just need to remove the offending section. You can do this by following it to the point(s) which join up with modern reality, splitting the way there and then deleting the appropriate section.

> If it
> is to be kept, then how can we get the OSM tiles rendered without it
> showing this old stream? I can see that some specialist tiles might want to
> show old data like this but I wouldn't have thought it appropriate that
> normal OSM tiles would need to show this old data would it?

It may take a few hours for the tiles to re-render without the stream and even then you may have the old ones in your browser cache.


robert.

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Re: NPE data

lsces
In reply to this post by Barnett, Phillip
Barnett, Phillip wrote:

> NPE maps were the first backgrounds for the editors other than some quite low
> res Yahoo imagery of the UK, so people used them for mapping
> streams/rivers/woods etc back in the day. As you have noticed, they don’t
> necessarily relate to modern streams – they may have dried up or been
> culverted/piped long since. They are all over 50 years old, (for copyright
> reasons) after all.
>
> Yes, if the facts on the ground have changed, then the stream needs to be moved,
> or removed. No process needed, just use an editor.
>
> Note – only remove NPE tagged items if you know they have changed – don’t just
> do a mass-remove! (That’s in the unlikely event you were planning to write a bot
> to remove them all!)
>

Of cause it would be nice if people could actually tag when a feature ceased to
exist using the end_date tag. This is all important material for the OHM view of
history.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: NPE data

sk53.osm
In reply to this post by Barnett, Phillip
In general waterways mapped with NPE will be rather inaccurate. It is more likely that this stream still exists but is perhaps as much has 200 metres away. Masses of persistent features (notably streams, but also major roads etc) were mapped from NPE maps upto around 2010 when OS OpenData and Bing maps became available. There has been no concerted effort to revise this data: perhaps there should be now!

Jerry


On 6 October 2013 17:23, Barnett, Phillip <[hidden email]> wrote:

Paul,

NPE maps were the first backgrounds for the editors other than some quite low res Yahoo imagery of the UK, so people used them for mapping streams/rivers/woods etc back in the day. As you have noticed, they don’t necessarily relate to modern streams – they may have dried up or been culverted/piped long since. They are all over 50 years old, (for copyright reasons) after all.

Yes, if the facts on the ground have changed, then the stream needs to be moved, or removed. No process needed, just use an editor.

 

Note – only remove NPE tagged items if you know they have changed – don’t just do a mass-remove! (That’s in the unlikely event you were planning to write a bot to remove them all!)

Phil

 

 

PHILLIP BARNETT
SERVER MANAGER

200 GRAY'S INN ROAD
LONDON
WC1X 8XZ
UNITED KINGDOM
T <a href="tel:%2B44%20207%20430%204474" value="+442074304474" target="_blank">+44 207 430 4474
E
[hidden email]
WWW.ITN.CO.UK
P
 Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this email?

 

From: Paul Churchley [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 06 October 2013 16:57
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Talk-GB] NPE data

 

I have come across some data tagged as source=npe. I know what the NPE maps are but my question is a bit of a newbies one... why is NPE data mapped on OSM if it is so old?

I have just mapped an area for a customer of mine and there is a stream mapped running right through the centre of his property. It is tagged source=npe. The stream is no longer there and hasn't been for the 20 or so years he has owned the property.

The old stream is showing up on OSM rendered tiles. His properly is a caravan site and so it would be good if his property did not have a stream that no longer exists running through it as it suggests that it might flood... which it doesn't.

What is the situation regarding npe data? Can it be removed? Obviously I would just remove it!!! But is there is a process to get it removed? If it is to be kept, then how can we get the OSM tiles rendered without it showing this old stream? I can see that some specialist tiles might want to show old data like this but I wouldn't have thought it appropriate that normal OSM tiles would need to show this old data would it?

Any help would be appreciated.

Paul



Please Note:

Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Independent Television News Limited unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify [hidden email]

Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read messages sent to and from our systems.

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Re: NPE data

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by Barnett, Phillip
I tend to see an NPE tag as something that needs attention. A lot of the
area, where I now live, North Shropshire, was armchair mapped using NPE
maps. That includes a lot of roads, I am getting through resurveying
them but even today I found one that according to my GPS was 50m from
where it should be.

In the case of a road I see it as an indication that there is a road
there (somewhere), or it may be a dirt track, NPE did not show the
difference and I have re-tagged quite a few of these.

Phil (trigpoint)


On Sun, 2013-10-06 at 16:23 +0000, Barnett, Phillip wrote:

> Paul,
>
> NPE maps were the first backgrounds for the editors other than some
> quite low res Yahoo imagery of the UK, so people used them for mapping
> streams/rivers/woods etc back in the day. As you have noticed, they
> don’t necessarily relate to modern streams – they may have dried up or
> been culverted/piped long since. They are all over 50 years old, (for
> copyright reasons) after all.
>
> Yes, if the facts on the ground have changed, then the stream needs to
> be moved, or removed. No process needed, just use an editor.
>
>  
>
> Note – only remove NPE tagged items if you know they have changed –
> don’t just do a mass-remove! (That’s in the unlikely event you were
> planning to write a bot to remove them all!)
>
> Phil
>
>  
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> PHILLIP BARNETT
> SERVER MANAGER
>
> 200 GRAY'S INN ROAD
> LONDON
> WC1X 8XZ
> UNITED KINGDOM
> T +44 207 430 4474
> E [hidden email]
> WWW.ITN.CO.UK
> P Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this
> email?
>
>  
>
> From: Paul Churchley [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 06 October 2013 16:57
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Talk-GB] NPE data
>
>
>  
>
> I have come across some data tagged as source=npe. I know what the NPE
> maps are but my question is a bit of a newbies one... why is NPE data
> mapped on OSM if it is so old?
>
>
> I have just mapped an area for a customer of mine and there is a
> stream mapped running right through the centre of his property. It is
> tagged source=npe. The stream is no longer there and hasn't been for
> the 20 or so years he has owned the property.
>
>
> The old stream is showing up on OSM rendered tiles. His properly is a
> caravan site and so it would be good if his property did not have a
> stream that no longer exists running through it as it suggests that it
> might flood... which it doesn't.
>
>
> What is the situation regarding npe data? Can it be removed? Obviously
> I would just remove it!!! But is there is a process to get it removed?
> If it is to be kept, then how can we get the OSM tiles rendered
> without it showing this old stream? I can see that some specialist
> tiles might want to show old data like this but I wouldn't have
> thought it appropriate that normal OSM tiles would need to show this
> old data would it?
>
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> Please Note:
>
> Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of Independent Television News Limited
> unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are
> confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or
> entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in
> error, please notify [hidden email]
>
> Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the
> protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read
> messages sent to and from our systems.
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb




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Re: NPE data

Barnett, Phillip
+1

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philip Barnes [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 06 October 2013 18:42
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] NPE data
>
> I tend to see an NPE tag as something that needs attention. A lot of
> the area, where I now live, North Shropshire, was armchair mapped using
> NPE maps. That includes a lot of roads, I am getting through
> resurveying them but even today I found one that according to my GPS
> was 50m from where it should be.
>
> In the case of a road I see it as an indication that there is a road
> there (somewhere), or it may be a dirt track, NPE did not show the
> difference and I have re-tagged quite a few of these.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
> On Sun, 2013-10-06 at 16:23 +0000, Barnett, Phillip wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > NPE maps were the first backgrounds for the editors other than some
> > quite low res Yahoo imagery of the UK, so people used them for
> mapping
> > streams/rivers/woods etc back in the day. As you have noticed, they
> > don’t necessarily relate to modern streams – they may have dried up
> or
> > been culverted/piped long since. They are all over 50 years old, (for
> > copyright reasons) after all.
> >
> > Yes, if the facts on the ground have changed, then the stream needs
> to
> > be moved, or removed. No process needed, just use an editor.
> >
> >
> >
> > Note – only remove NPE tagged items if you know they have changed –
> > don’t just do a mass-remove! (That’s in the unlikely event you were
> > planning to write a bot to remove them all!)
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PHILLIP BARNETT
> > SERVER MANAGER
> >
> > 200 GRAY'S INN ROAD
> > LONDON
> > WC1X 8XZ
> > UNITED KINGDOM
> > T +44 207 430 4474
> > E [hidden email]
> > WWW.ITN.CO.UK
> > P Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this
> > email?
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Paul Churchley [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: 06 October 2013 16:57
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Talk-GB] NPE data
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have come across some data tagged as source=npe. I know what the
> NPE
> > maps are but my question is a bit of a newbies one... why is NPE data
> > mapped on OSM if it is so old?
> >
> >
> > I have just mapped an area for a customer of mine and there is a
> > stream mapped running right through the centre of his property. It is
> > tagged source=npe. The stream is no longer there and hasn't been for
> > the 20 or so years he has owned the property.
> >
> >
> > The old stream is showing up on OSM rendered tiles. His properly is a
> > caravan site and so it would be good if his property did not have a
> > stream that no longer exists running through it as it suggests that
> it
> > might flood... which it doesn't.
> >
> >
> > What is the situation regarding npe data? Can it be removed?
> Obviously
> > I would just remove it!!! But is there is a process to get it
> removed?
> > If it is to be kept, then how can we get the OSM tiles rendered
> > without it showing this old stream? I can see that some specialist
> > tiles might want to show old data like this but I wouldn't have
> > thought it appropriate that normal OSM tiles would need to show this
> > old data would it?
> >
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please Note:
> >
> > Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not
> > necessarily represent those of Independent Television News Limited
> > unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are
> > confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or
> > entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email
> in
> > error, please notify [hidden email]
> >
> > Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the
> > protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read
> > messages sent to and from our systems.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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Re: NPE data

Tim Waters (chippy)
I think this shows one of the benefits of adding source tags to our edits  - because in the future a better source may come along.

At the time a lot of natural features in the UK were traced from NPE maps and they made many parts of the UK in OSM much better than nothing. 

It's really encouraging, and we should further encourage folks to re-map and edit areas.  When I encounter something tagged with NPE as the source, I feel more confident moving and editing it whether aligning a stream to Bing imagery or to my GPS trace.... we'd also need to remind people to change the source tag as well!

Cheers and happy mapping!

Tim


On 6 October 2013 18:47, Barnett, Phillip <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philip Barnes [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 06 October 2013 18:42
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] NPE data
>
> I tend to see an NPE tag as something that needs attention. A lot of
> the area, where I now live, North Shropshire, was armchair mapped using
> NPE maps. That includes a lot of roads, I am getting through
> resurveying them but even today I found one that according to my GPS
> was 50m from where it should be.
>
> In the case of a road I see it as an indication that there is a road
> there (somewhere), or it may be a dirt track, NPE did not show the
> difference and I have re-tagged quite a few of these.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
> On Sun, 2013-10-06 at 16:23 +0000, Barnett, Phillip wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > NPE maps were the first backgrounds for the editors other than some
> > quite low res Yahoo imagery of the UK, so people used them for
> mapping
> > streams/rivers/woods etc back in the day. As you have noticed, they
> > don’t necessarily relate to modern streams – they may have dried up
> or
> > been culverted/piped long since. They are all over 50 years old, (for
> > copyright reasons) after all.
> >
> > Yes, if the facts on the ground have changed, then the stream needs
> to
> > be moved, or removed. No process needed, just use an editor.
> >
> >
> >
> > Note – only remove NPE tagged items if you know they have changed –
> > don’t just do a mass-remove! (That’s in the unlikely event you were
> > planning to write a bot to remove them all!)
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PHILLIP BARNETT
> > SERVER MANAGER
> >
> > 200 GRAY'S INN ROAD
> > LONDON
> > WC1X 8XZ
> > UNITED KINGDOM
> > T <a href="tel:%2B44%20207%20430%204474" value="+442074304474" target="_blank">+44 207 430 4474
> > E [hidden email]
> > WWW.ITN.CO.UK
> > P Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this
> > email?
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Paul Churchley [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: 06 October 2013 16:57
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Talk-GB] NPE data
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have come across some data tagged as source=npe. I know what the
> NPE
> > maps are but my question is a bit of a newbies one... why is NPE data
> > mapped on OSM if it is so old?
> >
> >
> > I have just mapped an area for a customer of mine and there is a
> > stream mapped running right through the centre of his property. It is
> > tagged source=npe. The stream is no longer there and hasn't been for
> > the 20 or so years he has owned the property.
> >
> >
> > The old stream is showing up on OSM rendered tiles. His properly is a
> > caravan site and so it would be good if his property did not have a
> > stream that no longer exists running through it as it suggests that
> it
> > might flood... which it doesn't.
> >
> >
> > What is the situation regarding npe data? Can it be removed?
> Obviously
> > I would just remove it!!! But is there is a process to get it
> removed?
> > If it is to be kept, then how can we get the OSM tiles rendered
> > without it showing this old stream? I can see that some specialist
> > tiles might want to show old data like this but I wouldn't have
> > thought it appropriate that normal OSM tiles would need to show this
> > old data would it?
> >
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please Note:
> >
> > Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not
> > necessarily represent those of Independent Television News Limited
> > unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are
> > confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or
> > entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email
> in
> > error, please notify [hidden email]
> >
> > Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the
> > protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read
> > messages sent to and from our systems.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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