Name Suggestion Index

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Name Suggestion Index

Jez Nicholson
Continuing my poking around to see what causes what....

I was wondering how iD (and Vespucci) decides what to offer as brands when I create a new feature, or when it suggests something like "Ibis looks like a brand with incomplete tags". The answer is the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_Suggestion_Index (NSI) ...now detailed on a wiki page that I created.

The NSI is a github repository, so updates and editions can be suggested. This can be done via your own fork or on the OSMUK fork. I'm not sure what will work best for us yet.

The entries are geofenced. A brand tagged for 'gb' will only be displayed when editing a feature in the UK. https://nsi.guide/ is good for visualising what would be shown. Type 'gb' into the Country Code field.

I'm doing this to raise awareness because editor presets will strongly affect how items are tagged. We have access to change what happens.

The https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom page has a long history and AFAIK is still active. Anyone updating the NSI should refer to it. However, because the NSI actually powers things it is becoming the standard. One thing it includes that the NSI does not, is photographic evidence of the branding.

- Jez

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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 08:24, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I was wondering how iD (and Vespucci) decides what to offer as brands when I create a new feature, or when it suggests something like "Ibis looks like a brand with incomplete tags". The answer is the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_Suggestion_Index (NSI) ...now detailed on a wiki page that I created.
>
> The NSI is a github repository, so updates and editions can be suggested. This can be done via your own fork or on the OSMUK fork. I'm not sure what will work best for us yet.

I stumbled across the NSI myself a couple of months ago, while looking
to add brand tags to shops in my local area though iD. I've been
collecting a list of missing UK brands (or at least ones that iD
didn't suggest) and also some potential errors (e.g. where it's
assumed all shops of a certain brand have a specific shop tag, when in
reality there can be some variation in the types of outlets). What I
haven't looked into yet is the mechanics of how to suggest
adding/correcting entries and what other info is needed for each one.
(Submitting github issues and pull requests for each individual brand
seems like a lot of effort on the face of it -- but maybe that's what
you need to do.)

In case anyone is interested in adding these, or providing details of
how to do it, here's the list of missing brands that I've collected so
far (some may have been added since I started collecting):

  Animal (Clothes)
  Barnado's (charity)
  Bill's (retaurant)
  Bon Marché (clothes)
  Byron (restaurant/burgers)
  Café Rouge (restaurant)
  Card Factory (cards)
  Fred Olsen Travel (travel_agent)
  Hughes (electrical goods)
  Johnsons (dry_cleaning)
  Jones the Bootmaker (shoes)
  Mr. Shoes (shoes)
  Muffin Break (Cafe)
  Scrivens (optician)
  Timpson (key-cutting / shoe_repair)
  The Perfume Shop (perfumery)
  Topman / Topshop (clothes)
  TUI (travel_agency)
  William H Brown (estate_agent)
  YMCA (charity shop)
  Yours (clothes)

And here are the one I think there are problems with:

  Greggs (allow amenity=cafe or shop=bakery or both)
  Clintons (should recognise shop=cards as well as shop=gift when
suggesting 'upgrades' in iD)

Best wishes,

Robert.

--
Robert Whittaker

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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Gareth L
Curious as to what is selected for branches of The Range. That was recently highlighted as being tricky to categorise.

Gareth

> On 6 Nov 2019, at 07:51, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 08:24, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I was wondering how iD (and Vespucci) decides what to offer as brands when I create a new feature, or when it suggests something like "Ibis looks like a brand with incomplete tags". The answer is the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_Suggestion_Index (NSI) ...now detailed on a wiki page that I created.
>>
>> The NSI is a github repository, so updates and editions can be suggested. This can be done via your own fork or on the OSMUK fork. I'm not sure what will work best for us yet.
>
> I stumbled across the NSI myself a couple of months ago, while looking
> to add brand tags to shops in my local area though iD. I've been
> collecting a list of missing UK brands (or at least ones that iD
> didn't suggest) and also some potential errors (e.g. where it's
> assumed all shops of a certain brand have a specific shop tag, when in
> reality there can be some variation in the types of outlets). What I
> haven't looked into yet is the mechanics of how to suggest
> adding/correcting entries and what other info is needed for each one.
> (Submitting github issues and pull requests for each individual brand
> seems like a lot of effort on the face of it -- but maybe that's what
> you need to do.)
>
> In case anyone is interested in adding these, or providing details of
> how to do it, here's the list of missing brands that I've collected so
> far (some may have been added since I started collecting):
>
>  Animal (Clothes)
>  Barnado's (charity)
>  Bill's (retaurant)
>  Bon Marché (clothes)
>  Byron (restaurant/burgers)
>  Café Rouge (restaurant)
>  Card Factory (cards)
>  Fred Olsen Travel (travel_agent)
>  Hughes (electrical goods)
>  Johnsons (dry_cleaning)
>  Jones the Bootmaker (shoes)
>  Mr. Shoes (shoes)
>  Muffin Break (Cafe)
>  Scrivens (optician)
>  Timpson (key-cutting / shoe_repair)
>  The Perfume Shop (perfumery)
>  Topman / Topshop (clothes)
>  TUI (travel_agency)
>  William H Brown (estate_agent)
>  YMCA (charity shop)
>  Yours (clothes)
>
> And here are the one I think there are problems with:
>
>  Greggs (allow amenity=cafe or shop=bakery or both)
>  Clintons (should recognise shop=cards as well as shop=gift when
> suggesting 'upgrades' in iD)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Rob Nickerson
In reply to this post by Jez Nicholson
Hi Robert,

I'm happy to help with these. For each store can you please provide:
  1. Main name (e.g. Greggs)
  2. Any alternate name that should be matched on when contributors type in the search box in iD (e.g. Gregg's)
  3. The main tag (e.g. shop=bakery)
  4. Any alternate tags you want to match on (e.g. amenity=cafe)
  5. Any tags that should always be present. Common examples are:
    1. brand=*
    2. brand:wikidata=*
    3. brand:wikipedia=*
    4. cuisine=* (in the case of restaurants)
It may be easier to create a spreadsheet with all the info in. We can then get this in to the name suggestion index. Happy to help here but for those interested see https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md . It is possible to edit the relevant brand files [1] via the github.com web interface. Open the relevant brand (.json) file and then click the pencil icon in the top right corner. This forks the repo and lets you edit the file. Make your changes and then raise a Pull Request. 


Rob

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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Jez Nicholson
In reply to this post by Gareth L
AFAIK 'The Range' has not got an entry. You can enter it in the Tag Text field with/without 'gb' in the Country Code on https://nsi.guide

To me, the big question is: how do we adequately consult the community so that we feel that the GB entries are appropriate?

Depending on github/dev abilities individuals can either create their own fork/pull request. We also have an OSMUK fork that group work could be done on. Or evidence could be added to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom and Talk-GB can be consulted...a number of things are possible. But ultimately, I would like "the community" to feel that the changes are ours.

There are a number of minor decisions involved, e.g. is Hotel Chocolat a shop=confectionery or the newer shop=chocolate. Overpass Turbo says 50 the former, 13 the latter. Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom says shop=confectionery so that is what the NSI says.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 7:38 PM Gareth L <[hidden email]> wrote:
Curious as to what is selected for branches of The Range. That was recently highlighted as being tricky to categorise.

Gareth

> On 6 Nov 2019, at 07:51, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 08:24, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I was wondering how iD (and Vespucci) decides what to offer as brands when I create a new feature, or when it suggests something like "Ibis looks like a brand with incomplete tags". The answer is the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_Suggestion_Index (NSI) ...now detailed on a wiki page that I created.
>>
>> The NSI is a github repository, so updates and editions can be suggested. This can be done via your own fork or on the OSMUK fork. I'm not sure what will work best for us yet.
>
> I stumbled across the NSI myself a couple of months ago, while looking
> to add brand tags to shops in my local area though iD. I've been
> collecting a list of missing UK brands (or at least ones that iD
> didn't suggest) and also some potential errors (e.g. where it's
> assumed all shops of a certain brand have a specific shop tag, when in
> reality there can be some variation in the types of outlets). What I
> haven't looked into yet is the mechanics of how to suggest
> adding/correcting entries and what other info is needed for each one.
> (Submitting github issues and pull requests for each individual brand
> seems like a lot of effort on the face of it -- but maybe that's what
> you need to do.)
>
> In case anyone is interested in adding these, or providing details of
> how to do it, here's the list of missing brands that I've collected so
> far (some may have been added since I started collecting):
>
>  Animal (Clothes)
>  Barnado's (charity)
>  Bill's (retaurant)
>  Bon Marché (clothes)
>  Byron (restaurant/burgers)
>  Café Rouge (restaurant)
>  Card Factory (cards)
>  Fred Olsen Travel (travel_agent)
>  Hughes (electrical goods)
>  Johnsons (dry_cleaning)
>  Jones the Bootmaker (shoes)
>  Mr. Shoes (shoes)
>  Muffin Break (Cafe)
>  Scrivens (optician)
>  Timpson (key-cutting / shoe_repair)
>  The Perfume Shop (perfumery)
>  Topman / Topshop (clothes)
>  TUI (travel_agency)
>  William H Brown (estate_agent)
>  YMCA (charity shop)
>  Yours (clothes)
>
> And here are the one I think there are problems with:
>
>  Greggs (allow amenity=cafe or shop=bakery or both)
>  Clintons (should recognise shop=cards as well as shop=gift when
> suggesting 'upgrades' in iD)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Paul Berry
Continuing with the Hotel Chocolat example, it could well be the case that most are tagged with shop=confectionery because that was the nearest-fit tag that was suggested when each was initially mapped. If the more precise tag of shop=chocolate is now available we should make adjustments so that iD suggests this as an "upgrade" the next time someone is making an edit in or around one of them. Some of their shops offer a cafe/restaurant service as well, which should be suggested as a second tier of tags.

Yours chocolatey,
Paul

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 10:14, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
AFAIK 'The Range' has not got an entry. You can enter it in the Tag Text field with/without 'gb' in the Country Code on https://nsi.guide

To me, the big question is: how do we adequately consult the community so that we feel that the GB entries are appropriate?

Depending on github/dev abilities individuals can either create their own fork/pull request. We also have an OSMUK fork that group work could be done on. Or evidence could be added to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom and Talk-GB can be consulted...a number of things are possible. But ultimately, I would like "the community" to feel that the changes are ours.

There are a number of minor decisions involved, e.g. is Hotel Chocolat a shop=confectionery or the newer shop=chocolate. Overpass Turbo says 50 the former, 13 the latter. Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom says shop=confectionery so that is what the NSI says.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 7:38 PM Gareth L <[hidden email]> wrote:
Curious as to what is selected for branches of The Range. That was recently highlighted as being tricky to categorise.

Gareth

> On 6 Nov 2019, at 07:51, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 08:24, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I was wondering how iD (and Vespucci) decides what to offer as brands when I create a new feature, or when it suggests something like "Ibis looks like a brand with incomplete tags". The answer is the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_Suggestion_Index (NSI) ...now detailed on a wiki page that I created.
>>
>> The NSI is a github repository, so updates and editions can be suggested. This can be done via your own fork or on the OSMUK fork. I'm not sure what will work best for us yet.
>
> I stumbled across the NSI myself a couple of months ago, while looking
> to add brand tags to shops in my local area though iD. I've been
> collecting a list of missing UK brands (or at least ones that iD
> didn't suggest) and also some potential errors (e.g. where it's
> assumed all shops of a certain brand have a specific shop tag, when in
> reality there can be some variation in the types of outlets). What I
> haven't looked into yet is the mechanics of how to suggest
> adding/correcting entries and what other info is needed for each one.
> (Submitting github issues and pull requests for each individual brand
> seems like a lot of effort on the face of it -- but maybe that's what
> you need to do.)
>
> In case anyone is interested in adding these, or providing details of
> how to do it, here's the list of missing brands that I've collected so
> far (some may have been added since I started collecting):
>
>  Animal (Clothes)
>  Barnado's (charity)
>  Bill's (retaurant)
>  Bon Marché (clothes)
>  Byron (restaurant/burgers)
>  Café Rouge (restaurant)
>  Card Factory (cards)
>  Fred Olsen Travel (travel_agent)
>  Hughes (electrical goods)
>  Johnsons (dry_cleaning)
>  Jones the Bootmaker (shoes)
>  Mr. Shoes (shoes)
>  Muffin Break (Cafe)
>  Scrivens (optician)
>  Timpson (key-cutting / shoe_repair)
>  The Perfume Shop (perfumery)
>  Topman / Topshop (clothes)
>  TUI (travel_agency)
>  William H Brown (estate_agent)
>  YMCA (charity shop)
>  Yours (clothes)
>
> And here are the one I think there are problems with:
>
>  Greggs (allow amenity=cafe or shop=bakery or both)
>  Clintons (should recognise shop=cards as well as shop=gift when
> suggesting 'upgrades' in iD)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
_______________________________________________
Talk-GB mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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Fwd: Re: Name Suggestion Index

Philip Barnes

My local Hotel Chocolate is also a cafe.
 
Phil (trigpoint)
 

> On Wednesday, 6 November 2019, Paul Berry wrote:
> > Continuing with the Hotel Chocolat example, it could well be the case that
> > most are tagged with shop=confectionery because that was the nearest-fit
> > tag that was suggested when each was initially mapped. If the more precise
> > tag of shop=chocolate is now available we should make adjustments so that
> > iD suggests this as an "upgrade" the next time someone is making an edit in
> > or around one of them. Some of their shops offer a cafe/restaurant service
> > as well, which should be suggested as a second tier of tags.
> >
> > Yours chocolatey,
> > *Paul*
> >
> > On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 10:14, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > AFAIK 'The Range' has not got an entry. You can enter it in the Tag Text
> > > field with/without 'gb' in the Country Code on https://nsi.guide
> > >
> > > To me, the big question is: how do we adequately consult the community so
> > > that we feel that the GB entries are appropriate?
> > >
> > > Depending on github/dev abilities individuals can either create their own
> > > fork/pull request. We also have an OSMUK fork that group work could be done
> > > on. Or evidence could be added to
> > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom and
> > > Talk-GB can be consulted...a number of things are possible. But ultimately,
> > > I would like "the community" to feel that the changes are ours.
> > >
> > > There are a number of minor decisions involved, e.g. is Hotel Chocolat
> > > a shop=confectionery or the newer shop=chocolate. Overpass Turbo says 50
> > > the former, 13 the latter. Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom
> > > says shop=confectionery so that is what the NSI says.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 7:38 PM Gareth L <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Curious as to what is selected for branches of The Range. That was
> > >> recently highlighted as being tricky to categorise.
> > >>
> > >> Gareth
> > >>
> > >> > On 6 Nov 2019, at 07:51, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
> > >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 08:24, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >> I was wondering how iD (and Vespucci) decides what to offer as brands
> > >> when I create a new feature, or when it suggests something like "Ibis looks
> > >> like a brand with incomplete tags". The answer is the
> > >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_Suggestion_Index (NSI) ...now
> > >> detailed on a wiki page that I created.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> The NSI is a github repository, so updates and editions can be
> > >> suggested. This can be done via your own fork or on the OSMUK fork. I'm not
> > >> sure what will work best for us yet.
> > >> >
> > >> > I stumbled across the NSI myself a couple of months ago, while looking
> > >> > to add brand tags to shops in my local area though iD. I've been
> > >> > collecting a list of missing UK brands (or at least ones that iD
> > >> > didn't suggest) and also some potential errors (e.g. where it's
> > >> > assumed all shops of a certain brand have a specific shop tag, when in
> > >> > reality there can be some variation in the types of outlets). What I
> > >> > haven't looked into yet is the mechanics of how to suggest
> > >> > adding/correcting entries and what other info is needed for each one.
> > >> > (Submitting github issues and pull requests for each individual brand
> > >> > seems like a lot of effort on the face of it -- but maybe that's what
> > >> > you need to do.)
> > >> >
> > >> > In case anyone is interested in adding these, or providing details of
> > >> > how to do it, here's the list of missing brands that I've collected so
> > >> > far (some may have been added since I started collecting):
> > >> >
> > >> >  Animal (Clothes)
> > >> >  Barnado's (charity)
> > >> >  Bill's (retaurant)
> > >> >  Bon Marché (clothes)
> > >> >  Byron (restaurant/burgers)
> > >> >  Café Rouge (restaurant)
> > >> >  Card Factory (cards)
> > >> >  Fred Olsen Travel (travel_agent)
> > >> >  Hughes (electrical goods)
> > >> >  Johnsons (dry_cleaning)
> > >> >  Jones the Bootmaker (shoes)
> > >> >  Mr. Shoes (shoes)
> > >> >  Muffin Break (Cafe)
> > >> >  Scrivens (optician)
> > >> >  Timpson (key-cutting / shoe_repair)
> > >> >  The Perfume Shop (perfumery)
> > >> >  Topman / Topshop (clothes)
> > >> >  TUI (travel_agency)
> > >> >  William H Brown (estate_agent)
> > >> >  YMCA (charity shop)
> > >> >  Yours (clothes)
> > >> >
> > >> > And here are the one I think there are problems with:
> > >> >
> > >> >  Greggs (allow amenity=cafe or shop=bakery or both)
> > >> >  Clintons (should recognise shop=cards as well as shop=gift when
> > >> > suggesting 'upgrades' in iD)
> > >> >
> > >> > Best wishes,
> > >> >
> > >> > Robert.
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Robert Whittaker
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > >> > [hidden email]
> > >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Talk-GB mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Talk-GB mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > >
> >
>
> --
> Sent from my Sailfish devic

--
Sent from my Sailfish device
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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Jez Nicholson
In reply to this post by Paul Berry
Exactamundo! So, how do we decide? It would be overkill to come back to the list for every single case, but equally, this is a change that affects current and future features.....or am I the only one who is bothered by this?

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019, 13:27 Paul Berry, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Continuing with the Hotel Chocolat example, it could well be the case that most are tagged with shop=confectionery because that was the nearest-fit tag that was suggested when each was initially mapped. If the more precise tag of shop=chocolate is now available we should make adjustments so that iD suggests this as an "upgrade" the next time someone is making an edit in or around one of them. Some of their shops offer a cafe/restaurant service as well, which should be suggested as a second tier of tags.

Yours chocolatey,
Paul

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 10:14, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
AFAIK 'The Range' has not got an entry. You can enter it in the Tag Text field with/without 'gb' in the Country Code on https://nsi.guide

To me, the big question is: how do we adequately consult the community so that we feel that the GB entries are appropriate?

Depending on github/dev abilities individuals can either create their own fork/pull request. We also have an OSMUK fork that group work could be done on. Or evidence could be added to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom and Talk-GB can be consulted...a number of things are possible. But ultimately, I would like "the community" to feel that the changes are ours.

There are a number of minor decisions involved, e.g. is Hotel Chocolat a shop=confectionery or the newer shop=chocolate. Overpass Turbo says 50 the former, 13 the latter. Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom says shop=confectionery so that is what the NSI says.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 7:38 PM Gareth L <[hidden email]> wrote:
Curious as to what is selected for branches of The Range. That was recently highlighted as being tricky to categorise.

Gareth

> On 6 Nov 2019, at 07:51, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 08:24, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I was wondering how iD (and Vespucci) decides what to offer as brands when I create a new feature, or when it suggests something like "Ibis looks like a brand with incomplete tags". The answer is the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_Suggestion_Index (NSI) ...now detailed on a wiki page that I created.
>>
>> The NSI is a github repository, so updates and editions can be suggested. This can be done via your own fork or on the OSMUK fork. I'm not sure what will work best for us yet.
>
> I stumbled across the NSI myself a couple of months ago, while looking
> to add brand tags to shops in my local area though iD. I've been
> collecting a list of missing UK brands (or at least ones that iD
> didn't suggest) and also some potential errors (e.g. where it's
> assumed all shops of a certain brand have a specific shop tag, when in
> reality there can be some variation in the types of outlets). What I
> haven't looked into yet is the mechanics of how to suggest
> adding/correcting entries and what other info is needed for each one.
> (Submitting github issues and pull requests for each individual brand
> seems like a lot of effort on the face of it -- but maybe that's what
> you need to do.)
>
> In case anyone is interested in adding these, or providing details of
> how to do it, here's the list of missing brands that I've collected so
> far (some may have been added since I started collecting):
>
>  Animal (Clothes)
>  Barnado's (charity)
>  Bill's (retaurant)
>  Bon Marché (clothes)
>  Byron (restaurant/burgers)
>  Café Rouge (restaurant)
>  Card Factory (cards)
>  Fred Olsen Travel (travel_agent)
>  Hughes (electrical goods)
>  Johnsons (dry_cleaning)
>  Jones the Bootmaker (shoes)
>  Mr. Shoes (shoes)
>  Muffin Break (Cafe)
>  Scrivens (optician)
>  Timpson (key-cutting / shoe_repair)
>  The Perfume Shop (perfumery)
>  Topman / Topshop (clothes)
>  TUI (travel_agency)
>  William H Brown (estate_agent)
>  YMCA (charity shop)
>  Yours (clothes)
>
> And here are the one I think there are problems with:
>
>  Greggs (allow amenity=cafe or shop=bakery or both)
>  Clintons (should recognise shop=cards as well as shop=gift when
> suggesting 'upgrades' in iD)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Name Suggestion Index

sk53.osm
In reply to this post by Paul Berry
Personally I'd prefer retaining confectionery & perhaps using some kind of sub-tag for the chocolate bit: although chocolate only/dominated shops are much commoner than some other kinds of sweet shop. 

There's a trade-off between overly general & overly specific tags which is sometimes difficult to judge. OSM-Nottingham lumps cake & sweet shops together (many have a café too). A quick look through shows that 'indian' (South Asian) sweet shops is a pretty common sub-category, and there are a still a few pick-and-mix places too. This suggests sub-tagging would be useful in other situations (chocolate/pick_and_mix/south_asian/etc), see taginfo for current values.  There's always been some overlap between cake shops & bakeries (Birds the Confectioners being a classic East Midlands example), but shop=patisserie, shop=cake & shop=sweet have never had much traction. There seems no good reason to separate out chocolate shops from other types which have equally valid reasons to be distinguished, and doing so may encourage a fissiparous tagging tendency. Note that there will tend to be regional & cultural differences in styles of confectionery & the shops (I've always been a bit puzzled how to tag the little places with "Regalos Dulces" above the door in Spain), and in an ideal world we keep tags which work best across cultures.

Jerry

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 13:28, Paul Berry <[hidden email]> wrote:
Continuing with the Hotel Chocolat example, it could well be the case that most are tagged with shop=confectionery because that was the nearest-fit tag that was suggested when each was initially mapped. If the more precise tag of shop=chocolate is now available we should make adjustments so that iD suggests this as an "upgrade" the next time someone is making an edit in or around one of them. Some of their shops offer a cafe/restaurant service as well, which should be suggested as a second tier of tags.

Yours chocolatey,
Paul

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 10:14, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
AFAIK 'The Range' has not got an entry. You can enter it in the Tag Text field with/without 'gb' in the Country Code on https://nsi.guide

To me, the big question is: how do we adequately consult the community so that we feel that the GB entries are appropriate?

Depending on github/dev abilities individuals can either create their own fork/pull request. We also have an OSMUK fork that group work could be done on. Or evidence could be added to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom and Talk-GB can be consulted...a number of things are possible. But ultimately, I would like "the community" to feel that the changes are ours.

There are a number of minor decisions involved, e.g. is Hotel Chocolat a shop=confectionery or the newer shop=chocolate. Overpass Turbo says 50 the former, 13 the latter. Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom says shop=confectionery so that is what the NSI says.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 7:38 PM Gareth L <[hidden email]> wrote:
Curious as to what is selected for branches of The Range. That was recently highlighted as being tricky to categorise.

Gareth

> On 6 Nov 2019, at 07:51, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 08:24, Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I was wondering how iD (and Vespucci) decides what to offer as brands when I create a new feature, or when it suggests something like "Ibis looks like a brand with incomplete tags". The answer is the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_Suggestion_Index (NSI) ...now detailed on a wiki page that I created.
>>
>> The NSI is a github repository, so updates and editions can be suggested. This can be done via your own fork or on the OSMUK fork. I'm not sure what will work best for us yet.
>
> I stumbled across the NSI myself a couple of months ago, while looking
> to add brand tags to shops in my local area though iD. I've been
> collecting a list of missing UK brands (or at least ones that iD
> didn't suggest) and also some potential errors (e.g. where it's
> assumed all shops of a certain brand have a specific shop tag, when in
> reality there can be some variation in the types of outlets). What I
> haven't looked into yet is the mechanics of how to suggest
> adding/correcting entries and what other info is needed for each one.
> (Submitting github issues and pull requests for each individual brand
> seems like a lot of effort on the face of it -- but maybe that's what
> you need to do.)
>
> In case anyone is interested in adding these, or providing details of
> how to do it, here's the list of missing brands that I've collected so
> far (some may have been added since I started collecting):
>
>  Animal (Clothes)
>  Barnado's (charity)
>  Bill's (retaurant)
>  Bon Marché (clothes)
>  Byron (restaurant/burgers)
>  Café Rouge (restaurant)
>  Card Factory (cards)
>  Fred Olsen Travel (travel_agent)
>  Hughes (electrical goods)
>  Johnsons (dry_cleaning)
>  Jones the Bootmaker (shoes)
>  Mr. Shoes (shoes)
>  Muffin Break (Cafe)
>  Scrivens (optician)
>  Timpson (key-cutting / shoe_repair)
>  The Perfume Shop (perfumery)
>  Topman / Topshop (clothes)
>  TUI (travel_agency)
>  William H Brown (estate_agent)
>  YMCA (charity shop)
>  Yours (clothes)
>
> And here are the one I think there are problems with:
>
>  Greggs (allow amenity=cafe or shop=bakery or both)
>  Clintons (should recognise shop=cards as well as shop=gift when
> suggesting 'upgrades' in iD)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Great Britain mailing list


On 06/11/2019 14:22, SK53 wrote:
> Personally I'd prefer retaining confectionery & perhaps using some kind of
> sub-tag for the chocolate bit: although chocolate only/dominated shops are
> much commoner than some other kinds of sweet shop.

Yes.
shop=confectionery
confectionery= chocolate/fudge etc

DaveF

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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Silent Spike
I'm a (UK based) maintainer of the NSI repository and can push changes directly to it. I haven't been as active lately, but previously was working my way through UK brands.

"The Range" is one I've looked at previously but never figured out the most appropriate tagging which is why it still isn't in the index (for cases like that I'd like to consult the community for some consensus). I'll actually start a new thread to discuss this brand today.

"Hotel Chocolat" I believe is shop=confectionery in the index purely because it was the established tagging. If there is some community consensus it should be changed then that can be done (and this is why the index is so useful, because all existing locations matched to the brand via `brand:wikidata` could be automatically re-tagged with the preferred value).

If there are brands missing or issues with the current brand tagging I'd suggest either:
- Open an issue on the repository (or a pull request if you're comfortable with git and json) and all contributors will then see it
- If you don't have a github account and don't want one, just bring things up on this mailing list (feel free to email me directly too) and I'll see them and can either open an issue or push changes



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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Great Britain mailing list
Hotel Chocolat could be tagged "shop=chocolate", I suppose, but chocolate is a sub-set of confectionery, so perhaps it should retain "shop=confectionery", so that users looking for a sugar high don't have to search for both shop=confectionery and shop=chocolate (and shop=boiled sweets and shop=fruit_gums and shop=seaside_rock and....)?

Would that make it "shop=confectionery / confectionery=chocolate"?  (I am a bit new to the "rules" of tagging) 

Regards,
Peter


On Friday, 8 November 2019, 10:41:28 GMT, Silent Spike <[hidden email]> wrote:


I'm a (UK based) maintainer of the NSI repository and can push changes directly to it. I haven't been as active lately, but previously was working my way through UK brands.

"The Range" is one I've looked at previously but never figured out the most appropriate tagging which is why it still isn't in the index (for cases like that I'd like to consult the community for some consensus). I'll actually start a new thread to discuss this brand today.

"Hotel Chocolat" I believe is shop=confectionery in the index purely because it was the established tagging. If there is some community consensus it should be changed then that can be done (and this is why the index is so useful, because all existing locations matched to the brand via `brand:wikidata` could be automatically re-tagged with the preferred value).

If there are brands missing or issues with the current brand tagging I'd suggest either:
- Open an issue on the repository (or a pull request if you're comfortable with git and json) and all contributors will then see it
- If you don't have a github account and don't want one, just bring things up on this mailing list (feel free to email me directly too) and I'll see them and can either open an issue or push changes


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Re: Name Suggestion Index

sk53.osm
I wish there was a general rule which could be easily formulated: certainly it would be useful to make some useful rules-of-thumb more explicit. Below is a crude attempt at some considerations.

Broadly speaking the shop=confectionery, confectionery=chocolate is probably what works best. The issue is not specifically chocolate but, as DaveF pointed out earlier in the thread, all the other specialist sweet/cake shops selling local specialties such as fudge or toffee (or perhaps even Bakewell Puddings). There are probably lots of these special cases which is usually a good sign to stick with the more general tag. The other issue is that a tag has to work across the globe & the presence of significant numbers of South Asian sweet outlets in Britain also suggests sticking with the more general tag. 

Also confectionery is more widely used & has a much longer usage. So both sets of tags need to be looked at anyway if one is looking for chocolate shops. 

Lastly using a subtag (confectionery) always means one is adding information and not changing the meaning of an existing tag. shop=chocolate implies that shop=confectionery is a shop which sells sweet things except chocolate.

The archetypal shop tag where a more general value is better than a specific one is shop=beauty. Some will be pure nail bars, but many offer a bewildering array of treatments. The general tag allows one not to have to worry about all this detail unless one is specifically interested. 

For really posh chocolate shops (not Hotel Chocolat or Thorntons) one could add craft=chocolatier (but be careful, many years ago I remember being disappointed to discover that the Belgiian chocolate firm Godiva was owned by Campbells Soup).

Jerry

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 11:01, Peter Neale via Talk-GB <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hotel Chocolat could be tagged "shop=chocolate", I suppose, but chocolate is a sub-set of confectionery, so perhaps it should retain "shop=confectionery", so that users looking for a sugar high don't have to search for both shop=confectionery and shop=chocolate (and shop=boiled sweets and shop=fruit_gums and shop=seaside_rock and....)?

Would that make it "shop=confectionery / confectionery=chocolate"?  (I am a bit new to the "rules" of tagging) 

Regards,
Peter


On Friday, 8 November 2019, 10:41:28 GMT, Silent Spike <[hidden email]> wrote:


I'm a (UK based) maintainer of the NSI repository and can push changes directly to it. I haven't been as active lately, but previously was working my way through UK brands.

"The Range" is one I've looked at previously but never figured out the most appropriate tagging which is why it still isn't in the index (for cases like that I'd like to consult the community for some consensus). I'll actually start a new thread to discuss this brand today.

"Hotel Chocolat" I believe is shop=confectionery in the index purely because it was the established tagging. If there is some community consensus it should be changed then that can be done (and this is why the index is so useful, because all existing locations matched to the brand via `brand:wikidata` could be automatically re-tagged with the preferred value).

If there are brands missing or issues with the current brand tagging I'd suggest either:
- Open an issue on the repository (or a pull request if you're comfortable with git and json) and all contributors will then see it
- If you don't have a github account and don't want one, just bring things up on this mailing list (feel free to email me directly too) and I'll see them and can either open an issue or push changes


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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2

Could make them all fast food outlets? Bakewell tarts, Melton Mowbray pies, Cornish Pasties, and my favourite Cartmel sticky toffee puddings……

Chocolate might just be a cuisine?

 

Or is that just stirring the pot J

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: SK53 [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 08 November 2019 11:54
To: Peter Neale
Cc: Talk GB
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Name Suggestion Index

 

I wish there was a general rule which could be easily formulated: certainly it would be useful to make some useful rules-of-thumb more explicit. Below is a crude attempt at some considerations.

 

Broadly speaking the shop=confectionery, confectionery=chocolate is probably what works best. The issue is not specifically chocolate but, as DaveF pointed out earlier in the thread, all the other specialist sweet/cake shops selling local specialties such as fudge or toffee (or perhaps even Bakewell Puddings). There are probably lots of these special cases which is usually a good sign to stick with the more general tag. The other issue is that a tag has to work across the globe & the presence of significant numbers of South Asian sweet outlets in Britain also suggests sticking with the more general tag. 

 

Also confectionery is more widely used & has a much longer usage. So both sets of tags need to be looked at anyway if one is looking for chocolate shops. 

 

Lastly using a subtag (confectionery) always means one is adding information and not changing the meaning of an existing tag. shop=chocolate implies that shop=confectionery is a shop which sells sweet things except chocolate.

 

The archetypal shop tag where a more general value is better than a specific one is shop=beauty. Some will be pure nail bars, but many offer a bewildering array of treatments. The general tag allows one not to have to worry about all this detail unless one is specifically interested. 

 

For really posh chocolate shops (not Hotel Chocolat or Thorntons) one could add craft=chocolatier (but be careful, many years ago I remember being disappointed to discover that the Belgiian chocolate firm Godiva was owned by Campbells Soup).

 

Jerry

 

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 11:01, Peter Neale via Talk-GB <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hotel Chocolat could be tagged "shop=chocolate", I suppose, but chocolate is a sub-set of confectionery, so perhaps it should retain "shop=confectionery", so that users looking for a sugar high don't have to search for both shop=confectionery and shop=chocolate (and shop=boiled sweets and shop=fruit_gums and shop=seaside_rock and....)?

 

Would that make it "shop=confectionery / confectionery=chocolate"?  (I am a bit new to the "rules" of tagging) 

 

Regards,

Peter

 

 

On Friday, 8 November 2019, 10:41:28 GMT, Silent Spike <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

I'm a (UK based) maintainer of the NSI repository and can push changes directly to it. I haven't been as active lately, but previously was working my way through UK brands.

 

"The Range" is one I've looked at previously but never figured out the most appropriate tagging which is why it still isn't in the index (for cases like that I'd like to consult the community for some consensus). I'll actually start a new thread to discuss this brand today.

 

"Hotel Chocolat" I believe is shop=confectionery in the index purely because it was the established tagging. If there is some community consensus it should be changed then that can be done (and this is why the index is so useful, because all existing locations matched to the brand via `brand:wikidata` could be automatically re-tagged with the preferred value).

 

If there are brands missing or issues with the current brand tagging I'd suggest either:

- Open an issue on the repository (or a pull request if you're comfortable with git and json) and all contributors will then see it

- If you don't have a github account and don't want one, just bring things up on this mailing list (feel free to email me directly too) and I'll see them and can either open an issue or push changes

 

 

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Re: Name Suggestion Index

Great Britain mailing list
On 08/11/2019 14:39, Andy Robinson wrote:
> Or is that just stirring the pot J

 From watching GBBO, even I know you stir a bowl over hot water.



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