Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

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Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

Warin
Hi,


At present the names of bus stops goes something like

name=Strathfield Station, Albert Rd (Stand F).


The web transport trip planers direct you to Stand F, yet this is not
very visiblein OSM renderings as that information is last.


Would it not be best to have the name put the more detailed information
first and the generalproximity information last, much like an address?

Such as

name=Stand F, Albert Rd, Strathfield Station


Thoughts?


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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

cleary

As a regular user of public transport, I agree.


On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Warin wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> At present the names of bus stops goes something like
>
> name=Strathfield Station, Albert Rd (Stand F).
>
>
> The web transport trip planers direct you to Stand F, yet this is not
> very visiblein OSM renderings as that information is last.
>
>
> Would it not be best to have the name put the more detailed information
> first and the generalproximity information last, much like an address?
>
> Such as
>
> name=Stand F, Albert Rd, Strathfield Station
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>

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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

Warin
Are there any dissenters? 

      
I'll give it a week.
Any feed back from other places In Australia? 
On 21/01/19 20:00, cleary wrote:
As a regular user of public transport, I agree.


On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Warin wrote:
Hi,


At present the names of bus stops goes something like

name=Strathfield Station, Albert Rd (Stand F).


The web transport trip planers direct you to Stand F, yet this is not 
very visiblein OSM renderings as that information is last.


Would it not be best to have the name put the more detailed information 
first and the generalproximity information last, much like an address?

Such as

name=Stand F, Albert Rd, Strathfield Station


Thoughts?




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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

ewmjc

In Sweden, I have seen the "F" going into the ref tag. Just a thought, I don't recall how it affects rendering in common schemes. Con: Clash with a more rigorous ref num giving by the transport authority, "40459" or such. Another (complementary) practice is to put just "F" as the name - which has the secondary benefit of being more likely to render out in a crowded space. The other detail perhaps being better suited to the corresponding bus_station node/area/relation.

Else, +1 from me, the proposal seems useful to me as a smart refinement of local practice.

Mike

On 2019-01-22 10:26, Warin wrote:
Are there any dissenters? 
I'll give it a week.
Any feed back from other places In Australia? 
On 21/01/19 20:00, cleary wrote:
As a regular user of public transport, I agree.


On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Warin wrote:
Hi,


At present the names of bus stops goes something like

name=Strathfield Station, Albert Rd (Stand F).


The web transport trip planers direct you to Stand F, yet this is not 
very visiblein OSM renderings as that information is last.


Would it not be best to have the name put the more detailed information 
first and the generalproximity information last, much like an address?

Such as

name=Stand F, Albert Rd, Strathfield Station


Thoughts?




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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

Sam Wilson
I agree, putting the stand name first makes sense.

I've been putting ref=1234 tags on stands (with their ID from the sign),
but for some reason haven't ever thought to add the name as well; I
shall do so from now on.

On 1/21/19 4:26 PM, Michael Collinson wrote:

> In Sweden, I have seen the "F" going into the ref tag. Just a thought, I
> don't recall how it affects rendering in common schemes. Con: Clash with
> a more rigorous ref num giving by the transport authority, "40459" or
> such. Another (complementary) practice is to put just "F" as the name -
> which has the secondary benefit of being more likely to render out in a
> crowded space. The other detail perhaps being better suited to the
> corresponding bus_station node/area/relation.
>
> Else, +1 from me, the proposal seems useful to me as a smart refinement
> of local practice.
>
> Mike
>
> On 2019-01-22 10:26, Warin wrote:
>> Are there anydissenters?
>> I'll give it a week.
>> Any feed back from other places In Australia?
>> On 21/01/19 20:00, cleary wrote:
>>> As a regular user of public transport, I agree.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Warin wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At present the names of bus stops goes something like
>>>>
>>>> name=Strathfield Station, Albert Rd (Stand F).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The web transport trip planers direct you to Stand F, yet this is not
>>>> very visiblein OSM renderings as that information is last.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Would it not be best to have the name put the more detailed information
>>>> first and the generalproximity information last, much like an address?
>>>>
>>>> Such as
>>>>
>>>> name=Stand F, Albert Rd, Strathfield Station
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

David Wales
In reply to this post by ewmjc
Why not:

name=Stand F, Strathfield Station
addr:street=Albert Road

On 22/1/19 11:26 am, Michael Collinson wrote:

> In Sweden, I have seen the "F" going into the ref tag. Just a thought, I
> don't recall how it affects rendering in common schemes. Con: Clash with
> a more rigorous ref num giving by the transport authority, "40459" or
> such. Another (complementary) practice is to put just "F" as the name -
> which has the secondary benefit of being more likely to render out in a
> crowded space. The other detail perhaps being better suited to the
> corresponding bus_station node/area/relation.
>
> Else, +1 from me, the proposal seems useful to me as a smart refinement
> of local practice.
>
> Mike
>
> On 2019-01-22 10:26, Warin wrote:
>> Are there any dissenters?
>> I'll give it a week.
>> Any feed back from other places In Australia?
>> On 21/01/19 20:00, cleary wrote:
>>> As a regular user of public transport, I agree.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Warin wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At present the names of bus stops goes something like
>>>>
>>>> name=Strathfield Station, Albert Rd (Stand F).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The web transport trip planers direct you to Stand F, yet this is not
>>>> very visiblein OSM renderings as that information is last.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Would it not be best to have the name put the more detailed information
>>>> first and the generalproximity information last, much like an address?
>>>>
>>>> Such as
>>>>
>>>> name=Stand F, Albert Rd, Strathfield Station
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

Warin
In reply to this post by Sam Wilson
Yes, I have seen the ref tag used for some number that occurs on the bus
stop.
I have used (misused?) the ref to tag the routes that use that bus stop,
then some one has put the stop 'number' in as local_ref.
Possibly the stop number is a 'operator_ref' ... whatever, no practical
use to the normal person.
The routes that stop at a bus stop .. might better go into a comments
tag - help others who might be mapping routes using the already entered
bus stops?

  In crowed space you have to zoom in, as always. Possibly a search
function may work?

On 22/01/19 11:40, Sam Wilson wrote:

> I agree, putting the stand name first makes sense.
>
> I've been putting ref=1234 tags on stands (with their ID from the
> sign), but for some reason haven't ever thought to add the name as
> well; I shall do so from now on.
>
> On 1/21/19 4:26 PM, Michael Collinson wrote:
>> In Sweden, I have seen the "F" going into the ref tag. Just a
>> thought, I don't recall how it affects rendering in common schemes.
>> Con: Clash with a more rigorous ref num giving by the transport
>> authority, "40459" or such. Another (complementary) practice is to
>> put just "F" as the name - which has the secondary benefit of being
>> more likely to render out in a crowded space. The other detail
>> perhaps being better suited to the corresponding bus_station
>> node/area/relation.
>>
>> Else, +1 from me, the proposal seems useful to me as a smart
>> refinement of local practice.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On 2019-01-22 10:26, Warin wrote:
>>> Are there anydissenters?
>>> I'll give it a week.
>>> Any feed back from other places In Australia?
>>> On 21/01/19 20:00, cleary wrote:
>>>> As a regular user of public transport, I agree.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Warin wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At present the names of bus stops goes something like
>>>>>
>>>>> name=Strathfield Station, Albert Rd (Stand F).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The web transport trip planers direct you to Stand F, yet this is not
>>>>> very visiblein OSM renderings as that information is last.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Would it not be best to have the name put the more detailed
>>>>> information
>>>>> first and the generalproximity information last, much like an
>>>>> address?
>>>>>
>>>>> Such as
>>>>>
>>>>> name=Stand F, Albert Rd, Strathfield Station
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>


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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

Sam Wilson
On 1/21/19 4:58 PM, Warin wrote:
> I have used (misused?) the ref to tag the routes that use that bus stop,
> then some one has put the stop 'number' in as local_ref.
> Possibly the stop number is a 'operator_ref' ... whatever, no practical
> use to the normal person.

I actually find the ref super useful, because with the Transperth app in
WA you can search by stop ID and it's quicker and a lot more accurate
than searching by street name etc. They're displayed in OSMAnd, and
that's usually where I get them from.

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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

Warin
On 22/01/19 12:03, Sam Wilson wrote:

> On 1/21/19 4:58 PM, Warin wrote:
>> I have used (misused?) the ref to tag the routes that use that bus
>> stop, then some one has put the stop 'number' in as local_ref.
>> Possibly the stop number is a 'operator_ref' ... whatever, no
>> practical use to the normal person.
>
> I actually find the ref super useful, because with the Transperth app
> in WA you can search by stop ID and it's quicker and a lot more
> accurate than searching by street name etc. They're displayed in
> OSMAnd, and that's usually where I get them from.

How do you know the number to start your search?

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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

Warin
On 22/01/19 12:20, Warin wrote:

> On 22/01/19 12:03, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> On 1/21/19 4:58 PM, Warin wrote:
>>> I have used (misused?) the ref to tag the routes that use that bus
>>> stop, then some one has put the stop 'number' in as local_ref.
>>> Possibly the stop number is a 'operator_ref' ... whatever, no
>>> practical use to the normal person.
>>
>> I actually find the ref super useful, because with the Transperth app
>> in WA you can search by stop ID and it's quicker and a lot more
>> accurate than searching by street name etc. They're displayed in
>> OSMAnd, and that's usually where I get them from.
>
> How do you know the number to start your search?

Arr .. sorry did not absorb that you got them from OSMand .. will have
to try that locally here.

Yep it works here too... so I have not recorded them here, will add it
to the list of 'things to do'.


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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

cleary
In reply to this post by Warin
In Sydney, many stops display the stop number but I'm not sure if we have another source for this data - in NSW, the convention is that the first four numbers  are the postcode of the suburb. So all stops in Strathfield would have a 6 or 7 digit number with the first four digits being the postcode for the suburb.  For example stands A to D at Strathfield have their numbers included in OSM with the tag "local_ref="





On Tue, 22 Jan 2019, at 12:21 PM, Warin wrote:

> On 22/01/19 12:03, Sam Wilson wrote:
> > On 1/21/19 4:58 PM, Warin wrote:
> >> I have used (misused?) the ref to tag the routes that use that bus
> >> stop, then some one has put the stop 'number' in as local_ref.
> >> Possibly the stop number is a 'operator_ref' ... whatever, no
> >> practical use to the normal person.
> >
> > I actually find the ref super useful, because with the Transperth app
> > in WA you can search by stop ID and it's quicker and a lot more
> > accurate than searching by street name etc. They're displayed in
> > OSMAnd, and that's usually where I get them from.
>
> How do you know the number to start your search?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>

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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney

Warin
The ref number is included in the GTFS data which has been applied for in April (last year).

https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/timetables-complete-gtfs (GTFS 'stop_id' I think is OSMs 'ref')

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue

As there is an election coming up .. would some political pressure promote the processing of this application?


------------------------
At the moment my thinking on bus stops tagging is

name= tag .. move the 'Stand' information to the beginning of the text etc

ref= tag ... use this for the reference number - this appears to be used by some renders and is helpful in using transport planners.

comment= tag use this for any route information that maybe present. Useful for mappers to check/use for route relations


On 22/01/19 13:01, cleary wrote:

> In Sydney, many stops display the stop number but I'm not sure if we have another source for this data - in NSW, the convention is that the first four numbers  are the postcode of the suburb. So all stops in Strathfield would have a 6 or 7 digit number with the first four digits being the postcode for the suburb.  For example stands A to D at Strathfield have their numbers included in OSM with the tag "local_ref="
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2019, at 12:21 PM, Warin wrote:
>> On 22/01/19 12:03, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> On 1/21/19 4:58 PM, Warin wrote:
>>>> I have used (misused?) the ref to tag the routes that use that bus
>>>> stop, then some one has put the stop 'number' in as local_ref.
>>>> Possibly the stop number is a 'operator_ref' ... whatever, no
>>>> practical use to the normal person.
>>> I actually find the ref super useful, because with the Transperth app
>>> in WA you can search by stop ID and it's quicker and a lot more
>>> accurate than searching by street name etc. They're displayed in
>>> OSMAnd, and that's usually where I get them from.
>> How do you know the number to start your search?
>>


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Re: Naming Bus Stops for interchanges in Sydney -completed

Warin
Ok,
I have done the ones in Sydney + Newcastle-
brought the Stand information to the front of the name, I have left the
rest of the information alone.


I'll make a note in the OSM Aust guidelines about it.

I'll have a look at other capitols later.

On 24/01/19 14:40, Warin wrote:

> The ref number is included in the GTFS data which has been applied for
> in April (last year).
>
> https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/dataset/timetables-complete-gtfs 
> (GTFS 'stop_id' I think is OSMs 'ref')
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue
>
> As there is an election coming up .. would some political pressure
> promote the processing of this application?
>
>
> ------------------------
> At the moment my thinking on bus stops tagging is
>
> name= tag .. move the 'Stand' information to the beginning of the text
> etc
>
> ref= tag ... use this for the reference number - this appears to be
> used by some renders and is helpful in using transport planners.
>
> comment= tag use this for any route information that maybe present.
> Useful for mappers to check/use for route relations
>
>
> On 22/01/19 13:01, cleary wrote:
>> In Sydney, many stops display the stop number but I'm not sure if we
>> have another source for this data - in NSW, the convention is that
>> the first four numbers  are the postcode of the suburb. So all stops
>> in Strathfield would have a 6 or 7 digit number with the first four
>> digits being the postcode for the suburb.  For example stands A to D
>> at Strathfield have their numbers included in OSM with the tag
>> "local_ref="
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2019, at 12:21 PM, Warin wrote:
>>> On 22/01/19 12:03, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 1/21/19 4:58 PM, Warin wrote:
>>>>> I have used (misused?) the ref to tag the routes that use that bus
>>>>> stop, then some one has put the stop 'number' in as local_ref.
>>>>> Possibly the stop number is a 'operator_ref' ... whatever, no
>>>>> practical use to the normal person.
>>>> I actually find the ref super useful, because with the Transperth app
>>>> in WA you can search by stop ID and it's quicker and a lot more
>>>> accurate than searching by street name etc. They're displayed in
>>>> OSMAnd, and that's usually where I get them from.
>>> How do you know the number to start your search?
>>>
>
>


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