Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

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Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Joseph Eisenberg
Here in Indonesia it is very common for neighbors to build sign over
the main entrance to their neighborhood, with the name of the
neighborhood on top and some other info on the two columns supporting
the sign.

In this example there are two different gateway signs, on the small
street to the left and the main street to the right:
https://goo.gl/maps/qx6sDyJ1czn

In Portland and San Diego, there are several examples of archways or
gateway signs over the main commercial street in a retail district.
For example, Chinatown in Portland has a nice gateway sign near the
center of the neighborhood, since 1986:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown_Gateway#/media/File:Chinatown_in_Portland,_Oregon.jpg

And Hillcrest, San Diego has this historic sign right in the center of
the retail district:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillcrest,_San_Diego#/media/File:Hillcrest,_San_Diego.JPG

These can't be "city limit" / "town limit" signs, because they are
just for a neighborhood and they are near the center rather than at
the border.

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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Kevin Kenny-3
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:48 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here in Indonesia it is very common for neighbors to build sign over
the main entrance to their neighborhood, with the name of the
neighborhood on top and some other info on the two columns supporting
the sign.

For all the examples you give, they're not very useful as signs in terms of giving directions, and they have a more ceremonial role. I wonder if what we're dealing with isn't a public sculpture.

That's how I treated this one 


which marks the southern terminus of the Northville-Placid Trail (a 222-km hiking route through the Adirondack Mountains of New York).

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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Paul Johnson-3
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:35 PM Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:48 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here in Indonesia it is very common for neighbors to build sign over
the main entrance to their neighborhood, with the name of the
neighborhood on top and some other info on the two columns supporting
the sign.

For all the examples you give, they're not very useful as signs in terms of giving directions, and they have a more ceremonial role. I wonder if what we're dealing with isn't a public sculpture.

 I can only speak of Tulsa and Portland examples as those are the two metros where I've seen these most prolifically, though if you look on the back of many stop signs or the left side of the street after an intersection at the edge of a district (neighborhood), there will be a round sign (probably using a blank W10-1) with the district's logo.  These signs line the perimeter of the district, making it possible to form the administrative boundary of the district.

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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Allan Mustard

In Turkmenistan I have tagged such signs (though they are official, and for villages/towns) as tourism=information, information=board or information=name depending on how much info it contains.  If there is a better tag, I am all ears.

On 11/16/2018 7:44 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:35 PM Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:48 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here in Indonesia it is very common for neighbors to build sign over
the main entrance to their neighborhood, with the name of the
neighborhood on top and some other info on the two columns supporting
the sign.

For all the examples you give, they're not very useful as signs in terms of giving directions, and they have a more ceremonial role. I wonder if what we're dealing with isn't a public sculpture.

 I can only speak of Tulsa and Portland examples as those are the two metros where I've seen these most prolifically, though if you look on the back of many stop signs or the left side of the street after an intersection at the edge of a district (neighborhood), there will be a round sign (probably using a blank W10-1) with the district's logo.  These signs line the perimeter of the district, making it possible to form the administrative boundary of the district.

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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by Paul Johnson-3
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 9:45 PM Paul Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:35 PM Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:48 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here in Indonesia it is very common for neighbors to build sign over
the main entrance to their neighborhood, with the name of the
neighborhood on top and some other info on the two columns supporting
the sign.

For all the examples you give, they're not very useful as signs in terms of giving directions, and they have a more ceremonial role. I wonder if what we're dealing with isn't a public sculpture.

 I can only speak of Tulsa and Portland examples as those are the two metros where I've seen these most prolifically, though if you look on the back of many stop signs or the left side of the street after an intersection at the edge of a district (neighborhood), there will be a round sign (probably using a blank W10-1) with the district's logo.  These signs line the perimeter of the district, making it possible to form the administrative boundary of the district.

Interesting, but not exactly the ceremonial gateway to a neighbourhood.  Where I grew up, there are a lot of ceremonial gateposts, but less elaborate, more like what you see in https://goo.gl/maps/uCT5EAEjGCn .  Come to think of it, the subdivision where I live now still has a couple of its signs https://goo.gl/maps/F2YG14g1jfr.   There was one village near where I grew up that had actual, functioning gates on the roads going in and out - for an unknown reason, it wasn't a gated community. They're long gone, but you can see where they were in spots like https://goo.gl/maps/PsuvSPU9Pj72 .

I've not mapped any of these gateways; the most I've done is to map the boundary of the subdivision and tag it landuse=residential name=Orchard Park

Georgia puts its county road numbers inconspicuously on vertical green signs - shaped a lot like many states' mileposts, and maybe they are painted on the same stock as their freeway mileposts - on the back of STOP signs.

But I still think that the gateways that Joseph describes are most likely public sculptures rather than useful boundary markers - particularly if they are unofficial and erected by the residents.

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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 at 11:48, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here in Indonesia it is very common for neighbors to build sign over
the main entrance to their neighborhood, with the name of the
neighborhood on top and some other info on the two columns supporting
the sign.

I asked this question a while back about similar types of signs, as to whether they may come under artwork

These two aren't suburbs in their own right, only real-estate developments / perhaps neighbourhoods?



And Hillcrest, San Diego has this historic sign right in the center of the retail district:
 
This one would have originally been pretty well on the outskirts, but is now in the centre of what is now a main suburb, & was built to show all the services that were available in Burleigh Heads at that time. It's been in place for something over 50 years (& some of those services aren't actually available any more!)

 
These can't be "city limit" / "town limit" signs, because they are
just for a neighborhood and they are near the center rather than at
the border.

Most responses said "city limits" or similar.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 at 12:34, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:

For all the examples you give, they're not very useful as signs in terms of giving directions, and they have a more ceremonial role. I wonder if what we're dealing with isn't a public sculpture.

One response to my question was:

"I view them as informative - same as street naming signs - I would not map the signs them selves into OSM but I would map the feature with the name in OSM. 

I do not see than as art - their main function is information, making them 'pretty' as art is nice but that is not their main function."

I'm still in two minds, so haven't done anything with them at all.

No, they're not really direction signs as your address isn't Dunlin Drive, Burleigh Cove, it's actually Burleigh Waters. Same thing for The Moorings - your address is Clear Island Waters, so they're not an admin boundary.

Artwork / sculpture may be correct?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Joseph Eisenberg
Please look at the examples in Indonesia. They are not sculptures or artwork. And they are erected by the very local government at the neighborhood level. The large sculptural signs in San Diego are rather artistic, but they are put up by the government or with government approval at least, because they span the street.

Another consideration is that these are overhead “barriers” for tall vehicles. A full-size truck / lorry can fit under the American ones, but not under the gateway signs in Indonesia, so these are significant for routing.
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:14 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 at 11:48, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here in Indonesia it is very common for neighbors to build sign over
the main entrance to their neighborhood, with the name of the
neighborhood on top and some other info on the two columns supporting
the sign.

I asked this question a while back about similar types of signs, as to whether they may come under artwork

These two aren't suburbs in their own right, only real-estate developments / perhaps neighbourhoods?



And Hillcrest, San Diego has this historic sign right in the center of the retail district:
 
This one would have originally been pretty well on the outskirts, but is now in the centre of what is now a main suburb, & was built to show all the services that were available in Burleigh Heads at that time. It's been in place for something over 50 years (& some of those services aren't actually available any more!)

 
These can't be "city limit" / "town limit" signs, because they are
just for a neighborhood and they are near the center rather than at
the border.

Most responses said "city limits" or similar.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 at 12:34, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:

For all the examples you give, they're not very useful as signs in terms of giving directions, and they have a more ceremonial role. I wonder if what we're dealing with isn't a public sculpture.

One response to my question was:

"I view them as informative - same as street naming signs - I would not map the signs them selves into OSM but I would map the feature with the name in OSM. 

I do not see than as art - their main function is information, making them 'pretty' as art is nice but that is not their main function."

I'm still in two minds, so haven't done anything with them at all.

No, they're not really direction signs as your address isn't Dunlin Drive, Burleigh Cove, it's actually Burleigh Waters. Same thing for The Moorings - your address is Clear Island Waters, so they're not an admin boundary.

Artwork / sculpture may be correct?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Kevin Kenny-3
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:44 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please look at the examples in Indonesia. They are not sculptures or artwork. And they are erected by the very local government at the neighborhood level. The large sculptural signs in San Diego are rather artistic, but they are put up by the government or with government approval at least, because they span the street.

The local government is often the patron of artwork. There are towns and villages near me that have a fair amount of government-erected public sculpture that is there simply to express civic pride or entertain visitors. It's for you to decide whether the objects that you wish to map are there to decorate or to direct. I don't think the fact that a government sponsored them necessarily determines that.

In the case I gave of the Northville-Placid Trail arch, it was erected intentionally for tourism - so that hikers starting or finishing the trek could have a spot for a photo-op or some other ceremony to mark their aspiration or accomplishment. It's a much better site for such an emotional moment than the former terminus, which was a rather nondescript road intersection in the middle of the village. I had previously walked the entire length of the trail as it then stood, but I felt a much greater sense of completion when I came back a couple of months later, hiked the newly-opened southernmost section and strode through the arch. "Now I can truly say I've done the whole thing!'

In the cases I gave of gates at the entrance to American subdivisions, their purpose is chiefly to advertise the developer, and they tend to fall into disrepair once all the houses in the subdivision are sold. Once in a while, a village or a residents' association might spruce them up a bit.

In the case of the Portland Chinatown gate, I really more or less saw the purpose as shouting, "Welcome, tourists! Here's Chinatown! We're proud of the place! Please come in and spend lots of money!" (Which is a reasonably legitimate reason for a government to erect such an artifact - it's called promoting the local economy.,)

Another consideration is that these are overhead “barriers” for tall vehicles. A full-size truck / lorry can fit under the American ones, but not under the gateway signs in Indonesia, so these are significant for routing.

Then by all means put maxheight=* on the ways going under them! I believe that lorry routers are supposed to honour that tag.

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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Am Fr., 16. Nov. 2018 um 02:48 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
Here in Indonesia it is very common for neighbors to build sign over
the main entrance to their neighborhood, with the name of the
neighborhood on top and some other info on the two columns supporting
the sign.
...
These can't be "city limit" / "town limit" signs, because they are
just for a neighborhood and they are near the center rather than at
the border.



they don't even look like "traffic_sign"s, I'd suggest a different tag for them. Maybe "information"?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

AgusQui
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
In Argentina we discussed this a few years ago and decided to use artwork
together with artwork_type = city_entrance
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=19718
<https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=19718>  



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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Joseph Eisenberg
Thank you, AgusQui. That sounds like a good option for an artistic entrance sign. Eg “Welcome to Fabulous Las Vegas.”

Can you give a link to photos of some of these?

But I don’t think artwork will work as a tag for simple overhead signs which don’t really qualify as artwork.

Also, city_entrance does not work well for signs in villages and neighborhoods, or signs that mark the center of a place rather than the entrance.

So it may still b necessary to make a new tag for these other situations
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 12:14 AM AgusQui <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Argentina we discussed this a few years ago and decided to use artwork
together with artwork_type = city_entrance
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=19718
<https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=19718



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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

AgusQui
We consider it as generic for any type of entrance arch, be it in city,
neighborhood, etc.
Examples:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo&pKey=9abzbC1EpTRUE8R4PDYs5A&lat=-27.454227912298393&lng=-56.04909613175403&z=17
<https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo&pKey=9abzbC1EpTRUE8R4PDYs5A&lat=-27.454227912298393&lng=-56.04909613175403&z=17>  
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo&lat=-27.517409&lng=-55.161794&z=19.372836616796267&pKey=x9etmxQN1Kn89C2jjv9haQ&x=0.2902073459801868&y=0.5106450259144627&zoom=0
<https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo&lat=-27.517409&lng=-55.161794&z=19.372836616796267&pKey=x9etmxQN1Kn89C2jjv9haQ&x=0.2902073459801868&y=0.5106450259144627&zoom=0>  
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Villa_Gesell_arco_entrada.jpg
<https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Villa_Gesell_arco_entrada.jpg>  
city_entrance


Joseph Eisenberg wrote

> Thank you, AgusQui. That sounds like a good option for an artistic
> entrance
> sign. Eg “Welcome to Fabulous Las Vegas.”
>
> Can you give a link to photos of some of these?
>
> But I don’t think artwork will work as a tag for simple overhead signs
> which don’t really qualify as artwork.
>
> Also, city_entrance does not work well for signs in villages and
> neighborhoods, or signs that mark the center of a place rather than the
> entrance.
>
> So it may still b necessary to make a new tag for these other situations
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 12:14 AM AgusQui &lt;

> aguztinqui@

> &gt; wrote:
>
>> In Argentina we discussed this a few years ago and decided to use artwork
>> together with artwork_type = city_entrance
>> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=19718
>> &lt;https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=19718&gt;
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 29. Nov 2018, at 04:27, AgusQui <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We consider it as generic for any type of entrance arch


IMHO this is tagging for the renderer. You set the artwork bar incredibly low with this. Why not call them “entrance_arch” or maybe “welcome_sign”? Or even both of them, according to the situation?


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Joseph Eisenberg
What key would you recommend, Martin?

Man_made=entrance_arch?
barrier=...?
Highway=...?
Entrance=welcome_sign?
On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 5:19 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 29. Nov 2018, at 04:27, AgusQui <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We consider it as generic for any type of entrance arch


IMHO this is tagging for the renderer. You set the artwork bar incredibly low with this. Why not call them “entrance_arch” or maybe “welcome_sign”? Or even both of them, according to the situation?


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Warin
On 30/11/18 20:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
What key would you recommend, Martin?

Man_made=entrance_arch?

Not all are entrances, some mark the centre.
No all are aches? An arch is a curved structure - some are rectangular .. portals? That is not right either.

barrier=...?
no
Highway=...?
?
Entrance=welcome_sign?

Not a simple sign

Umm
Man_made .. yes ...

information ... umm


On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 5:19 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 29. Nov 2018, at 04:27, AgusQui <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We consider it as generic for any type of entrance arch


IMHO this is tagging for the renderer. You set the artwork bar incredibly low with this. Why not call them “entrance_arch” or maybe “welcome_sign”? Or even both of them, according to the situation?


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Joseph Eisenberg
Yeah, that was how my thought process went too. Maybe there is no perfect tag for these.
On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 8:26 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 30/11/18 20:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
What key would you recommend, Martin?

Man_made=entrance_arch?

Not all are entrances, some mark the centre.
No all are aches? An arch is a curved structure - some are rectangular .. portals? That is not right either.

barrier=...?
no
Highway=...?
?
Entrance=welcome_sign?

Not a simple sign

Umm
Man_made .. yes ...

information ... umm


On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 5:19 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 29. Nov 2018, at 04:27, AgusQui <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We consider it as generic for any type of entrance arch


IMHO this is tagging for the renderer. You set the artwork bar incredibly low with this. Why not call them “entrance_arch” or maybe “welcome_sign”? Or even both of them, according to the situation?


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Tod Fitch
I’ve mapped by placing a way across the road tagged with:

man_made=gantry
name=“whatever”
place=neighbourhood

I suppose one could add some sort of tagging indicating the vertical clearance that might be of use for routing.

On Nov 30, 2018, at 3:48 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, that was how my thought process went too. Maybe there is no perfect tag for these.
On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 8:26 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 30/11/18 20:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
What key would you recommend, Martin?

Man_made=entrance_arch?

Not all are entrances, some mark the centre.
No all are aches? An arch is a curved structure - some are rectangular .. portals? That is not right either.

barrier=...?
no
Highway=...?
?
Entrance=welcome_sign?

Not a simple sign

Umm
Man_made .. yes ...

information ... umm


On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 5:19 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 29. Nov 2018, at 04:27, AgusQui <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We consider it as generic for any type of entrance arch


IMHO this is tagging for the renderer. You set the artwork bar incredibly low with this. Why not call them “entrance_arch” or maybe “welcome_sign”? Or even both of them, according to the situation?


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Sergio Manzi

Seems very good to me.

In the proposal I don't like very much the way to indicate clearence, maxheight:physical=* (what? opposed to...  maxheight:virtual=*, maybe?), but that's another story...

I think you found the right key, bravo!

Sergio


On 2018-11-30 17:53, Tod Fitch wrote:
I’ve mapped by placing a way across the road tagged with:

man_made=gantry
name=“whatever”
place=neighbourhood

I suppose one could add some sort of tagging indicating the vertical clearance that might be of use for routing.


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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Sergio Manzi

No, wait, I disagree with the "place=neighbourhood" thing!

See: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Places and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place

Cheers!

On 2018-11-30 18:10, Sergio Manzi wrote:

Seems very good to me.

In the proposal I don't like very much the way to indicate clearence, maxheight:physical=* (what? opposed to...  maxheight:virtual=*, maybe?), but that's another story...

I think you found the right key, bravo!

Sergio


On 2018-11-30 17:53, Tod Fitch wrote:
I’ve mapped by placing a way across the road tagged with:

man_made=gantry
name=“whatever”
place=neighbourhood

I suppose one could add some sort of tagging indicating the vertical clearance that might be of use for routing.


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Re: Neighborhood Gateway Signs?

Sergio Manzi

What do you think about this?

    man_made=gantry
    name=“name_of_the_neighbourood”
    usage=welcome_sign

usage is used mainly for railways but it is a so generic and useful term that I don't think it should be "hijacked" by railways.

welcome_sign is already used for board_type in information=board, but welcome signs are far from being restricted to boards


On 2018-11-30 18:18, Sergio Manzi wrote:

No, wait, I disagree with the "place=neighbourhood" thing!

See: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Places and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place

Cheers!

On 2018-11-30 18:10, Sergio Manzi wrote:

Seems very good to me.

In the proposal I don't like very much the way to indicate clearence, maxheight:physical=* (what? opposed to...  maxheight:virtual=*, maybe?), but that's another story...

I think you found the right key, bravo!

Sergio


On 2018-11-30 17:53, Tod Fitch wrote:
I’ve mapped by placing a way across the road tagged with:

man_made=gantry
name=“whatever”
place=neighbourhood

I suppose one could add some sort of tagging indicating the vertical clearance that might be of use for routing.


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