New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

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New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Dave F.
Hi

Two points regarding the recent OSM carto updates:

1. Tertiary roads being rendered white. This, by my count, brings the
total rendered that colour to four: Tertiary, Residential, Service &
Unclassified. Surely clearly distinguishing between very different
classifications using colour make the map easier to comprehend? I'm
struggling to understand how this can be considered an improvement. Is
their an online explanation giving the reasons?

2. Road widths
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png

As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At
interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a
blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when
the one-way tag is present?

Cheers
Dave F.






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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Philip Barnes
On Tue Nov 3 12:17:21 2015 GMT, Dave F. wrote
 

>
> 2. Road widths
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png
>
> As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At
> interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a
> blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when
> the one-way tag is present?
>
I am seeing issues with the wider roads obstructing hedgerows and clipping buildings at higher zooms as they are now wider than the physical space on the ground.

Comparing the old style to new, where rendering is not yet complete, they seem to be over 30% wider at zoom 19.

Would it be possible to tweak them back to the point where they are closer to the previous width, and fit within a not uncommon 4m width.

Other than this small issue, I do like the new style.

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Christoph Hormann
In reply to this post by Dave F.
On Tuesday 03 November 2015, Dave F. wrote:
>
> 1. Tertiary roads being rendered white. This, by my count, brings the
> total rendered that colour to four: Tertiary, Residential, Service &
> Unclassified. Surely clearly distinguishing between very different
> classifications using colour make the map easier to comprehend? I'm
> struggling to understand how this can be considered an improvement.
> Is their an online explanation giving the reasons?

Most of the discussion on the road styling changes can be found on:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/102
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1736
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary

This is a lot of material to review but it is highly recommended to work
through that before you make specific suggestions for changes because
otherwise you are very likely to frustrate those who participated in
those previous discussions by bringing ideas and arguments that have
been covered in depth previously.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Jóhannes Birgir Jensson
Þann 03.11.2015 12:46, Christoph Hormann reit:
> This is a lot of material to review but it is highly recommended to
> work
> through that before you make specific suggestions for changes because
> otherwise you are very likely to frustrate those who participated in
> those previous discussions by bringing ideas and arguments that have
> been covered in depth previously.

As an active participant in the discussion (mostly advocating for
tertiary to be colored) I have to say that "in depth" doesn't really
describe how the decision was taken regarding tertiary color. The answer
to that was basically "just because".

Some of these changes were purely arbitrary, not based on a deep
scientific study, data crunching or otherwise scientific methods.
Arbitrary changes really need to prove themselves, and so far this one
at least hasn't (expanding width and decoloring tertiary).

--Jói / Stalfur

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Christoph Hormann
On Tuesday 03 November 2015, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
>
> As an active participant in the discussion (mostly advocating for
> tertiary to be colored) I have to say that "in depth" doesn't really
> describe how the decision was taken regarding tertiary color. The
> answer to that was basically "just because".

That is not correct, Mateusz put quite some time into trying different
alternatives for tertiary roads and there was plenty of opportunity for
all interested parties to participate in discussion with suggestions
and arguments.  You might disagree with the outcome but in this
particular point you can hardly say it was not covered in depth.

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Jóhannes Birgir Jensson
Þann 03.11.2015 14:08, Christoph Hormann reit:

> On Tuesday 03 November 2015, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
>>
>> As an active participant in the discussion (mostly advocating for
>> tertiary to be colored) I have to say that "in depth" doesn't really
>> describe how the decision was taken regarding tertiary color. The
>> answer to that was basically "just because".
>
> That is not correct, Mateusz put quite some time into trying different
> alternatives for tertiary roads and there was plenty of opportunity for
> all interested parties to participate in discussion with suggestions
> and arguments.  You might disagree with the outcome but in this
> particular point you can hardly say it was not covered in depth.

Several alternatives were proposed. They were disregarded without an
exact reason other than "doesn't work for me".

--Jóhannes

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Christoph Hormann
On Tuesday 03 November 2015, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:

> >
> > That is not correct, Mateusz put quite some time into trying
> > different alternatives for tertiary roads and there was plenty of
> > opportunity for all interested parties to participate in discussion
> > with suggestions and arguments.  You might disagree with the
> > outcome but in this particular point you can hardly say it was not
> > covered in depth.
>
> Several alternatives were proposed. They were disregarded without an
> exact reason other than "doesn't work for me".
>

Also not correct, various alternatives were tested, samples were shown,
areas where problems occur were mentioned, advantages and disadvantages
of various options mentioned, you can hardly cover this more in depth
than this.

Note ultimately design decisions are always subjective.  If at the end
of a long process a decision is made without once more listing in depth
all arguments for and against it this does not mean the decision is
arbitrary.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

lsces
On 03/11/15 14:39, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> Note ultimately design decisions are always subjective.  If at the end
> of a long process a decision is made without once more listing in depth
> all arguments for and against it this does not mean the decision is
> arbitrary.

A 'long process' carried out in a small area of discussion is proving
problematic for the wider user base. This is one area that once exposed
*IS* proving to be the wrong subjective decision followed closely by the
changes to road width. The world is a large area with a large range of
data spread, so trials may well have missed numerous examples of where
something that looks good for a few limited examples fails in the wider
coverage.

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Pieren
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Also not correct, various alternatives were tested, samples were shown,
> areas where problems occur were mentioned, advantages and disadvantages
> of various options mentioned, you can hardly cover this more in depth
> than this.
>
> Note ultimately design decisions are always subjective.  If at the end
> of a long process a decision is made without once more listing in depth
> all arguments for and against it this does not mean the decision is
> arbitrary.

I didn't express myself since a long time on this list. I just
discovered the new style and wanted to undestand how it was possible
to kill the tertiary road type in OSM. Because it must be clear : if a
road class is not rendered, it will be ignored by most of the
contributors in the future. That's it.
And after reading the thread on github, I'm surprised to see how easy
the warnings have been ignored. Maybe because the style developers
underestimated its importance (only 4 millions ways) ?
This is not a message to minimize the huge efforts and positive
improvements about this change.

Pieren

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> Am 03.11.2015 um 16:47 schrieb Pieren <[hidden email]>:
>
> I didn't express myself since a long time on this list. I just
> discovered the new style and wanted to undestand how it was possible
> to kill the tertiary road type in OSM. Because it must be clear : if a
> road class is not rendered, it will be ignored by most of the
> contributors in the future. That's it.


tertiaries are still rendered, they just don't have a different colour than other roads (but they are thicker). In German we say: remain on the carpet ;-)


cheers
Martin
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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Daniel Koć
In reply to this post by Dave F.
W dniu 03.11.2015 13:17, Dave F. napisał(a):

> 2. Road widths
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png
>
> As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At
> interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into
> a blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced
> when the one-way tag is present?

This code change is probably to blame:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1861

Probably this should be reverted or tweaked to be more conservative
(it's better if the road is a bit too narrow than a bit too wide).

--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags
down" [A. Cohen]

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Dave F.
Thanks for that.

Hmm... Interesting; I notice nearby that motorway & links are now
rendered as I suggested:

http://bl.ocks.org/tyrasd/raw/6164696/#18.00/1.29498/103.87800

However it doesn't for trunk_link:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.39961/-2.33758

Maybe it should? (I haven't test the other *_links)

Cheers
Dave F.



On 03/11/2015 17:40, Daniel Koć wrote:

> W dniu 03.11.2015 13:17, Dave F. napisał(a):
>
>> 2. Road widths
>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg
>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png
>>
>> As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At
>> interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into
>> a blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced
>> when the one-way tag is present?
>
> This code change is probably to blame:
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1861
>
> Probably this should be reverted or tweaked to be more conservative
> (it's better if the road is a bit too narrow than a bit too wide).
>


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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

max-2
In reply to this post by Dave F.
On 2015년 11월 03일 21:17, Dave F. wrote:
>
> 2. Road widths
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png
>
> As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At
> interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a
> blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when
> the one-way tag is present?

Could the renderer take the number of lanes and/or with information of
the road into account? Then we would not have this issue.

I am not sure if this has been discussed or proposed before, If not I'll
post that suggestion in the github issue tracker.

m.

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

lsces
In reply to this post by Dave F.
On 04/11/15 01:06, Dave F. wrote:

>
> Hmm... Interesting; I notice nearby that motorway & links are now
> rendered as I suggested:
>
> http://bl.ocks.org/tyrasd/raw/6164696/#18.00/1.29498/103.87800
>
> However it doesn't for trunk_link:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.39961/-2.33758
>
> Maybe it should? (I haven't test the other *_links)

That is a part of the jigsaw of why the rendering around here is looking
'messy'. The motorways are at least rendering with a central
reservation, while the primary routes are loosing that boundary. On
smaller devices the problem is worse than on high resolution devices.

--
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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by max-2


Am 04.11.2015 um 06:06 schrieb Max:
> Could the renderer take the number of lanes and/or with information of
> the road into account? Then we would not have this issue.
>

The rendering database currently does not include the lanes value, or
put differently any such feature would have to weight for a re-import
plus "style" change (there is lots of stuff that is dependent on that,
but I'm not sure if a re-import is actually still being discussed).

Simon


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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Pieren
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> tertiaries are still rendered, they just don't have a different colour than other roads (but they are thicker). In German we say: remain on the carpet ;-)

Well, I would say in English "you play with words". It's not visible
as a specific class. And for the minority who will see it's thicker,
they will think it's based on a physical attribute (width or lanes),
not on its importance.

Pieren

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

lsces
On 04/11/15 12:08, Pieren wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > tertiaries are still rendered, they just don't have a different colour than other roads (but they are thicker). In German we say: remain on the carpet ;-)
> Well, I would say in English "you play with words". It's not visible
> as a specific class. And for the minority who will see it's thicker,
> they will think it's based on a physical attribute (width or lanes),
> not on its importance.

The simple answer is secondary, tertiary and unclassified roads in many
areas of the world have the same importance, so rendering them
drastically differently is a mistake!

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

pierzen
In reply to this post by Pieren
+1

this is not the role of the style to re-interpret the classification and get rid of important elements of the classification. I did mention this before the style was completed but badly it was decided to ignore objections on this. Let's not play on words to explain why.
 
 
Pierre


De : Pieren <[hidden email]>
À : [hidden email]
Envoyé le : Mercredi 4 novembre 2015 13h08
Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> tertiaries are still rendered, they just don't have a different colour than other roads (but they are thicker). In German we say: remain on the carpet ;-)

Well, I would say in English "you play with words". It's not visible
as a specific class. And for the minority who will see it's thicker,
they will think it's based on a physical attribute (width or lanes),
not on its importance.




Pieren

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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Daniel Koć
In reply to this post by Daniel Koć
W dniu 03.11.2015 18:40, Daniel Koć napisał(a):

> W dniu 03.11.2015 13:17, Dave F. napisał(a):
>
>> 2. Road widths
>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg
>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png
>>
>> As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At
>> interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into
>> a blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced
>> when the one-way tag is present?
>
> This code change is probably to blame:
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1861
>
> Probably this should be reverted or tweaked to be more conservative
> (it's better if the road is a bit too narrow than a bit too wide).

Fast fix (reverting 50% of the latest width increase) has just been
merged:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1972#event-464497448

If you want to test it yourself before it will be deployed on OSM
servers, you can try installing development environment:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/INSTALL.md
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/657#issuecomment-121279334

--
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Re: New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths

Daniel Koć
In reply to this post by lsces
W dniu 04.11.2015 18:36, Lester Caine napisał(a):

> The simple answer is secondary, tertiary and unclassified roads in many
> areas of the world have the same importance, so rendering them
> drastically differently is a mistake!

As the problem of rendering tertiary roads seems to be still not
resolved properly for significant part of community, there is now a new
proposition discussed, which is quite subtle regarding differences you
mentioned:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1974#issuecomment-157090146

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