New road style for the Default map style - the second version. And thanks for rural test locations!

[Mateusz Konieczny-2]

I published new diary entry. It includes preview of now differently
rendered highway=motorway and highway=trunk, possible changes to
rendering railway=rail, proposed change to rendering of minor service
tram tracks and more.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35437

Thanks for all test locations of rural areas! It is really useful.

Also - is anybody aware about city where
- landuse is mapped
- highway=residential/unclassified/track is used correctly both in city
  and nearby area
- buildings and roads are mapped

In other words - is there a perfectly mapped town/city?

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Paul Johnson-3]

I think I'm still in heavy preference towards the more distinctive colors and level of detail of the existing mapnik, but I do like the smaller line weights for residential.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

I published new diary entry. It includes preview of now differently
rendered highway=motorway and highway=trunk, possible changes to
rendering railway=rail, proposed change to rendering of minor service
tram tracks and more.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35437

Thanks for all test locations of rural areas! It is really useful.

Also - is anybody aware about city where
- landuse is mapped
- highway=residential/unclassified/track is used correctly both in city
  and nearby area
- buildings and roads are mapped

In other words - is there a perfectly mapped town/city?

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Mateusz Konieczny-2]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 11:01:55 +0200
Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I published new diary entry

There is also older entry, primarily about rendering surface tag
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35416

It was not mentioned on this mailing list.

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[André Riedel]

2015-07-23 11:01 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
> It includes preview of now differently rendered highway=motorway and highway=trunk
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35437

For me the way motorways and trunks are rendered in the german style
looks better.
http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=11&lat=48.8538&lon=21.23702&layers=B000TF

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[lsces]

On 23/07/15 14:53, André Riedel wrote:
> For me the way motorways and trunks are rendered in the german style
> looks better.

This is going to a sticking point much of the time. Certainly if the
colours change form the current set, then I think we will be looking to
provide a 'UK' rendering even if that means only covering the UK area.
There is not a 'single' answer that will ever cover the whole planet,
and keeping the 5 colours in the UK is important.

From a UK point of view there nothing wrong with
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.1106/-2.0754 and certainly that
is what is needed for any routing system.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[André Riedel]

It is not the coloring. I would prefer the rendering of motorway and
trunk with a outer and a inner line.

better:
XIX
XIX
XIX

than:
XX
XX
XX

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Paul Johnson-3]

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Lester Caine <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 23/07/15 14:53, André Riedel wrote:
> For me the way motorways and trunks are rendered in the german style
> looks better.

This is going to a sticking point much of the time. Certainly if the
colours change form the current set, then I think we will be looking to
provide a 'UK' rendering even if that means only covering the UK area.
There is not a 'single' answer that will ever cover the whole planet,
and keeping the 5 colours in the UK is important.

From a UK point of view there nothing wrong with
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.1106/-2.0754 and certainly that
is what is needed for any routing system

I think the standard Mapnik needs to be as generic as possible.  Certainly the German model (also used by Navigon, especially before their merger with Garmin) fails on it's face quite similarly to how the iconically American style that Rand McNally popularized (and emulated regularly by Thomas Brothers, MapQuest, and early versions of Google Maps) does.  I'm not too intimately familiar with other styles, though I believe the existing Mapnik is a bit more universal than either model (roughly splitting the difference), even if American users unfamiliar with the style are unused to seeing surface expressways (trunks) rendered differently than primaries, and are likely to go "wait, that's a toll road?" seeing green...

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[lsces]

On 23/07/15 15:37, André Riedel wrote:

> It is not the coloring. I would prefer the rendering of motorway and
> trunk with a outer and a inner line.
>
> better:
> XIX
> XIX
> XIX
>
> than:
> XX
> XX
> XX

Do you mean like this
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.17024/-2.18493&layers=Q or
something else?

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Mateusz Konieczny-2]

On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:07:59 +0100
Lester Caine <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From a UK point of view there nothing wrong with
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.1106/-2.0754 and certainly
> that is what is needed for any routing system.

Yes, this part of map is not bad. I am not entirely sure whatever it
will be true after landuse will be mapped.

Readability of nearby
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.2325/-1.5484 is poor, despite
that landuse composition is quite favourable and forest rather not
appearing near trunk roads.

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[lsces]

On 23/07/15 17:04, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

> Lester Caine <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> > From a UK point of view there nothing wrong with
>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.1106/-2.0754 and certainly
>> > that is what is needed for any routing system.
> Yes, this part of map is not bad. I am not entirely sure whatever it
> will be true after landuse will be mapped.
>
> Readability of nearby
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.2325/-1.5484 is poor, despite
> that landuse composition is quite favourable and forest rather not
> appearing near trunk roads.

The random use of FARM for large areas is totally inappropriate, and
personally I'd remove the bulk of those areas ... or cover the rest of
the UK. Using 'farm' for the central farm area makes much more sense and
is what is the normal standard south of 'Birmingham Farm' area ;)

But all of the heavy detail should be an a separate layer so we can
actually see the farms in the farmland areas.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Andy Townsend]

On 23/07/2015 19:13, Lester Caine wrote:
>
> The random use of FARM for large areas is totally inappropriate, and
> personally I'd remove the bulk of those areas ... or cover the rest of
> the UK. Using 'farm' for the central farm area makes much more sense and
> is what is the normal standard south of 'Birmingham Farm' area ;)

It's actually "farmland" rather than farm, and therefore tagged
correctly.  If it was me I'd use a lightly colour for farmland so that
farmyards (also tagged correctly in that area) stand out a bit more
(obligatory "Blue Peter"** link http://imgur.com/L6l2g3z * to compare
with http://b.tile.openstreetmap.org/12/2028/1348.png ).

You can argue whether or not populating most of England with
landuse=farmland is a good use of anyone's time, but you can't argue
that it's wrong :)

Cheers,

Andy

* and FWIW that I believe is a better trunk option ("primary" red with
dark red casing) than what we have now too.

** For those unaware with the British meme - a children's television
programme that used to show kids how to make things out of odds and
ends, and then at the end reappear with "and here is one I made earlier!".


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[lsces]

On 23/07/15 19:34, Andy Townsend wrote:
> It's actually "farmland" rather than farm, and therefore tagged
> correctly.  If it was me I'd use a lightly colour for farmland so that
> farmyards (also tagged correctly in that area) stand out a bit more
> (obligatory "Blue Peter"** link http://imgur.com/L6l2g3z * to compare
> with http://b.tile.openstreetmap.org/12/2028/1348.png ).

The legend says 'Farm', and 'Farmyard' is a distinct land use from
farmland, so they should be distinguishable, and while we don't 'tag for
the renderer' ....

> You can argue whether or not populating most of England with
> landuse=farmland is a good use of anyone's time, but you can't argue
> that it's wrong :)
What is needed is proper tagging of fields rather than adding random
areas of 'farmland' where the land outside of that is also farmland
anyway. So yes I would argue that some of these areas are wrong when
they have some arbitrary boundary through the middle of farmland.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Andy Townsend]

On 23/07/2015 19:49, Lester Caine wrote:
> On 23/07/15 19:34, Andy Townsend wrote:
>> It's actually "farmland" rather than farm, and therefore tagged
>> correctly.  If it was me I'd use a lightly colour for farmland so that
>> farmyards (also tagged correctly in that area) stand out a bit more
>> (obligatory "Blue Peter"** link http://imgur.com/L6l2g3z * to compare
>> with http://b.tile.openstreetmap.org/12/2028/1348.png ).
> The legend says 'Farm', and 'Farmyard' is a distinct land use from
> farmland, so they should be distinguishable, and while we don't 'tag for
> the renderer' ....

Oh, _that_ legend:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1268

>
>> You can argue whether or not populating most of England with
>> landuse=farmland is a good use of anyone's time, but you can't argue
>> that it's wrong :)
> What is needed is proper tagging of fields rather than adding random
> areas of 'farmland' where the land outside of that is also farmland
> anyway. So yes I would argue that some of these areas are wrong when
> they have some arbitrary boundary through the middle of farmland.
>

FWIW I personally tend to only add landuse when I've surveyed and added
all the gates, stiles, gaps, hedges, walls, fences etc. - but it's an
entirely personal choice.

Cheers,

Andy


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

> Am 23.07.2015 um 20:49 schrieb Lester Caine <[hidden email]>:
>
> The legend says 'Farm', and 'Farmyard' is a distinct land use from
> farmland, so they should be distinguishable,


the wiki says farm and farmland are synonyms in osm, but farmland should be preferred for reasons of ambiguity. Farmyard is distinct from these.

cheers
Martin
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

> Am 23.07.2015 um 20:49 schrieb Lester Caine <[hidden email]>:
>
> What is needed is proper tagging of fields rather than adding random
> areas of 'farmland' where the land outside of that is also farmland
> anyway. So yes I would argue that some of these areas are wrong when
> they have some arbitrary boundary through the middle of farmland.


+1, huge arbitrary farmland areas are pointless and hide the actual white spots where there would be something still to map.

cheers
Martin
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[André Riedel]

2015-07-23 16:52 GMT+02:00 Lester Caine <[hidden email]>:

> On 23/07/15 15:37, André Riedel wrote:
>> It is not the coloring. I would prefer the rendering of motorway and
>> trunk with a outer and a inner line.
>>
>> better:
>> XIX
>> XIX
>> XIX
>>
>> than:
>> XX
>> XX
>> XX
>
> Do you mean like this
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.17024/-2.18493&layers=Q or
> something else?

Yes, of course. But the german style is closer to the colors of Mateusz.

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Simone Cortesi]

On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:58 AM, André Riedel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Do you mean like this
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.17024/-2.18493&layers=Q or
> something else?

Yes, of course. But the german style is closer to the colors of Mateusz.

As well it is close to the Italian one too. I like it!

--

-S

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri Jul 24 09:45:06 2015 GMT+0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Am 23.07.2015 um 20:49 schrieb Lester Caine <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > What is needed is proper tagging of fields rather than adding random
> > areas of 'farmland' where the land outside of that is also farmland
> > anyway. So yes I would argue that some of these areas are wrong when
> > they have some arbitrary boundary through the middle of farmland.
>
>
> +1, huge arbitrary farmland areas are pointless and hide the actual white spots where there would be something still to map.
>

+1
The same issues occur with vast residential areas.

Phil (trigpoint)

--
Sent from my Jolla
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[lsces]

On 24/07/15 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> the wiki says farm and farmland are synonyms in osm, but farmland should be preferred for reasons of ambiguity. Farmyard is distinct from these.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Farm
The Farm itself is always identified separately to the surrounding areas
and I read THAT page as saying landuse=farm is not valid.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarm has so few entries
tagged that I am sure it could be 'retired' now?

As others have said - generally covering large areas as 'farmland' is
not helping anybody ...

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Richard Mann-2]

Re central reservations on dual carriageways:

I did this for my local map:

http://www.transportparadise.co.uk/cyclemap/?zoom=2&lat=51.7245&lon=-1.24708&layers=B0FF

by adding a barrier=central_reservation way (with a further tag saying what it was dividing)

I'd be a bit wary of using a two-stage casing to achieve a similar effect, because

1) it'll take a lot of fiddling to get it to look good at a variety of zooms, and with a variety of carriageway-separations

2) it's hard to make links work (you have to interweave the casing levels)

Richard

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk