OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
58 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Pmailkeey .
iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not show oneway at all.

In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not appear at all.

The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the '=yes' is superfluous.

OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.

Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies) an object fits in


A fountain is a fountain. It does not matter if it is 
  • an amenity
  • man made
  • natural water (???!!)
etc. Such categorization is semi-ambiguous; people think differently and are happy to categorize differently - and more - argue over categories.

OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but sadly lacking a great leader.

--
Mike.
@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via the area's premier website - 

currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & pets


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Eugene Alvin Villar

On Jun 3, 2015 8:06 AM, "pmailkeey ." <[hidden email]> wrote:
> OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. [...] OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but sadly lacking a great leader.

It seems you are deeply unsatisfied with how OSM works. And your broad assertions such as that OSM is "not fit" or is "90% argument" are completely unfounded. Sure, OSM is not perfect but I seriously doubt that the k=v design or some other point you have raised is the culprit.

Feel free to leave and create a separate project. You can even be the "great leader" for that new project that you think OSM needs. If your ideas are indeed better, then your project will succeed and you can then prove OSM wrong.


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Warin
In reply to this post by Pmailkeey .
On 3/06/2015 10:04 AM, pmailkeey . wrote:

>
> OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw.
> Similarly are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.
>
> Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what
> categor(ies) an object fits in
>
>
>
> OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The
> whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'.
> Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant
> project but sadly lacking a great leader.
>
>

Design?
A horse designed by a committee? = a camel.
Yes it has flaws. It also has enhancements .. like going for a long
while without water.
I view OSM the same way .. it could be better .. and it could be much
worse.

Hard Facts?
  OSM has an organisation. Some (most) may not like some of it.
Any collection of objects needs some organisation ... look in a library
for instance.


MOST use OSM. 90% will be out there adding things. Only a few join here
to add tags, and fewer still try to improve the structure.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

John F. Eldredge
In reply to this post by Pmailkeey .

The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way.

--
John F. Eldredge -- [hidden email]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

On June 2, 2015 7:06:26 PM "pmailkeey ." <[hidden email]> wrote:

iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not show oneway at all.

In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not appear at all.

The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the '=yes' is superfluous.

OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.

Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies) an object fits in


A fountain is a fountain. It does not matter if it is 
  • an amenity
  • man made
  • natural water (???!!)
etc. Such categorization is semi-ambiguous; people think differently and are happy to categorize differently - and more - argue over categories.

OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but sadly lacking a great leader.

--
Mike.
@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via the area's premier website - 

currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & pets

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

brycenesbitt
In reply to this post by Pmailkeey .
On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 5:04 PM, pmailkeey . <[hidden email]> wrote:
iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not show oneway at all.
OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.
Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies) an object fits in

--
Mike.
@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via the area's premier website - 
currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & pets

Perhaps http://wikimapia.org/ will better match your needs, and offer more peace for your family, property and pets.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Pmailkeey .
In reply to this post by Warin


On 3 June 2015 at 01:23, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:


MOST use OSM. 90% will be out there adding things. Only a few join here to add tags, and fewer still try to improve the structure.


That is quite possibly one of the big issues with it. And TBH, it's such a shame. More regulated activity in the very early days and less random input. Having said that, it's quite possibly the first random input project ever ! 


--
Mike.
@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via the area's premier website - 

currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & pets


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Pmailkeey .
In reply to this post by John F. Eldredge


On 3 June 2015 at 01:28, John Eldredge <[hidden email]> wrote:

The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way.


No tag
Tag oneway
tag twoway

not an'equals' in sight  and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway.
--
Mike.
@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via the area's premier website - 

currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & pets


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Pmailkeey .
In reply to this post by brycenesbitt


On 3 June 2015 at 01:36, Bryce Nesbitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
Perhaps http://wikimapia.org/ will better match your needs, and offer more peace for your family, property and pets.

Well, on Monday the 'prison' idea went out the window. Having me and my brother accused of ill-treating our mother - two , nay, 3 visits to court in preparation for a trial - but now the prosecution say they've no evidence.



It's a ton of worry off my shoulders



Just another 19 similar tons to go.

God, it's just so bloody awful what they do to 'vulnerable adults' (Mum has dementia) in this country.


It was the National Health Service that caused severe distress to my cat - needing veterinary treatment.


--
Mike.
@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via the area's premier website - 

currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & pets


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Eugene Alvin Villar
In reply to this post by Eugene Alvin Villar
On 6/3/15, Steve Coast <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 6:22 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Jun 3, 2015 8:06 AM, "pmailkeey ." <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>> > OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. [...] OSM
>> > is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is
>> > not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a
>> > significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but
>> > sadly lacking a great leader.
>>
>> It seems you are deeply unsatisfied with how OSM works. And your broad
>> assertions such as that OSM is "not fit" or is "90% argument" are
>> completely unfounded.
>>
>
> I don’t know; there are a bunch of fairly key and active OSM people who
> unsubscribed from the lists precisely because they felt it was mostly
> circular argument.

Yes, people leave mailing lists because of the endless arguments and
constant bike-shedding. But that does not constitute 90% of OSM. I am
willing to bet that majority if not 90% of OSM activity is of mappers
actually mapping. Mailing list discussions is a really small slice of
the overall OSM activity.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Warin
In reply to this post by Pmailkeey .
On 3/06/2015 10:39 AM, pmailkeey . wrote:


On 3 June 2015 at 01:23, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:


MOST use OSM. 90% will be out there adding things. Only a few join here to add tags, and fewer still try to improve the structure.


That is quite possibly one of the big issues with it. And TBH, it's such a shame. More regulated activity in the very early days and less random input. Having said that, it's quite possibly the first random input project ever ! 

:-)

I like the random input idea .. something about those monkeys typing a book .. wonder how they'd go making a map?

--------------
Some words of 'encouragement'

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

George Bernard Shaw


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Pmailkeey .
In reply to this post by Eugene Alvin Villar


On 3 June 2015 at 01:37, Tom MacWright <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Mike,

Please propose an alternative.

I see an awful lot of good in OSM and I think it's a great project. I've had it agreed with another about it being such a mess - but the fact it's such a worthwhile project it's worth battling on with it - even if, sadly, others have succumbed to the nightmares around every corner. An alternative would be wrong, it is this that needs fixing and it needs a lot of 'tricky' effort to see the good from the not so good. It's like one team at both ends of a thick 'tug of war' rope, not really sure which way to pull for the best whilst each has in their hand only a mere strand to that rope. I think everything is overwhelmed yet the whole thing is clearly in its infancy - with diseases, viruses and god-knows what being thrown at it at all times from all angles.

The freedom to make up any tags is brilliant while likely being one of the biggest problems - that not simply throws simple problems but really complex multi-dimensional ones with 'language' issues for one thing, the fact OSM is secretly 2 maps (at least!!) in one where in the main the two are compatible and other places where clearly they're not. Computers frequently come up with an answer. OSM rarely does; likely many answers or none at all. Digital, analogue, fuzzy logic all put into a blender and whizzed for a few seconds - and each time this is tried a different result is found. Consistently inconsistent. 

I think in the end it will work - but the effort required to get there will be far greater than the sum of its parts.

Take one aspect - quality - there's the whole gamut from true to false - anyone can't assume anything about OSM data - and if different people around the world wrote a report on it, none of the resulting reports would agree !

I can't produce some magic answer without some agreement :)

--
Mike.
@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via the area's premier website - 

currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & pets


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Andreas Goss
In reply to this post by Pmailkeey .
> No tag
> Tag oneway
> tag twoway
>
> not an'equals' in sight  and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway.

I would say that's much worse both for mappers as well as consumers. Not
even to mention documentation, because now you have two wiki pages which
again is always a good source for errors.

As a mapper I now have to check for both tags, there can be
contradictions, QA Tools can't just check one value etc.

For consumers the same. They now have to check two keys instead of one.

And then this isn't the only case. Every yes/no would then be like that
which would be a nightmare, because you will 2x the amount of tags, wiki
pages and everything else that has to be kep up to date. No to mention
that is simple doesn't work if it's not just 2 pairs like bus=yes/no...
are you going to use no_bus=yes instead?
__________
openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess

Maarten Deen
In reply to this post by Pmailkeey .
On 2015-06-03 02:04, pmailkeey . wrote:
> iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should
> not show oneway at all.

I agree.

> In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not
> appear at all.

Here I don't agree.

> The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and
> the '=yes' is superfluous.

Some roads are implied oneway. E.g. junction=roundabout and
highway=motorway both imply that the road is one-way only. If for some
reason the object in case is not oneway, a oneway=no tag is very much
needed.

I agree that in every case where oneway=yes is not implied, oneway=no is
superfluous (in a network design way), but that does not make oneway=no
superfluous.

There is also the occurence of oneway=-1 in case someone reverses the
direction of a way. What should be done when the only possibility for
oneway is either set or unset and the direction gets reversed? Should
reversing be disallowed? Should you get a warning "oneway street can not
be reversed"?

Maarten


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess

Shawn K. Quinn
On Wed, 2015-06-03 at 08:00 +0200, Maarten Deen wrote:

> On 2015-06-03 02:04, pmailkeey . wrote:
> > iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should
> > not show oneway at all.
>
> I agree.
>
> > In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not
> > appear at all.
>
> Here I don't agree.
>
> > The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and
> > the '=yes' is superfluous.
>
> Some roads are implied oneway. E.g. junction=roundabout and
> highway=motorway both imply that the road is one-way only. If for some
> reason the object in case is not oneway, a oneway=no tag is very much
> needed.

I think highway=motorway_link is also implied one-way. Are there any
others?

> There is also the occurence of oneway=-1 in case someone reverses the
> direction of a way. What should be done when the only possibility for
> oneway is either set or unset and the direction gets reversed? Should
> reversing be disallowed? Should you get a warning "oneway street can not
> be reversed"?

oneway=-1 now triggers a validation warning in JOSM. I have yet to see a
case where oneway=-1 is truly needed. Do any exist?

--
Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess

dieterdreist




> Am 03.06.2015 um 10:39 schrieb Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>:
>
> I have yet to see a
> case where oneway=-1 is truly needed. Do any exist?


it depends what is "truly needed", most attributes and tags can be inverted without changing the way direction (forward, left, incline etc). Those ways that are direction dependent like coastline, retaining_wall, cliff etc are typically not describing features in the middle of a road


cheers
Martin
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Richard Z.
In reply to this post by John F. Eldredge
On Tue, Jun 02, 2015 at 07:28:11PM -0500, John Eldredge wrote:
> The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a
> oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is one-way
> or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using
> one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way.

not really ideal. Should we use

 oneway=uknown

for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express
that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont
know or make a mess of the data.

Richard

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess

Maarten Deen
In reply to this post by Maarten Deen
On 2015-06-03 12:08, Shaun McDonald wrote:
>> On 3 Jun 2015, at 07:00, Maarten Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I agree that in every case where oneway=yes is not implied, oneway=no
>> is superfluous (in a network design way), but that does not make
>> oneway=no superfluous.
>>
>
> There are some cases where oneway=no is useful. For example an area
> where there is lots of one way streets and only a few that are two
> way, adding the oneway=no confirms that the data is correct rather
> than the oneway=yes being missing. Similarly where a street was oneway
> previously and has recently been made two way, this makes it explicit
> that it is now two way in addition to whatever changeset note there
> may be.

Yes, that's why I said "in a network design way". Looking at the data,
oneway=no is not necessary on any object where it is not implied.
However, adding it does make clear to people editing the map that it is
not an omission if surrounding objects are all oneway=yes.

Regards,
Maarten

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Richard Z.




> Am 03.06.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Richard <[hidden email]>:
>
> oneway=uknown
>
> for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express
> that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont
> know or make a mess of the data.


armchair mappers without local knowledge are not the preferred source anyway, but foo=unknown is a really bad idea that should not become standard.

Otherwise a lot more tags can be added with very few benefit:
maxheight =unknown
maxspeed, maxwidth, snowmobile, horse, foot, bicycle, hgv, hazmat, surface, name, ref, lanes, start_date, width, operator, cycleway, bus, psv, etc =unknown

We could also add turn_restrictions with unknown restrictions, e.g.
type=restriction
restriction=unknown
from to via etc.

Or we could draw unknown objects under the ice shelves of greenland, the antarctica or in other permafrost regions.

cheers
Martin
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Richard Z.
On Wed, Jun 03, 2015 at 12:44:13PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > Am 03.06.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Richard <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > oneway=uknown
> >
> > for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express
> > that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont
> > know or make a mess of the data.
>
>
> armchair mappers without local knowledge are not the preferred source anyway, but foo=unknown is a really bad idea that should not become standard.
>
> Otherwise a lot more tags can be added with very few benefit:
> maxheight =unknown
> maxspeed, maxwidth, snowmobile, horse, foot, bicycle, hgv, hazmat, surface, name, ref, lanes, start_date, width, operator, cycleway, bus, psv, etc =unknown

constructive criticism please. You can ridicule whole OSM like this if you
substitute the "unknown" for "no". Nobody is saying that those should be
used on every object but judicious use may be better than the alternatives.

Better ideas?

Richard

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

Sachin Dole

If oneway=unknown is not present then it already is implicitly there. Too many tags showing that something is unknown may not be needed.


On Wed, Jun 3, 2015, 6:49 AM Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 03, 2015 at 12:44:13PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > Am 03.06.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Richard <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > oneway=uknown
> >
> > for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express
> > that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont
> > know or make a mess of the data.
>
>
> armchair mappers without local knowledge are not the preferred source anyway, but foo=unknown is a really bad idea that should not become standard.
>
> Otherwise a lot more tags can be added with very few benefit:
> maxheight =unknown
> maxspeed, maxwidth, snowmobile, horse, foot, bicycle, hgv, hazmat, surface, name, ref, lanes, start_date, width, operator, cycleway, bus, psv, etc =unknown

constructive criticism please. You can ridicule whole OSM like this if you
substitute the "unknown" for "no". Nobody is saying that those should be
used on every object but judicious use may be better than the alternatives.

Better ideas?

Richard

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
123