Opening hours too long for OSM

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Opening hours too long for OSM

Tobias Zwick
Hey there!

So, a user of StreetComplete came across the following complicated
opening hours for a shop (prettified):

Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
Jun-Sep: Su 10:00-12:00;
Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
Apr-May: Sa 10:00-12:30;
Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;
Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
Oct: Su 10:00-12:00

Unfortunately, this does not fit into the opening_hours value, as this
is limited to 255 characters. What can we do?

Is there any generic way to treat an overflowing tag? Perhaps use a
second key to store the rest, something like (in this case)

opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;Jun-Sep: Su
10:00-12:00;Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;Apr-May:
Sa 10:00-12:30;Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;Oct: Mo-Fr
10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;Oct: Sa 10
opening_hours_1=:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00

?

Greetings
Tobias

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Jmapb
On 10/11/2018 5:21 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:

> Hey there!
>
> So, a user of StreetComplete came across the following complicated
> opening hours for a shop (prettified):
>
> Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
> Jun-Sep: Su 10:00-12:00;
> Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
> Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
> Apr-May: Sa 10:00-12:30;
> Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;
> Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
> Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
> Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>
> Unfortunately, this does not fit into the opening_hours value, as this
> is limited to 255 characters. What can we do?
>
> Is there any generic way to treat an overflowing tag? Perhaps use a
> second key to store the rest, something like (in this case)
>
> opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;Jun-Sep: Su
> 10:00-12:00;Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;Apr-May:
> Sa 10:00-12:30;Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;Oct: Mo-Fr
> 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;Oct: Sa 10
> opening_hours_1=:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>
> ?
>
> Greetings
> Tobias
>

Do we really need to re-declare the month ranges each time? I would
think that

   opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00; Su10:00-12:00; Nov-Mar:
Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00; Sa 10:00-12:00; Apr-May: Mo-Fr
10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30; Su 10:00-12:00; Oct: Mo-Fr
10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00

...would work just as well. Seems to pass muster at
openingh.openstreetmap.de and it's a svelte 251 chars.

This doesn't answer the real question of course, because certainly
longer values are possible, especially when exceptions for holidays etc
are tacked on. Lengthening the field would be great, but failing that I
suppose opening_hours_1 is an ok stopgap, though it's unlikely there's
any end-user software that will look for it. One thing I'd recommend,
though, is not to end truncate the value mid-clause. In your example,
I'd probably put all of October in opening_hours_1 so that the standard
opening_hours tag is correct and parseable on its own.

J

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Robin Schneider
On 10/11/18 11:47 PM, Jmapb wrote:

> On 10/11/2018 5:21 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>
>> Hey there!
>>
>> So, a user of StreetComplete came across the following complicated
>> opening hours for a shop (prettified):
>>
>> Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
>> Jun-Sep: Su 10:00-12:00;
>> Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
>> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
>> Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
>> Apr-May: Sa 10:00-12:30;
>> Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;
>> Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
>> Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
>> Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>>
>> Unfortunately, this does not fit into the opening_hours value, as this
>> is limited to 255 characters. What can we do?

Hey :)

I would say your best bet is to try to shorten the opening_hours values using
every little trick that the syntax has to offer, for example you can join the
month ranges which is enough to bring you under 255 characters.

Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00,15:00-17:00;
Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
Apr-May,Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
Apr-May,Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
Apr-May,Jun-Oct: Su 10:00-12:00

You can then use the "value to compare to the first value:" feature of
https://openingh.ypid.de/evaluation_tool/ to check that you still preserved the
original meaning.

I don’t have much to add in case you can not bring the value under 255 only that
I also don’t know any software which would handle that. I guess having the
special cases in an additional tag and `opening_hours` fully valid would be best
then.

    opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00; Su10:00-12:00; Nov-Mar:
Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00; Sa 10:00-12:00; Apr-May: Mo-Fr
10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30; Su 10:00-12:00; Oct: Mo-Fr
10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00

This won’t work. I had an idea for doing that but this is not supported yet:
https://github.com/opening-hours/opening_hours.js#todo

--
Live long and prosper
Robin `ypid` Schneider -- https://me.ypid.de/

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

SimonPoole
We have a number of keys for which the values can easily exceed 255 chars besides opening_hours, lane destinations and conditional restrictions are good candidates. Not to mention changeset tags. With other words it is a general problem which should be tackled with a general solution.

One would be to extend at least the available space in the database for tag values, however that is a significant amount of work (see https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/1593) and I suspect it is unlikely to find support.

The other way to address this would be to provide a general value extension syntax that editors and consumers could support for example say key-ext-nnn  The exact semantics would need to be determined (how to split and join long values) and the key syntax needs to be chosen to minimize possible conflicts.

Simon



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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

SimonPoole

PS: an extension syntax has the advantage of not breaking downstream consumers that are relying on maximum 255 char strings, which is probably a valid concern. A max length change should probably wait in any case till there are other data model changes (aka API 0.7 :-)) to minimize the impact.


Am 12.10.2018 um 01:27 schrieb Simon Poole:
We have a number of keys for which the values can easily exceed 255 chars besides opening_hours, lane destinations and conditional restrictions are good candidates. Not to mention changeset tags. With other words it is a general problem which should be tackled with a general solution.

One would be to extend at least the available space in the database for tag values, however that is a significant amount of work (see https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/1593) and I suspect it is unlikely to find support.

The other way to address this would be to provide a general value extension syntax that editors and consumers could support for example say key-ext-nnn  The exact semantics would need to be determined (how to split and join long values) and the key syntax needs to be chosen to minimize possible conflicts.

Simon




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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Tobias Zwick
In reply to this post by Jmapb
>Do we really need to re-declare the month ranges each time? I would
>think that
>
>   opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00; Su10:00-12:00; Nov-Mar:
>Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00; Sa 10:00-12:00; Apr-May: Mo-Fr
>10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30; Su 10:00-12:00; Oct: Mo-Fr
>10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>
>...would work just as well. Seems to pass muster at
>openingh.openstreetmap.de and it's a svelte 251 chars.

Unfortunately, that does not work. According to the specs, every rule must specify its own months range. If you don't, that rule applies throughout the whole year. E.g.

Jun: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00; Sun 10:00-12:00

is interpreted as "open Mo-Sa 10-18 o'clock in June, always open on Sunday 10-12 o'clock".

Tobias

Am 11. Oktober 2018 23:47:06 MESZ schrieb Jmapb <[hidden email]>:

>On 10/11/2018 5:21 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>
>> Hey there!
>>
>> So, a user of StreetComplete came across the following complicated
>> opening hours for a shop (prettified):
>>
>> Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
>> Jun-Sep: Su 10:00-12:00;
>> Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
>> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
>> Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
>> Apr-May: Sa 10:00-12:30;
>> Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;
>> Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
>> Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
>> Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>>
>> Unfortunately, this does not fit into the opening_hours value, as
>this
>> is limited to 255 characters. What can we do?
>>
>> Is there any generic way to treat an overflowing tag? Perhaps use a
>> second key to store the rest, something like (in this case)
>>
>> opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;Jun-Sep: Su
>> 10:00-12:00;Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
>> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;Apr-May: Mo-Fr
>10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;Apr-May:
>> Sa 10:00-12:30;Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;Oct: Mo-Fr
>> 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;Oct: Sa 10
>> opening_hours_1=:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Greetings
>> Tobias
>>
>
>Do we really need to re-declare the month ranges each time? I would
>think that
>
>   opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00; Su10:00-12:00; Nov-Mar:
>Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00; Sa 10:00-12:00; Apr-May: Mo-Fr
>10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30; Su 10:00-12:00; Oct: Mo-Fr
>10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>
>...would work just as well. Seems to pass muster at
>openingh.openstreetmap.de and it's a svelte 251 chars.
>
>This doesn't answer the real question of course, because certainly
>longer values are possible, especially when exceptions for holidays etc
>
>are tacked on. Lengthening the field would be great, but failing that I
>
>suppose opening_hours_1 is an ok stopgap, though it's unlikely there's
>any end-user software that will look for it. One thing I'd recommend,
>though, is not to end truncate the value mid-clause. In your example,
>I'd probably put all of October in opening_hours_1 so that the standard
>
>opening_hours tag is correct and parseable on its own.
>
>J
>
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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Warin
If they are going to make it complex ... retaliate and make it simple?

opening_hours="see the web site."




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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Jmapb
Am 11.10.2018 um 23:47 schrieb Jmapb:
...
 Lengthening the field would be great, but failing that I suppose opening_hours_1 is an ok stopgap, though it's unlikely there's any end-user software that will look for it. One thing I'd recommend, though, is not to end truncate the value mid-clause. In your example, I'd probably put all of October in opening_hours_1 so that the standard opening_hours tag is correct and parseable on its own.
Just in case somebody jumps on this: using iDs multiple value convention for this would be a very bad idea (because we are splitting a single value that needs to be concatenated back together, and you don't want that to happen with an object that has multiple OH values). Matter of fact because of iD using the _n notation, an extension convention would likely need to use something else, perhaps #n

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Tordanik
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
> Am 12.10.2018 um 01:27 schrieb Simon Poole:
>> We have a number of keys for which the values can easily exceed 255
>> chars besides opening_hours, lane destinations and conditional
>> restrictions are good candidates. Not to mention changeset tags. With
>> other words it is a general problem which should be tackled with a
>> general solution.

I agree that this problem calls for a general solution, as it's not
specific to opening hours. And yes, an extension syntax seems like a
good choice for now. While it's going to be entered manually at first,
it would allow transparent editor support, and possibly an automatic
conversion if any future API revision should support longer values natively.

We need to make sure that this can be implemented in a key-agnostic
manner, though, i.e. by simply concatenating the values. This means: No
key-specific exceptions such as omitting semicolons in an opening hours
string.

I don't have any strong opinions on the syntax, but it should be
something that doesn't clash with existing uses. Tobias' suggestion to
use _2 suffixes would overlap with things like name_2 that are currently
used in the database, so I'd prefer using something else. Maybe double
underscores, or a character such as # that's not typically used in keys
at all?

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238eee
In reply to this post by Warin
> opening_hours="see the web site."

If one doesn't intend to tag the opening hours, then one better uses the "website" tag [1] and not the "opening_hours" one.

But it would be a pity one doesn't document opening hours due to a technical limitation.

As to improving (thinking out loud here...), couldn't one envisage an enhancement to document opening hours with "opening_hours:jan_sep=08:00-12:00" and "opening_hours:ph::jan_sep=08:00-16:00" if the place is opened in the afternoon only on public holidays, for examples ?

Of course, data consumers must be adapted, but it doesn't break anything or doesn't require to change the technical limitation.

And maybe a more radical improvement and definitive solution would be to go towards a semantic web [2], so the data doesn't need to be in the OSM database but there is a link to query data hosted outside OSM. A bit like for "wikidata" tag. [3]

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:website
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_web
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wikidata



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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Tordanik
Hi,

On 10/12/2018 12:54 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> I agree that this problem calls for a general solution, as it's not
> specific to opening hours.

The "problem" in my eyes is people even wanting to store more than 255
characters in a tag value. Don't do it.

Yes I can see how use cases can be constructed that "need" this but I
think it is perfectly ok that some things cannot be mapped in 100%
detail. Just like we have a limited resolution (of about one
centrimetre) and we're usually happy to approximate a curve with a few
nodes and not 100. Do we *really* need to record when a shop is open
8-18h except on the third Wednesday in even months, if that Wednesday
does not happen to be before or after a public holiday?

Or can we afford to just skip mapping that detail?

> We need to make sure that this can be implemented in a key-agnostic
> manner, though

Why, so that people are free to invent any number of keys to hold
arbitrary length values? Reality check! Tags are supposed to be readable
and writable by human beings. If you find you need > 255 characters to
describe opening hours, then you've left that terrain already. Why not
write Tobias' original example as

H4sIABrJwFsAA/MqzdMNTi2wUvDN1w1OVDA0sDIw0DW0AJLWXF4wueBSmIQRWMIvv0zXN7EIpEkn
pFQnJEPHrQhZhY6CoSmYY46qHGEBxBzHgiKgRCXYcmQTjA10oAZYoKpDNsAYRQLNhf7JJQRNBatB
NxEiiGIaFwARtRivJAEAAA==

then, only takes 179 bytes ;)

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

SimonPoole


Am 12.10.2018 um 18:37 schrieb Frederik Ramm:
> Hi,
>
> On 10/12/2018 12:54 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote:
>> I agree that this problem calls for a general solution, as it's not
>> specific to opening hours.
> ...
>
> Or can we afford to just skip mapping that detail?
>
It is all fine and dandy for us to abstractly discuss such things, it is
another to explain to Josephine mapper that no, the opening hours of the
shop you want to map are one character too long and you need to map less
detail. I just don't believe that "map less detail" is a concept that
you will be able to convey to a majority of contributors and trying to
do is likely futile.  The trend is simply the consequence of progressing
from the rough to the detailed.


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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Tobias Zwick
In reply to this post by Tobias Zwick
Regarding the general workaround of defining some common tag extension
scheme, the idea sounds good at first, but I think this cannot be the
solution after all.
Because, let's not fool ourselves, the application support for an
extension syntax will be almost non-existent. Just look at the support
for things like shop=books;stationery. Also, all QA-Tools will complain
about opening_hours or any other tag normally containing structured data
that is split along several keys to be wrong.

I think this can only be solved effectively centrally, and since Simon
mentioned an earlier ticket in openstreetmap-website, I opened a ticket
to request this:

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/2025

On 11/10/2018 23:21, Tobias Zwick wrote:

> Hey there!
>
> So, a user of StreetComplete came across the following complicated
> opening hours for a shop (prettified):
>
> Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
> Jun-Sep: Su 10:00-12:00;
> Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
> Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
> Apr-May: Sa 10:00-12:30;
> Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;
> Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
> Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
> Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>
> Unfortunately, this does not fit into the opening_hours value, as this
> is limited to 255 characters. What can we do?
>
> Is there any generic way to treat an overflowing tag? Perhaps use a
> second key to store the rest, something like (in this case)
>
> opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;Jun-Sep: Su
> 10:00-12:00;Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;Apr-May:
> Sa 10:00-12:30;Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;Oct: Mo-Fr
> 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;Oct: Sa 10
> opening_hours_1=:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>
> ?
>
> Greetings
> Tobias
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

bkil
In reply to this post by Robin Schneider
That looks like a nice improvement.

Additionally, I've always wondered why we need to enter :00 after
every hour and zero pad the hours? The shops themselves usually post
the opening hours as 9-17 - why can't we use this human friendly
abbreviation? I don't feel that it would be that much harder to parse.
(9-17h would also work for me) 9-17:30 and 9:30-17 are still
unambiguous (though, the latter looks a bit uglier at first).

I think this would greatly improve readability, make data entry faster
and less error prone and shorten the field all at the same time.

Is this fit for a proposal?

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 12:04 AM Robin Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 10/11/18 11:47 PM, Jmapb wrote:
> > On 10/11/2018 5:21 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> >
> >> Hey there!
> >>
> >> So, a user of StreetComplete came across the following complicated
> >> opening hours for a shop (prettified):
> >>
> >> Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
> >> Jun-Sep: Su 10:00-12:00;
> >> Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
> >> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
> >> Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
> >> Apr-May: Sa 10:00-12:30;
> >> Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;
> >> Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
> >> Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
> >> Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, this does not fit into the opening_hours value, as this
> >> is limited to 255 characters. What can we do?
>
> Hey :)
>
> I would say your best bet is to try to shorten the opening_hours values using
> every little trick that the syntax has to offer, for example you can join the
> month ranges which is enough to bring you under 255 characters.
>
> Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
> Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00,15:00-17:00;
> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
> Apr-May,Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
> Apr-May,Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
> Apr-May,Jun-Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>
> You can then use the "value to compare to the first value:" feature of
> https://openingh.ypid.de/evaluation_tool/ to check that you still preserved the
> original meaning.
>
> I don’t have much to add in case you can not bring the value under 255 only that
> I also don’t know any software which would handle that. I guess having the
> special cases in an additional tag and `opening_hours` fully valid would be best
> then.
>
>     opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00; Su10:00-12:00; Nov-Mar:
> Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00; Sa 10:00-12:00; Apr-May: Mo-Fr
> 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30; Su 10:00-12:00; Oct: Mo-Fr
> 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>
> This won’t work. I had an idea for doing that but this is not supported yet:
> https://github.com/opening-hours/opening_hours.js#todo
>
> --
> Live long and prosper
> Robin `ypid` Schneider -- https://me.ypid.de/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Allroads
In reply to this post by 19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238eee
https://github.com/opening-hours/opening_hours.js/issues/270
Thinking loud, I like a set of subcategories.
Basic set for a year, others for the fast change.
I find this a practical understandable solution.

From: OSMDoudou
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 5:22 PM
To: 'Tag discussion, strategy and related tools'
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Opening hours too long for OSM

As to improving (thinking out loud here...), ......

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Paul Allen
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 11:24 PM Allroads <[hidden email]> wrote:
https://github.com/opening-hours/opening_hours.js/issues/270
Thinking loud, I like a set of subcategories.
Basic set for a year, others for the fast change.
I find this a practical understandable solution.
 
Until I took a look at the github issue you raised, I thought your proposal was totally
incomprehensible.  Having read the github issue I now think it impractical and unworkable.

Computerized data consumers like apps can handle it.  Mappers and people using the map
query tool will not find it so easy.  It doesn't cope with seasonal hours well if there are more
than two divisions in the year.  Mappers may end up revising the yearly entry when they should
have modified the other entry and vice versa.

--
Paul


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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Tobias Zwick
In reply to this post by bkil
It is already part of the specification that "Mo-Fr 9-17" is possible.
Alas, QA tools / the openinghours evaluation tool emit a warning in this
case: "Time range without minutes specified. Not very explicit! Please
use this syntax instead "9:00-17:00"."
Not sure why that is not seen as explicit.

On 12/10/2018 22:29, bkil wrote:

> That looks like a nice improvement.
>
> Additionally, I've always wondered why we need to enter :00 after
> every hour and zero pad the hours? The shops themselves usually post
> the opening hours as 9-17 - why can't we use this human friendly
> abbreviation? I don't feel that it would be that much harder to parse.
> (9-17h would also work for me) 9-17:30 and 9:30-17 are still
> unambiguous (though, the latter looks a bit uglier at first).
>
> I think this would greatly improve readability, make data entry faster
> and less error prone and shorten the field all at the same time.
>
> Is this fit for a proposal?
>
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 12:04 AM Robin Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 10/11/18 11:47 PM, Jmapb wrote:
>>> On 10/11/2018 5:21 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey there!
>>>>
>>>> So, a user of StreetComplete came across the following complicated
>>>> opening hours for a shop (prettified):
>>>>
>>>> Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
>>>> Jun-Sep: Su 10:00-12:00;
>>>> Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00;
>>>> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
>>>> Apr-May: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
>>>> Apr-May: Sa 10:00-12:30;
>>>> Apr-May: Su 10:00-12:00;
>>>> Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
>>>> Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
>>>> Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, this does not fit into the opening_hours value, as this
>>>> is limited to 255 characters. What can we do?
>>
>> Hey :)
>>
>> I would say your best bet is to try to shorten the opening_hours values using
>> every little trick that the syntax has to offer, for example you can join the
>> month ranges which is enough to bring you under 255 characters.
>>
>> Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00;
>> Nov-Mar: Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00,15:00-17:00;
>> Nov-Mar: Sa 10:00-12:00;
>> Apr-May,Oct: Mo-Fr 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00;
>> Apr-May,Oct: Sa 10:00-12:30;
>> Apr-May,Jun-Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>>
>> You can then use the "value to compare to the first value:" feature of
>> https://openingh.ypid.de/evaluation_tool/ to check that you still preserved the
>> original meaning.
>>
>> I don’t have much to add in case you can not bring the value under 255 only that
>> I also don’t know any software which would handle that. I guess having the
>> special cases in an additional tag and `opening_hours` fully valid would be best
>> then.
>>
>>     opening_hours=Jun-Sep: Mo-Sa 10:00-18:00; Su10:00-12:00; Nov-Mar:
>> Mo,Tu,Th,Fr 10:00-12:00, 15:00-17:00; Sa 10:00-12:00; Apr-May: Mo-Fr
>> 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30; Su 10:00-12:00; Oct: Mo-Fr
>> 10:00-12:30,15:00-18:00; Sa 10:00-12:30;Oct: Su 10:00-12:00
>>
>> This won’t work. I had an idea for doing that but this is not supported yet:
>> https://github.com/opening-hours/opening_hours.js#todo
>>
>> --
>> Live long and prosper
>> Robin `ypid` Schneider -- https://me.ypid.de/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Michał Brzozowski
In reply to this post by SimonPoole

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 8:44 PM Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

It is all fine and dandy for us to abstractly discuss such things, it is
another to explain to Josephine mapper that no, the opening hours of the
shop you want to map are one character too long and you need to map less
detail. I just don't believe that "map less detail" is a concept that
you will be able to convey to a majority of contributors and trying to
do is likely futile.  The trend is simply the consequence of progressing
from the rough to the detailed.



All the while other map providers (e.g. Google) don't bother to have something more than static hours that are  identical every week.


Michał

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Allroads
I am not sure why you opened
to discuss new tagging idea.

If you want to discuss new tagging ideas then post it on a tagging mailing list
or on OSM wiki discussion page.

13. Oct 2018 00:20 by [hidden email]:

https://github.com/opening-hours/opening_hours.js/issues/270
Thinking loud, I like a set of subcategories.
Basic set for a year, others for the fast change.
I find this a practical understandable solution.
From: OSMDoudou Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 5:22 PM To: 'Tag discussion, strategy and related tools' Subject: Re: [Tagging] Opening hours too long for OSM
As to improving (thinking out loud here...), ......

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Re: Opening hours too long for OSM

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Warin
I prefer to not use OSM tags for retaliating against anything.

12. Oct 2018 12:21 by [hidden email]:

If they are going to make it complex ... retaliate and make it simple?

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