Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

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Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

john whelan-2
Fewer applications are using JAVA and it looks as if Oracle is withdrawing from JAVA.  It was originally developed by SUN who were taken over by Oracle.

Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses to expire.

It does have a number of security problems but iD doesn't do have the tricks that JOSM does.

Could it be rewritten in a different language?  How would the plugins be handled?

We have some time to look at alternatives but it might be better not to leave it to the last few days.

Thoughts?

Thanks John

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Re: Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

Mateusz Konieczny-2
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
> out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
> to expire.

Source?

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Re: Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

john whelan-2
It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term Support means no new versions per three years. 

" Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as game developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date commercial customers must have a licence to continue to receive the updates.

Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC, will continue until the end of 2020.

As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support) model for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the current Java 8 was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the end of a three year LTS cycle. "

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
> out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
> to expire.

Source?


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Re: Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

Michael Kugelmann
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
Am 22.04.2018 um 20:26 schrieb john whelan:
We have some time to look at alternatives but it might be better not to leave it to the last few days.
I suggest that you have a look into the josm-dev mailing list...

e.g. look at this discussion:  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/josm-dev/2018-March/007992.html


BR,
Michael.


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Re: Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

Jan Martinec
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a version upgrade. So far, I have used JOSM on Java 6, Java 7, Java 8 and Java 9 - this only means that ancient installations of JOSM will only work with an older version of JOSM. (It's still possible to run JOSM build 10526 on Java 7. Source: having done just that, yesterday).

No action required w/r/t JOSM, relax.
Cheers,
Jan "Piskvor" Martinec 

Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 21:05 uživatel john whelan <[hidden email]> napsal:
It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term Support means no new versions per three years. 

" Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as game developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date commercial customers must have a licence to continue to receive the updates.

Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC, will continue until the end of 2020.

As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support) model for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the current Java 8 was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the end of a three year LTS cycle. "

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
> out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
> to expire.

Source?

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Re: Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

john whelan-2
JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent a number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.  A number of sales people's statements about their licensing were dubious and inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.

Having said that if we look at the requirements then we'd like the ability to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes it can be run but Apple don't especially like you running it.

We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These days many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is too much of a security risk to be allowed to install it.

We have a lot of existing code and programmers who know JAVA.  We have a lot of existing JOSM users which means lots of tutorials and documentation.  Any changes to the interface will be expensive in people time.

Pure JAVA is interpreted, the translation for lay people is it needs a more powerful computer to do the same work in the same time.

I have no instant solutions but I do think sometimes we should try to think things through in advance.  Perhaps the biggest concern is a major security hole opens up and Oracle will not repair it.  JAVA is not known to be highly secure at the best of times.  If this happens what is the impact?

It can be controlled to some extent in Windows by running in a separate user account but that too complicated for many of our users to configure.  Do we have any responsibility to our mappers to keep their machines safe?

Dunno which is why its worth raising the matter.

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 15:34, Jan Martinec <[hidden email]> wrote:
End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a version upgrade. So far, I have used JOSM on Java 6, Java 7, Java 8 and Java 9 - this only means that ancient installations of JOSM will only work with an older version of JOSM. (It's still possible to run JOSM build 10526 on Java 7. Source: having done just that, yesterday).

No action required w/r/t JOSM, relax.
Cheers,
Jan "Piskvor" Martinec 

Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 21:05 uživatel john whelan <[hidden email]> napsal:
It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term Support means no new versions per three years. 

" Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as game developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date commercial customers must have a licence to continue to receive the updates.

Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC, will continue until the end of 2020.

As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support) model for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the current Java 8 was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the end of a three year LTS cycle. "

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
> out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
> to expire.

Source?

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Re: Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

john whelan-2
I think Fredrick's comments have merit.  We know a lot about what works so writing code to rewrite it if need be would not be too great an effort.

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 16:06, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent a number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.  A number of sales people's statements about their licensing were dubious and inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.

Having said that if we look at the requirements then we'd like the ability to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes it can be run but Apple don't especially like you running it.

We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These days many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is too much of a security risk to be allowed to install it.

We have a lot of existing code and programmers who know JAVA.  We have a lot of existing JOSM users which means lots of tutorials and documentation.  Any changes to the interface will be expensive in people time.

Pure JAVA is interpreted, the translation for lay people is it needs a more powerful computer to do the same work in the same time.

I have no instant solutions but I do think sometimes we should try to think things through in advance.  Perhaps the biggest concern is a major security hole opens up and Oracle will not repair it.  JAVA is not known to be highly secure at the best of times.  If this happens what is the impact?

It can be controlled to some extent in Windows by running in a separate user account but that too complicated for many of our users to configure.  Do we have any responsibility to our mappers to keep their machines safe?

Dunno which is why its worth raising the matter.

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 15:34, Jan Martinec <[hidden email]> wrote:
End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a version upgrade. So far, I have used JOSM on Java 6, Java 7, Java 8 and Java 9 - this only means that ancient installations of JOSM will only work with an older version of JOSM. (It's still possible to run JOSM build 10526 on Java 7. Source: having done just that, yesterday).

No action required w/r/t JOSM, relax.
Cheers,
Jan "Piskvor" Martinec 

Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 21:05 uživatel john whelan <[hidden email]> napsal:
It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term Support means no new versions per three years. 

" Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as game developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date commercial customers must have a licence to continue to receive the updates.

Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC, will continue until the end of 2020.

As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support) model for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the current Java 8 was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the end of a three year LTS cycle. "

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
> out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
> to expire.

Source?

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Re: Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Jan Martinec


sent from a phone

> On 22. Apr 2018, at 21:34, Jan Martinec <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a version upgrade.


+1, also jdk10 is already out and jdk11 expected in September this year, so by 2020 java8 will be quite old.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

Paweł Paprota
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
You are mixing so many different topics and misconceptions that I think you basically don't know what you're talking about.

Perhaps you should read up on what is Java first...


etc.

Paweł


On Sun, Apr 22, 2018, at 22:06, john whelan wrote:
JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent a number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.  A number of sales people's statements about their licensing were dubious and inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.
Having said that if we look at the requirements then we'd like the ability to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes it can be run but Apple don't especially like you running it.

We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These days many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is too much of a security risk to be allowed to install it.
We have a lot of existing code and programmers who know JAVA.  We have a lot of existing JOSM users which means lots of tutorials and documentation.  Any changes to the interface will be expensive in people time.
Pure JAVA is interpreted, the translation for lay people is it needs a more powerful computer to do the same work in the same time.
I have no instant solutions but I do think sometimes we should try to think things through in advance.  Perhaps the biggest concern is a major security hole opens up and Oracle will not repair it.  JAVA is not known to be highly secure at the best of times.  If this happens what is the impact?
It can be controlled to some extent in Windows by running in a separate user account but that too complicated for many of our users to configure.  Do we have any responsibility to our mappers to keep their machines safe?
Dunno which is why its worth raising the matter.

Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 15:34, Jan Martinec <[hidden email]> wrote:
End of Java _8_, not all Java. Java 9 is already out, this is just a version upgrade. So far, I have used JOSM on Java 6, Java 7, Java 8 and Java 9 - this only means that ancient installations of JOSM will only work with an older version of JOSM. (It's still possible to run JOSM build 10526 on Java 7. Source: having done just that, yesterday).

No action required w/r/t JOSM, relax.
Cheers,
Jan "Piskvor" Martinec 

Dne ne 22. 4. 2018 21:05 uživatel john whelan <[hidden email]> napsal:
It needs to be translated into English.  For example Long Term Support means no new versions per three years. 

" Basically, free Java 8 updates for commercial customers, such as game developers, will cease in January 2019. After that date commercial customers must have a licence to continue to receive the updates.

Free Java 8 updates for non-commercial uses, such as your home PC, will continue until the end of 2020.

As of last September Oracle have moved to a LTS (Long Term Support) model for Java with new LTS versions released every 3 years - the current Java 8 was released Sept 2017 so December 2020 will be the end of a three year LTS cycle. "
Cheerio John

On 22 April 2018 at 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:26:13 -0400
john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Someone who worked at Oracle has mentioned Oracle would like to be
> out of JAVA by 2020 and that is the date for individual free licenses
> to expire.

Source?

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Re: Oracle is changing Java's license how will it affect JOSM?

Greg Morgan
In reply to this post by john whelan-2


On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 1:06 PM, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
JAVA started as a SUN product.  It is now an Oracle product.  I spent a number of years working with Oracle on license for their databases.  A number of sales people's statements about their licensing were dubious and inconsistent so I'll admit I am slightly bias.

Having said that if we look at the requirements then we'd like the ability to run on UNIX and Windows.  Apple are their own world and yes it can be run but Apple don't especially like you running it.

We'd like to be able to run the software on corporate machines.  These days many companies follow the US government's lead and say JAVA is too much of a security risk to be allowed to install it.

 
Dude I went looking for these so called security issues. I found nothing.  Java is just another language.  I think that you are mixing up Java, JavaScript, or Active X in the browser with Java as a whole. [1]    The only thing that I could find is that you would have to switch to ADA.  You cannot trust, Ruby, Java, or your beloved dot net to manage a rocket guidance system.  The last time I heard something like this was when Steve Ballmer was at Microsoft.  It is fitting that he retired from Microsoft and bought a basket ball team.  Apparently, Steve Ballmer feels comfortable in a court room setting.  ;-)

Regards,
Greg



9.3.16.12 Mobile Code (SC-18) The agency must: a. Define acceptable and unacceptable mobile code and mobile code technologies c. Establish usage restrictions and implementation guidance for acceptable mobile code and mobile code technologies d. Authorize, monitor, and control the use of mobile code within the information system Mobile code technologies include, for example, Java, JavaScript, ActiveX, Postscript, PDF, Shockwave movies, Flash animations, and VBScript, which are common installations on most end user workstations. Usage restrictions and implementation guidance apply to both the selection and use of mobile code installed on servers and mobile code downloaded and executed on individual workstations and devices (e.g., tablet computers and smartphones).


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