Parallel major roads to cycleways

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Parallel major roads to cycleways

Gerd Petermann
Hi,

I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps:
In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row.
Example: A way with bicycle=designated :
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929 
runs next to highway=primary B213
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949

I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you --
so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close.

A possible way would be this:
Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a
hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides).
Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could
decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists.
I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here.

Questions:
1) Do you think this would good to have?
2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style?

Gerd


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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

AlaskaDave
There is a fledgling effort underway here in Chiang Mai to do a similar thing. This effort centers around the desirability of a route for bicycling. It deals with scenic vs dangerous roads for cycling and the 3 point system it uses might be insufficient for your needs but it might be adapted. Worth a look at any rate.


Dave

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Gerd Petermann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps:
In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row.
Example: A way with bicycle=designated :
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929
runs next to highway=primary B213
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949

I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you --
so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close.

A possible way would be this:
Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a
hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides).
Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could
decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists.
I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here.

Questions:
1) Do you think this would good to have?
2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style?

Gerd


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Dave Swarthout
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

ligfietser

Interesting idea Gerd but those roads are also arterial connections to get in or out of the city so for commuting cyclists essential.

A benefit to have such hook is that I can copy the name of the major highway to the parallel cycleway if it lacks a name. This is for address search essential, since the major highway is often not routable in my maps.


Another benefit could be that I can force the router to route on those parallel and often obligatory cycleways and give a high penalty (lesser road_speed or road_class)  for the major highway sections. In OSM those highways often lacks a tag bicycle=no or bicycle=use_sidepath where in reality the parallel cycleways are obligatory.




Van: mkgmap-dev <[hidden email]> namens Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]>
Verzonden: donderdag 16 maart 2017 03:40:10
Aan: Development list for mkgmap
Onderwerp: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways
 
There is a fledgling effort underway here in Chiang Mai to do a similar thing. This effort centers around the desirability of a route for bicycling. It deals with scenic vs dangerous roads for cycling and the 3 point system it uses might be insufficient for your needs but it might be adapted. Worth a look at any rate.


Dave

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Gerd Petermann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps:
In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row.
Example: A way with bicycle=designated :
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929
runs next to highway=primary B213
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949

I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you --
so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close.

A possible way would be this:
Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a
hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides).
Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could
decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists.
I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here.

Questions:
1) Do you think this would good to have?
2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style?

Gerd


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Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

Gerd Petermann
Hi lig fietser,

yes, I forgot to point out the possible improvements for address search.
Reg. commuting cyclists: I worked in Munich and for some years I commuted ~10 km between east and west. At that time I did not have a Garmin but I always prefered
ways apart from major roads.
What problem do you see here?

Gerd


Gerd
________________________________________
Von: mkgmap-dev <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von lig fietser <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. März 2017 09:20:11
An: Development list for mkgmap; [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways

Interesting idea Gerd but those roads are also arterial connections to get in or out of the city so for commuting cyclists essential.

A benefit to have such hook is that I can copy the name of the major highway to the parallel cycleway if it lacks a name. This is for address search essential, since the major highway is often not routable in my maps.


Another benefit could be that I can force the router to route on those parallel and often obligatory cycleways and give a high penalty (lesser road_speed or road_class)  for the major highway sections. In OSM those highways often lacks a tag bicycle=no or bicycle=use_sidepath where in reality the parallel cycleways are obligatory.



________________________________
Van: mkgmap-dev <[hidden email]> namens Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]>
Verzonden: donderdag 16 maart 2017 03:40:10
Aan: Development list for mkgmap
Onderwerp: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways

There is a fledgling effort underway here in Chiang Mai to do a similar thing. This effort centers around the desirability of a route for bicycling. It deals with scenic vs dangerous roads for cycling and the 3 point system it uses might be insufficient for your needs but it might be adapted. Worth a look at any rate.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Thailand#Bicycling_tagging_.28currently_for_Chiang_Mai_only.29

Dave

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Gerd Petermann <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
Hi,

I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps:
In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row.
Example: A way with bicycle=designated :
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929
runs next to highway=primary B213
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949

I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you --
so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close.

A possible way would be this:
Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a
hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides).
Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could
decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists.
I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here.

Questions:
1) Do you think this would good to have?
2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style?

Gerd


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[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
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--
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

ligfietser

Sorry, no objections there, it's of course up to the map maker if he/she decides to give a dislike grade to those roads or not.

Unfortunaltely Garmin does not have a "scenic" option, only an option to prefer curvy roads in the devices dedicated to motorcyclists. As you know, in my maps I have to misuse toll avoidance to force the route to take cycling routes.


Gerd wrote:
yes, I forgot to point out the possible improvements for address search.
Reg. commuting cyclists: I worked in Munich and for some years I commuted ~10 km between east and west. At that time I did not have a Garmin but I always prefered
ways apart from major roads.
What problem do you see here?

Gerd


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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

Gerd Petermann
BTW: Arndt asked in his german post how to use the "narrow trails avoidance" in activity routing.
I've never tried that. I always assumed that the Garmin assumes that roads with a low road_class are narrow trails.
I don't know any special flag to mark a road as a narrow trail. Maybe this is was added in the NT format?

Gerd
________________________________________
Von: mkgmap-dev <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von lig fietser <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. März 2017 10:01:33
An: Development list for mkgmap
Betreff: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways

Sorry, no objections there, it's of course up to the map maker if he/she decides to give a dislike grade to those roads or not.

Unfortunaltely Garmin does not have a "scenic" option, only an option to prefer curvy roads in the devices dedicated to motorcyclists. As you know, in my maps I have to misuse toll avoidance to force the route to take cycling routes.


Gerd wrote:
yes, I forgot to point out the possible improvements for address search.
Reg. commuting cyclists: I worked in Munich and for some years I commuted ~10 km between east and west. At that time I did not have a Garmin but I always prefered
ways apart from major roads.
What problem do you see here?

Gerd

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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

ligfietser

Yes I think it is in the NT format, I have never seen any mkgmap tag that could trigger those narrow trails.



Van: mkgmap-dev <[hidden email]> namens Gerd Petermann <[hidden email]>
Verzonden: vrijdag 17 maart 2017 02:14:38
Aan: Development list for mkgmap
Onderwerp: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways
 
BTW: Arndt asked in his german post how to use the "narrow trails avoidance" in activity routing.
I've never tried that. I always assumed that the Garmin assumes that roads with a low road_class are narrow trails.
I don't know any special flag to mark a road as a narrow trail. Maybe this is was added in the NT format?

Gerd
________________________________________
Von: mkgmap-dev <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von lig fietser <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. März 2017 10:01:33
An: Development list for mkgmap
Betreff: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways

Sorry, no objections there, it's of course up to the map maker if he/she decides to give a dislike grade to those roads or not.

Unfortunaltely Garmin does not have a "scenic" option, only an option to prefer curvy roads in the devices dedicated to motorcyclists. As you know, in my maps I have to misuse toll avoidance to force the route to take cycling routes.


Gerd wrote:
yes, I forgot to point out the possible improvements for address search.
Reg. commuting cyclists: I worked in Munich and for some years I commuted ~10 km between east and west. At that time I did not have a Garmin but I always prefered
ways apart from major roads.
What problem do you see here?

Gerd

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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

Jakob Mühldorfer-2
In reply to this post by Gerd Petermann

Hopefully this does not dampen your enthusiasm. I like the idea, but I think that this is a lot of effort with little application
The first reason is that Garmin devices are just terrible at bike routing, every single cyclist I know just use it for navigating a GPX that came from a online routing service like cycle.travel or BRouter, or routes from other people.
The second reason is that even the bikers who route on the device might like these ways. Separated cycle ways along major roads are not dangerous, just loud, and often paved and in very good condition.

So would it be nice to have the option? Yes
Would many people really use it? I doubt it.


Am 16.03.2017 um 11:06 schrieb Gerd Petermann:
Hi,

I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps:
In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row.
Example: A way with bicycle=designated :
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929 
runs next to highway=primary B213
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949

I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you --
so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close.

A possible way would be this:
Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a 
hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides).
Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could
decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists. 
I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here.

Questions:
1) Do you think this would good to have?
2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style? 

Gerd


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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

Gerd Petermann
Hi Jakob,

I am also one of those who create their GPX files with other (online) programs, but I've still not found one which
I can configure so that my route preferences are met, so I hope that I can improve the routing
in Basecamp/Mapsource. I use the routing on device only
for small distances, e.g. when I am searching for a supermarket, restaurant etc. while I follow a GPX track.

Gerd

________________________________________
Von: mkgmap-dev <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von Jakob Mühldorfer <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. März 2017 13:49:13
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways

Hopefully this does not dampen your enthusiasm. I like the idea, but I think that this is a lot of effort with little application
The first reason is that Garmin devices are just terrible at bike routing, every single cyclist I know just use it for navigating a GPX that came from a online routing service like cycle.travel or BRouter, or routes from other people.
The second reason is that even the bikers who route on the device might like these ways. Separated cycle ways along major roads are not dangerous, just loud, and often paved and in very good condition.

So would it be nice to have the option? Yes
Would many people really use it? I doubt it.

Am 16.03.2017 um 11:06 schrieb Gerd Petermann:

Hi,

I just want to share an idea which might be interesting for cycling maps:
In Germany and probably also Austria) many major roads have a parallel cycleway close to it, often only separated by a patch of grass or natural=tree_row.
Example: A way with bicycle=designated :
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/243499929
runs next to highway=primary B213
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/328470949

I think nearly no cyclist likes to use those ways -- they are just a bit safer but still lots of cars are running with 100 km/h next to you --
so I think it would be good to have a way to separate them from other ways where no major road is close.

A possible way would be this:
Simiar to the new ResidentialHook which sets the mkgmap:residential tag we might implement a
hook which collects major roads and calculates an area around it (maybe 20m on both sides).
Each way (maybe only those with highway=* ) could be checked against those areas in a way that a rule could
decide to "dislike" a way which is mostly within such an area when the map is for cyclists.
I guess bridges and tunnels (or more generally the layer tag) needs special handling here.

Questions:
1) Do you think this would good to have?
2) If yes, what kind of information would be needed in the style?

Gerd


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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

Philip Homburg-4
> I am also one of those who create their GPX files with other (online)
> programs, but I've still not found one which I can configure so
> that my route preferences are met, so I hope that I can improve
> the routing in Basecamp/Mapsource. I use the routing on device only
> for small distances, e.g. when I am searching for a supermarket,
> restaurant etc. while I follow a GPX track.

I use routing a lot for cycling.

Most of the time I do use a custom style. But that's mostly to keep out
really stupid things like steps or highways.

In Amsterdam, I add tags to make things really right, i.e. to make sure that
you always end up on the cycle path and not on the main road even when the
cycle path is crazy.

But for example in Brussels, it just works and I never did any mapping there.


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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

David-54
In reply to this post by Gerd Petermann
Features rules from Openstreetmap.org says :

"Cycling infrastructure that is an inherent part of a road - particularly "cycle lanes" which are a part of the road - should usually not be tagged as a separate cycleway, but by adding the cycleway=* tag to an existing highway=*instead."

The problem, if there is one, seems to be on the mappers side, not mkgmap styles rules.
It should be easy to discard any cycleway along a road with a condition  test like (cycleway=* & highway!=*). You can refine it with a test on the road category if needed.

Reference :

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Re: Parallel major roads to cycleways

Gerd Petermann
Hi David,

the ways I am talking about are NOT part of the road. In many cases there is a ditch or tree row between the road
and the cycleway, say 3-5 m width. The cycleway may make small turns around trees.
So, I think it is okay to map those ways on their own but I don't know any tag which describes the fact that there
is a major road next to it.

Gerd



________________________________________
Von: mkgmap-dev <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von David <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. März 2017 16:59:15
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Parallel major roads to cycleways

Features rules from Openstreetmap.org<http://Openstreetmap.org> says :

"Cycling infrastructure that is an inherent part of a road - particularly "cycle lanes" which are a part of the road - should usually not be tagged as a separate cycleway, but by adding the cycleway<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway>=* tag to an existing highway<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway>=*instead."

The problem, if there is one, seems to be on the mappers side, not mkgmap styles rules.
It should be easy to discard any cycleway along a road with a condition  test like (cycleway=* & highway!=*). You can refine it with a test on the road category if needed.

Reference :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway

David
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