Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

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Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

yo paseopor
Moment has arrived.
I need the use of the tagging scheme into a separated items (not only the highway itself) to make possible the draw of specific parking areas (or spaces if it is specified) in the streets with their properties exactly drawn as areas or ways.
I assume also the position about the use of some relation called associatedStreet to "join" the different items we talk last days: the road itself,the parking area (if it is) the cycleway it is associated, the kerb, the sidewalk, the traffic signs...and so on.

What do you think?
yopaseopor

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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 02:56, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:
Moment has arrived.
I need the use of the tagging scheme into a separated items (not only the highway itself) to make possible the draw of specific parking areas (or spaces if it is specified) in the streets with their properties exactly drawn as areas or ways.

What's wrong with amenity=parking, or am I misunderstanding your question? 

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

OSMDoudou
In reply to this post by yo paseopor
Parking spaces, you mean ?


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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

yo paseopor
Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street, not a parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need to separate and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited every place) in each street.
Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as an area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled parking spaces.

All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the street: kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor


On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:17 AM OSMDoudou <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Paul Allen
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:06, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street, not a parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need to separate and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited every place) in each street.
Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as an area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled parking spaces.


--
Paul


All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the street: kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor


On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:17 AM OSMDoudou <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

yo paseopor

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 6:26 PM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:06, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street, not a parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need to separate and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited every place) in each street.
Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as an area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled parking spaces.


--
Paul


All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the street: kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor


On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:17 AM OSMDoudou <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Jmapb
In reply to this post by yo paseopor
On 3/6/2019 12:04 PM, yo paseopor wrote:

> Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street,
> not a parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need
> to separate and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited
> every place) in each street.
> Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as
> an area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled
> parking spaces.
>
> All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the
> street: kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...

Some definitely do consider street parking to be a "lane", see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane for elaborate
tagging examples.

With all the talk about drawing road kerbs as ways, I imagine a proposal
to encode street parking info as properties of the kerb (rather than of
the street) will be forthcoming.

J


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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

yo paseopor
Sorry...but parking space is not a lane, lanes are for driving. You cannot drive by a "parking lane". Lane has differents meanings. You can see the difference in Spanish: Carril para circular, Zona de aparcamiento. It does not exist Carril de aparcamiento.
Also adding parkign properties to the kerbs...does not help anything (it would be the same problem we have now. I need these items separated from the way, from the kerb, with its own id, to draw exactly what space is occuping.

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor


On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:01 PM Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3/6/2019 12:04 PM, yo paseopor wrote:
> Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street,
> not a parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need
> to separate and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited
> every place) in each street.
> Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as
> an area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled
> parking spaces.
>
> All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the
> street: kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...

Some definitely do consider street parking to be a "lane", see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane for elaborate
tagging examples.

With all the talk about drawing road kerbs as ways, I imagine a proposal
to encode street parking info as properties of the kerb (rather than of
the street) will be forthcoming.

J


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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by yo paseopor
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:49, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Which look, in the editor, exactly like the examples I gave links to.  So what's wrong with the
solution I used?  I can't remember where I got the idea from, but I probably found it somewhere
in the wiki or suggested in one of the forums.  It handles the situation well.  It's a parking area
which has one side contiguous with the road.  Big advantages: it renders and it shows a P
symbol.  What more do you want?

--
Paul


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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

yo paseopor
I think it is not correct. Parking zones in a street are not amenity=parking , are they? It would be very interesting solution...but parking zone in a street is not a parking (an specific place for park). Parking spaces would fit correctly, but as you can see not all the parkings zones have drawn all the parking spaces.
I wish to use standard parking:lane properties...but not with amenity=parking tag...or is it a correct use?

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:15 PM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:49, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Which look, in the editor, exactly like the examples I gave links to.  So what's wrong with the
solution I used?  I can't remember where I got the idea from, but I probably found it somewhere
in the wiki or suggested in one of the forums.  It handles the situation well.  It's a parking area
which has one side contiguous with the road.  Big advantages: it renders and it shows a P
symbol.  What more do you want?

--
Paul

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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Paul Allen
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 18:23, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think it is not correct. Parking zones in a street are not amenity=parking , are they?

Why not?  They have conditions of use.  This one https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/103703582
even has a ticket machine and you get fined if you park there without purchasing a ticket.  It's
close to the shops, which is why people park there.
 
If it were a street where you can park in the lanes (assuming you meet certain conditions) that's
a different matter.  But what you had was clearly an area set aside for parking.  It bulges out
from the highway.  It had parking spaces marked.  It's clearly intended for people to park there.
It walks and quacks like amenity=parking as far as I can see.

The alternative, which I do not think applies in your case, is a highway rest area:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/608454983  That is uncontrolled.  There are no parking
spaces marked.

Those are the alternatives we have right now.  Are you sure yours is so different that we need
something else?

--
Paul


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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by yo paseopor
It is probably similar to "should we map sidewalks as a separate highway=footway"
but why not?

See for example tagging in Poland:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.23091&mlon=20.95912#map=19/52.23091/20.95912

There are some reasonable objections (and arguments in support), but

"parking zone in a street is not a parking (an specific place for park)"

seems weird to me. Parking along street is a specific place for parking, in fact
it basically cannot be used for anything except as a place to park vehicles.

Mar 6, 2019, 7:21 PM by [hidden email]:
I think it is not correct. Parking zones in a street are not amenity=parking , are they? It would be very interesting solution...but parking zone in a street is not a parking (an specific place for park). Parking spaces would fit correctly, but as you can see not all the parkings zones have drawn all the parking spaces.
I wish to use standard parking:lane properties...but not with amenity=parking tag...or is it a correct use?



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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
What is the reason for not tagging it as an area?

This seems to mix drawbacks of tagging as area and as a tag on road:
- geometry is not mapped
- it is complicated to match it to a road
- not handled by most of data consumers
- highly unusual tagging

Mar 6, 2019, 7:14 PM by [hidden email]:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:49, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Which look, in the editor, exactly like the examples I gave links to.  So what's wrong with the
solution I used?  I can't remember where I got the idea from, but I probably found it somewhere
in the wiki or suggested in one of the forums.  It handles the situation well.  It's a parking area
which has one side contiguous with the road.  Big advantages: it renders and it shows a P
symbol.  What more do you want?

--
Paul



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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

yo paseopor
Ok , ok, if it is fine I will tag parking zones at the streets with amenity parking and the properties of parking lanes

Thank you for your attention
yopaseopor

PD: When I have said "parking lane is not a parking" I mean a parking lot, a big parking zone not in the middle of a street. Sorry for my bad English ;)

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:52 PM Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
What is the reason for not tagging it as an area?

This seems to mix drawbacks of tagging as area and as a tag on road:
- geometry is not mapped
- it is complicated to match it to a road
- not handled by most of data consumers
- highly unusual tagging

Mar 6, 2019, 7:14 PM by [hidden email]:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:49, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Which look, in the editor, exactly like the examples I gave links to.  So what's wrong with the
solution I used?  I can't remember where I got the idea from, but I probably found it somewhere
in the wiki or suggested in one of the forums.  It handles the situation well.  It's a parking area
which has one side contiguous with the road.  Big advantages: it renders and it shows a P
symbol.  What more do you want?

--
Paul


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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Jmapb
In reply to this post by yo paseopor
On 3/6/2019 1:12 PM, yo paseopor wrote:

> Sorry...but parking space is not a lane, lanes are for driving. You
> cannot drive by a "parking lane". Lane has differents meanings. You
> can see the difference in Spanish: Carril para circular, Zona de
> aparcamiento. It does not exist Carril de aparcamiento.
> Also adding parkign properties to the kerbs...does not help anything
> (it would be the same problem we have now. I need these items
> separated from the way, from the kerb, with its own id, to draw
> exactly what space is occuping.

You can't drive in a parking lane, but you can park in a parking lane.
It's a common term in English, and since OSM tagging is English-based it
doesn't make much sense to argue based on Spanish usage.

... I don't really see what our "problem" is that isn't solvable with
street (or theoretically kerb) tagging. If the problem is that it
doesn't show up visually on the default map, then I'd say that's a case
of "tagging for the renderer".

On the other hand, if drawing amenity=parking areas alongside the street
is what you want to do, certainly I've seen situations (such as the ones
Paul linked to) where that seems to work well.

Jason


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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 05:29, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:

On the other hand, if drawing amenity=parking areas alongside the street
is what you want to do, certainly I've seen situations (such as the ones
Paul linked to) where that seems to work well.

I'd also agree that amenity=parking on the road works.

The question I have is whether the parking area should be mapped out to the middle of the road, as the examples shown, or should it be an area at the side of, or off, the road? eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/546470035

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Jmapb

On 3/6/2019 8:39 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 05:29, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:

On the other hand, if drawing amenity=parking areas alongside the street
is what you want to do, certainly I've seen situations (such as the ones
Paul linked to) where that seems to work well.

I'd also agree that amenity=parking on the road works.

The question I have is whether the parking area should be mapped out to the middle of the road, as the examples shown, or should it be an area at the side of, or off, the road? eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/546470035

Yo passepor wants to "draw exactly what space is occuping" so in that case putting the area to the side of the road probably makes more sense, even though it would prevent a routing engine from actually being able to arrive inside the parking amenity.

Personally I wouldn't be inclined to directly connect a side of the parking area to the highway way unless they really were completely indistinguishable.

J


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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Thanks Jason

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 12:18, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yo passepor wants to "draw exactly what space is occuping" so in that case putting the area to the side of the road probably makes more sense,

Just thinking about it, you'd only map strips of marked individual parking bays, wouldn't you? eg you'd map these 
but not unmarked parking lanes like these

even though it would prevent a routing engine from actually being able to arrive inside the parking amenity.

I wouldn't think that should be a problem, would it? Wouldn't a router only work to take you to "that" particular individual space?  

Personally I wouldn't be inclined to directly connect a side of the parking area to the highway way unless they really were completely indistinguishable.

Yep, that's what I thought.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Jmapb
On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 02:18, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yo passepor wants to "draw exactly what space is occuping" so in that case putting the area to the side of the road probably makes more sense, even though it would prevent a routing engine from actually being able to arrive inside the parking amenity.

Going from memory (I've deleted his mail with the link), those parking areas were contiguous with
the road.  On one of them, the cars parked perpendicular to the road and access was along the
whole length of the parking bay.  It is, I believe, correct to connect them.  Not just for routeing but
because it represents reality on the ground.

Personally I wouldn't be inclined to directly connect a side of the parking area to the highway way unless they really were completely indistinguishable.

Here's a (very small, delivery-only) parking space I mapped as connected to the way:
https://goo.gl/maps/oaXMUYZTLn72 (relax, I didn't use Google Maps to map it, it's literally
a two-minute walk from where I live).   I mapped it as
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/525946296  I consider that to be indistinguishable
from the way, and from my memory of the aerial imagery for Yo passepor's parking spaces, I believe
they were similar.

I'd only separate the parking spaces from the way if there were some physical barrier along the
common border.  But in that situation I'd map map a driveway at each end and possibly a
parking aisle along it.  Something more like this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/525370232
(except that's wider than either of Yo passepor's examples, being wide enough for two rows of
parking spaces).  The barrier in that case is a raised kerb, so you could drive over it if you really
wanted to, but it's easier to use the entrances.

--
Paul


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Re: Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


sent from a phone

On 6. Mar 2019, at 19:48, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

Parking along street is a specific place for parking, in fact
it basically cannot be used for anything except as a place to park vehicles.


at least as long as there are cars parked ;-)


Cheers, Martin 

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