Power=cable for low voltage lines?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
37 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Joseph Eisenberg
The team at Openstreetmap-carto (the "standard" map style) recently added rendering for power=cable which are specifically tagged as being overground or overhead (on the ground or on poles).

Most power=cable are high-voltage underground or underwater power cables, but some are insulated cables above-ground.

Now it's can be seen that in some places, eg France, power=cable has been used for minor distribution lines (220 volt?) bringing power to individual buildings.


Perhaps these should be tagged as power=minor_line, but the wiki says these are uninsulated, hence the confusion. And the wiki says "Use power=cable for any voltage"!

Should the wiki page for power=minor_line be changed to mention the possibility that these lines may be insulated in some places? Should the power=cable page state that this is only intended for higher-voltage lines?

-Joseph

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

François Lacombe-2
Hi Jospeh,

What a time to discuss about minor_line!

Basically in power language, a line is not insulated while a cable actually is.
I won't be in favor to slightly adapt minor_line to include some cables (even tiny).

More generally, the concern to show on carto render only what is relevant or significant regards the voltage here.
An important voltage makes things really bigger while a low one allow to reduce sizes, including the space between conductors.
This what is exactly implied in minor_line, and what is cluttering power key values too.

To solve the problem, carto can filter power=cable on voltage=*, because we shouldn't introduce power=minor_cable.

All the best

François

Le dim. 14 oct. 2018 à 12:48, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
The team at Openstreetmap-carto (the "standard" map style) recently added rendering for power=cable which are specifically tagged as being overground or overhead (on the ground or on poles).

Most power=cable are high-voltage underground or underwater power cables, but some are insulated cables above-ground.

Now it's can be seen that in some places, eg France, power=cable has been used for minor distribution lines (220 volt?) bringing power to individual buildings.


Perhaps these should be tagged as power=minor_line, but the wiki says these are uninsulated, hence the confusion. And the wiki says "Use power=cable for any voltage"!

Should the wiki page for power=minor_line be changed to mention the possibility that these lines may be insulated in some places? Should the power=cable page state that this is only intended for higher-voltage lines?

-Joseph
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Joseph Eisenberg
What about the 2 insulated wires that attach my house to the nearest power pole? Are they a power=cable (overhead)?

If we use the same tag for huge 10 cm wide cables and tiny 1cm cables, it makes it hard for map renderers to show power cables at all without leading to problems.

Joseph

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:19 PM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Jospeh,

What a time to discuss about minor_line!

Basically in power language, a line is not insulated while a cable actually is.
I won't be in favor to slightly adapt minor_line to include some cables (even tiny).

More generally, the concern to show on carto render only what is relevant or significant regards the voltage here.
An important voltage makes things really bigger while a low one allow to reduce sizes, including the space between conductors.
This what is exactly implied in minor_line, and what is cluttering power key values too.

To solve the problem, carto can filter power=cable on voltage=*, because we shouldn't introduce power=minor_cable.

All the best

François

Le dim. 14 oct. 2018 à 12:48, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
The team at Openstreetmap-carto (the "standard" map style) recently added rendering for power=cable which are specifically tagged as being overground or overhead (on the ground or on poles).

Most power=cable are high-voltage underground or underwater power cables, but some are insulated cables above-ground.

Now it's can be seen that in some places, eg France, power=cable has been used for minor distribution lines (220 volt?) bringing power to individual buildings.


Perhaps these should be tagged as power=minor_line, but the wiki says these are uninsulated, hence the confusion. And the wiki says "Use power=cable for any voltage"!

Should the wiki page for power=minor_line be changed to mention the possibility that these lines may be insulated in some places? Should the power=cable page state that this is only intended for higher-voltage lines?

-Joseph
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

François Lacombe-2
Hi Joseph,

Yes, according to you, it's a power cable.

We don't use the same tags: the first got voltage=200000000000 while the second got voltage=220

All the best

François Lacombe

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux


Le lun. 15 oct. 2018 à 00:05, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
What about the 2 insulated wires that attach my house to the nearest power pole? Are they a power=cable (overhead)?

If we use the same tag for huge 10 cm wide cables and tiny 1cm cables, it makes it hard for map renderers to show power cables at all without leading to problems.

Joseph

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:19 PM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Jospeh,

What a time to discuss about minor_line!

Basically in power language, a line is not insulated while a cable actually is.
I won't be in favor to slightly adapt minor_line to include some cables (even tiny).

More generally, the concern to show on carto render only what is relevant or significant regards the voltage here.
An important voltage makes things really bigger while a low one allow to reduce sizes, including the space between conductors.
This what is exactly implied in minor_line, and what is cluttering power key values too.

To solve the problem, carto can filter power=cable on voltage=*, because we shouldn't introduce power=minor_cable.

All the best

François

Le dim. 14 oct. 2018 à 12:48, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
The team at Openstreetmap-carto (the "standard" map style) recently added rendering for power=cable which are specifically tagged as being overground or overhead (on the ground or on poles).

Most power=cable are high-voltage underground or underwater power cables, but some are insulated cables above-ground.

Now it's can be seen that in some places, eg France, power=cable has been used for minor distribution lines (220 volt?) bringing power to individual buildings.


Perhaps these should be tagged as power=minor_line, but the wiki says these are uninsulated, hence the confusion. And the wiki says "Use power=cable for any voltage"!

Should the wiki page for power=minor_line be changed to mention the possibility that these lines may be insulated in some places? Should the power=cable page state that this is only intended for higher-voltage lines?

-Joseph
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Joseph Eisenberg
Is there any limit to what can be mapped power=cable? Can micromappers use this tag for wires connecting their house to a garage? Or a wire from their garage to a string of light bulbs hanging across the back yard?

Should there be a different tag for power wires at the consumer level?

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:20 PM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Joseph,

Yes, according to you, it's a power cable.

We don't use the same tags: the first got voltage=200000000000 while the second got voltage=220

All the best

François Lacombe

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux


Le lun. 15 oct. 2018 à 00:05, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
What about the 2 insulated wires that attach my house to the nearest power pole? Are they a power=cable (overhead)?

If we use the same tag for huge 10 cm wide cables and tiny 1cm cables, it makes it hard for map renderers to show power cables at all without leading to problems.

Joseph

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:19 PM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Jospeh,

What a time to discuss about minor_line!

Basically in power language, a line is not insulated while a cable actually is.
I won't be in favor to slightly adapt minor_line to include some cables (even tiny).

More generally, the concern to show on carto render only what is relevant or significant regards the voltage here.
An important voltage makes things really bigger while a low one allow to reduce sizes, including the space between conductors.
This what is exactly implied in minor_line, and what is cluttering power key values too.

To solve the problem, carto can filter power=cable on voltage=*, because we shouldn't introduce power=minor_cable.

All the best

François

Le dim. 14 oct. 2018 à 12:48, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
The team at Openstreetmap-carto (the "standard" map style) recently added rendering for power=cable which are specifically tagged as being overground or overhead (on the ground or on poles).

Most power=cable are high-voltage underground or underwater power cables, but some are insulated cables above-ground.

Now it's can be seen that in some places, eg France, power=cable has been used for minor distribution lines (220 volt?) bringing power to individual buildings.


Perhaps these should be tagged as power=minor_line, but the wiki says these are uninsulated, hence the confusion. And the wiki says "Use power=cable for any voltage"!

Should the wiki page for power=minor_line be changed to mention the possibility that these lines may be insulated in some places? Should the power=cable page state that this is only intended for higher-voltage lines?

-Joseph
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Jean-Marc Liotier
On Mon, October 15, 2018 2:28 pm, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Is there any limit to what can be mapped power=cable ?
> Can micromappers use this tag for wires connecting their
> house to a garage ?

voltage=* is a clear importance filter that offers a simple practical
solution to fears of excessive detail - anything less than 1000 Volts is
low voltage and rendering shall relegate it to accordingly low scales.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Joseph Eisenberg
 0% of power=cable have a voltage tag: 


It seems that most mappers do not put a voltage on small power lines. I suspect this may be true for small overhead power cables too

Would you recommend renderering lines and cables of unknown voltage as low voltage, eg only render on zoom level 18 or 19 (neighborhood or Bock level), with a thin line?

Joseph


On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:27 PM Jean-Marc Liotier <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, October 15, 2018 2:28 pm, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Is there any limit to what can be mapped power=cable ?
> Can micromappers use this tag for wires connecting their
> house to a garage ?

voltage=* is a clear importance filter that offers a simple practical
solution to fears of excessive detail - anything less than 1000 Volts is
low voltage and rendering shall relegate it to accordingly low scales.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Joseph Eisenberg
Sorry, that should be “80% of power=cable...”

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 11:11 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
 0% of power=cable have a voltage tag: 


It seems that most mappers do not put a voltage on small power lines. I suspect this may be true for small overhead power cables too

Would you recommend renderering lines and cables of unknown voltage as low voltage, eg only render on zoom level 18 or 19 (neighborhood or Bock level), with a thin line?

Joseph


On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:27 PM Jean-Marc Liotier <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, October 15, 2018 2:28 pm, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Is there any limit to what can be mapped power=cable ?
> Can micromappers use this tag for wires connecting their
> house to a garage ?

voltage=* is a clear importance filter that offers a simple practical
solution to fears of excessive detail - anything less than 1000 Volts is
low voltage and rendering shall relegate it to accordingly low scales.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

François Lacombe-2
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Le lun. 15 oct. 2018 à 16:13, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Would you recommend renderering lines and cables of unknown voltage as low voltage, eg only render on zoom level 18 or 19 (neighborhood or Bock level), with a thin line?

Yes, this would solve the cluttering problem and encourage users to put voltage if they wish to see their very own cable on lower zooms.
This can be completed with Osmose check and JSOM validation rules (warning for missing voltage).

In micro-mapping, yes power=cable can be used to link your house to garage until the wires are actually insulated.

All the best

François

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

dieterdreist
I would also expect cables to render very late by default (i.e. not voltage tagged), similar to minor lines or even later, if we are basically going to distinguish a cable running from the door bell to the push button from a high voltage transmission cable only by adding the voltage.

Cheers,
Martin


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Greg Troxel-2
In reply to this post by François Lacombe-2
François Lacombe <[hidden email]> writes:

> Basically in power language, a line is not insulated while a cable actually
> is.

A difficulty here is that mappers cannot tell a protective covering from
insulation.  I was at an open house of my power company recently and
they had a mockup of a distribution line, of 8 kV phase to ground (as
part of 13.8 kV 3-phase), connected to a transformer, and then 120/240
from the transformer to the meter - all very normal in the US.

However, I was told that the protective covering on the 8 kV line is NOT
insulation, even though it looks much like it.  It's there for abrasion
resistance to slow corrosion, and perhaps for added mechanical strength,
but it does not meet insulation specs.

So I don't see how we can make "insulated" a big deal in tagging,
defining the top-level tag, rather than being a detail to add when
known.

That said, I fully support your notion of tagging voltage, so that
low-voltage lines can be rendered only at extreme zooms, and to assume a
line is low voltage (240V seems like a reasonable default assumption in
terms of controlling rendering) if not tagged.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

marc marc
Le 16. 10. 18 à 00:20, Greg Troxel a écrit :
> François Lacombe <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Basically in power language, a line is not insulated
>> while a cable actually is.
>
> So I don't see how we can make "insulated" a big deal in tagging,
> defining the top-level tag, rather than being a detail to add when
> known.

if the schema was build from scratch,
indeed s subtag insulated=<no/yes> should be better
When I see a line/cable a little far away, I'm unable to tell if it's
insulated or no... I just guest it with the guested low/hight voltage :s
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

François Lacombe-2
In reply to this post by Greg Troxel-2
Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 00:20, Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> a écrit :
So I don't see how we can make "insulated" a big deal in tagging,
defining the top-level tag, rather than being a detail to add when
known.

I agree with both of you Greg and Marc
Nevertheless, this was a debate in 2013 and I was in favor to merge line, cable and minor_line

Due to power=cable and power=line usage in OSM, many contributors didn't want to mass retag power=cable.
Then we all agreed on line/cable distinction in late 2014 or 2015.

Note that insulation is also a draft proposal

I'm still opposed to minor_line since in merge several different concept in one value, and is only useful for rendering.

That said, I fully support your notion of tagging voltage, so that
low-voltage lines can be rendered only at extreme zooms, and to assume a
line is low voltage (240V seems like a reasonable default assumption in
terms of controlling rendering) if not tagged.

Great, should we open an issue on carto github to propose to lower the rendering of cables without voltage?

All the best

François

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Warin
On 16/10/18 18:47, François Lacombe wrote:
Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 00:20, Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> a écrit :
So I don't see how we can make "insulated" a big deal in tagging,
defining the top-level tag, rather than being a detail to add when
known.

For me a single 'line' is one conductor, where as a cable will be more than one conductor.
Usually the difference can be seen at the ends - where a cable is split into the separate conductors.
High voltage things tend to be lines, cheaper I guess.


I agree with both of you Greg and Marc
Nevertheless, this was a debate in 2013 and I was in favor to merge line, cable and minor_line

Due to power=cable and power=line usage in OSM, many contributors didn't want to mass retag power=cable.
Then we all agreed on line/cable distinction in late 2014 or 2015.

Note that insulation is also a draft proposal

I'm still opposed to minor_line since in merge several different concept in one value, and is only useful for rendering.

That said, I fully support your notion of tagging voltage, so that
low-voltage lines can be rendered only at extreme zooms, and to assume a
line is low voltage (240V seems like a reasonable default assumption in
terms of controlling rendering) if not tagged.

Great, should we open an issue on carto github to propose to lower the rendering of cables without voltage?

Make a default value of 240 v for lines that have no voltage tag?
That would work and motivate some to add the voltage tag.


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by François Lacombe-2
16. Oct 2018 09:47 by [hidden email]:

I'm still opposed to minor_line since in merge several different concept in one value, and is only useful for rendering


power=line/power=minor_line is useful for both mappers and data users not

interested in the extreme detail of power networks and care about them only as

orientation points or are mapping from aerial images.


As usual, there people mapping in greater detail but both


"map it in general, without any special knowledge or interest in detail" and

and "map some detail" and "map it extreme detail" should be possible.


power=line/power=minor_line is useful for the first use case.



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

marc marc
Le 17. 10. 18 à 10:50, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
> 16. Oct 2018 09:47 by [hidden email]
>     I'm still opposed to minor_line since in merge several different
>     concept in one value, and is only useful for rendering
>
> power=line/power=minor_line is useful for both mappers and data users not
> interested in the extreme detail

if you don't care about extreme detail one power=line is better :)
you see a line, tag a line in stead of guessing if it's a minor or not.

if build from scratch, the schema should have minor<>major in a subtag
that's better for ppl not interested any detail without any impact for
ppl interested with "medium" (minor<>major) and high details (voltage)
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
17. Oct 2018 11:30 by [hidden email]:

Le 17. 10. 18 à 10:50, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
16. Oct 2018 09:47 by [hidden email]
I'm still opposed to minor_line since in merge several different
concept in one value, and is only useful for rendering

power=line/power=minor_line is useful for both mappers and data users not
interested in the extreme detail

if you don't care about extreme detail one power=line is better :)
you see a line, tag a line in stead of guessing if it's a minor or not.


In my case I am interested in differentiating major power lines and minor power lines

without further details.


Given power=liner and power=minor_line scheme existed before I joined OSM and

is really popular I guess that I am not alone.


There are certainly (as with everything else) things that may be reasonably tagged as

both line and minor_line but nearly always it is blatantly obvious and no deliberations are

required.


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 17. Oct 2018, at 11:39, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

Given power=liner and power=minor_line scheme existed before I joined OSM and

is really popular I guess that I am not alone



+1, if you don’t agree with the distinction you can simply treat line and minor_line the same and pretend they were all mapped as line. For many data consumers a basic distinction in bigger and smaller is sufficient, and the interest of most mappers likely doesn’t extend beyond this. It will also be faster for the experts to add voltage if the lines are already mapped.

There are ~800.000 line + minor line 67% of the lines have a voltage attached but only 30% of the minor lines. 


Cheers, Martin 


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

François Lacombe-2
Le jeu. 18 oct. 2018 à 09:49, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> a écrit :

+1, if you don’t agree with the distinction you can simply treat line and minor_line the same and pretend they were all mapped as line.

Which is a workaround and not a sustainable approach.
The same was said for power=station, it has almost disapeared now since we established more consistent tagging.

If you want to address all "basic distinctions" by merging concepts in one signel key, then many other values will clutter power and other key here, that's tempting but a poor idea in a long term view.

All the best

François

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Power=cable for low voltage lines?

Greg Troxel-2
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> writes:

> In my case I am interested in differentiating major power lines and
> minor power lines without further details.
>
> Given power=liner and power=minor_line scheme existed before I joined
> OSM and is really popular I guess that I am not alone.

I find the wiki sort of unclear, and I'm also not sure that other
countries' power systems are the same as the US.

Is it fair to say

  power=line is for transmission (among generating stations and
  substations, including to dedicated substations for industrial
  customers that would be called "transmission-connected" in the US)

  power=minor_line is for distribtion (from substations to customers)

I find 45 kV as a limit odd; in my part of the US (and I think the rest)
distribution is normally at 13.8 kV, and if I encountered 45 kV I would
expect it to be very old transmission, not distribution.  Modern
transmission here is 115 kV (plus higher, which I'm ignoring), and
there's a fair bit of 69 kV around.

So if we think of minor_line as encoding distribution vs transmission,
then it makes sense.  But the idea that people that don't understand the
power system can tell the difference doesn't really seem right to me.

so questions:

  - Does this transmission/distribution dichotomy exist in substantially
    all of the world?

  - Are there really distribution voltages much higher than 13.8 kV in
    use?

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
12