Property extents

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Property extents

Rob Nickerson
Hi all,

You may recall that the geospatial commission & ordnance survey have announced that they will be releasing "property extents". By chance I found myself in a meeting room with both organisations so I asked what "property extents" means. It is the land area (e.g. garden boundary of a detached house) rather than the building outline. They deem the building outline to have too high a commercial value under their current funding mechanism.

I also found out that the commission received over 200 responses (202 I think) hence the delay. They will be providing a summary of the responses.

Best regards,
Rob

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Re: Property extents

David Woolley
On 09/01/2019 09:36, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> It is the land area (e.g. garden boundary of a detached house) rather
> than the building outline. They deem the building outline to have too
> high a commercial value under their current funding mechanism.

Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building outlines as
it is much more difficult to accurately recover from aerial imagery and
ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

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Re: Property extents

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy




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Re: Property extents

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy





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Re: Property extents

Tom Hughes-3
DO NOT USE THIS.

You need to read the license properly, and especially the linked
document with "third party conditions" from OS that has all sorts
of unacceptable restrictions:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inspire-index-polygons-spatial-data#conditions-of-use
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/about/governance/policies/inspire-index-polygons-licensing-terms.html

I imagine the upcoming hopefully properly free data will basically
be the same though.

Tom

On 09/01/2019 11:06, Andy Robinson wrote:

> As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry index polygons?
> https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons
>
> Data is in GML format.
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Robinson [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
> To: 'David Woolley'; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents
>
> On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>> Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>> outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>> aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.
>
> Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>


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Re: Property extents

sk53.osm
In reply to this post by Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
Hi Andy,

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER had any semblance of being open data.

The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which now can only be used if you are an estate agent.

Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

Jerry

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy





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Re: Property extents

Chris Hill-6

Here's one of Jerry's blog posts about the not-so-open Land Registry data:

https://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/not-very-inspired-land-registry-open.html

and my post about testing using them:

https://chris-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/land-registry-inspire-polygons.html

As Tom says, these datasets are not Open Data and we cannot use them as a data source in OSM. I feel that the Open Government Licence should not be used in this case as it isn't  Open.


On 09/01/2019 11:47, SK53 wrote:
Hi Andy,

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER had any semblance of being open data.

The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which now can only be used if you are an estate agent.

Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

Jerry

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy





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Chris Hill (chillly)

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Re: Property extents

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2

Tom, Jerry, Chris thanks for the very helpful prompts.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Chris Hill [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 09 January 2019 12:37
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

 

Here's one of Jerry's blog posts about the not-so-open Land Registry data:

https://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/not-very-inspired-land-registry-open.html

and my post about testing using them:

https://chris-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/land-registry-inspire-polygons.html

As Tom says, these datasets are not Open Data and we cannot use them as a data source in OSM. I feel that the Open Government Licence should not be used in this case as it isn't  Open.

 

On 09/01/2019 11:47, SK53 wrote:

Hi Andy,

 

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER had any semblance of being open data.

 

The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which now can only be used if you are an estate agent.

 

Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

 

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

 

Jerry

 

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy





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-- 
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

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Re: Property extents

Warin

Even if it were open .. does OSM want it?

I don't see any specific tags for it?

And you do want to have them accurate and up to date.

---------------------------

Example of inaccurate property extent problems .. from Australia - https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/news/coroner-hits-out-at-police-use-of-google-maps-printouts-in-search-for-missing-man/news-story/0d005d8018e694433313ab2b941c7df4

A recent coroner hit out at the decision to rely on Google Maps printouts in the manhunt — noting that Queensland Police Service (QPS) had better tools available to them to search the area.

In fact, the inquest detailed how officers on the case were later given a much more informative aerial map of the area from the local council, at no cost to police whatsoever.

“It is quite apparent the quality of the images of the property on this map is far superior to the Google map images used in the search of the property and one wonders if the same mistake in conducting a search of only half the property would have been made if this map had been obtained,” Deputy State Coroner John Lock said in his report.

---------------

There are lots of potential problems from mapping private property extents. Don't think I would want to go there.


On 09/01/19 23:40, Andy Robinson wrote:

Tom, Jerry, Chris thanks for the very helpful prompts.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Chris Hill [[hidden email]]
Sent: 09 January 2019 12:37
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

 

Here's one of Jerry's blog posts about the not-so-open Land Registry data:

https://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/not-very-inspired-land-registry-open.html

and my post about testing using them:

https://chris-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/land-registry-inspire-polygons.html

As Tom says, these datasets are not Open Data and we cannot use them as a data source in OSM. I feel that the Open Government Licence should not be used in this case as it isn't  Open.

 

On 09/01/2019 11:47, SK53 wrote:

Hi Andy,

 

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER had any semblance of being open data.

 

The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which now can only be used if you are an estate agent.

 

Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

 

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

 

Jerry

 

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy





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Re: Property extents

Gareth L
I’d maybe see the benefit for this data in more accurate/consistent landuse=residential areas? The whole “do you include the road, or create the area up to the road” decision.
Gareth


On 10 Jan 2019, at 00:19, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Even if it were open .. does OSM want it?

I don't see any specific tags for it?

And you do want to have them accurate and up to date.

---------------------------

Example of inaccurate property extent problems .. from Australia - https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/news/coroner-hits-out-at-police-use-of-google-maps-printouts-in-search-for-missing-man/news-story/0d005d8018e694433313ab2b941c7df4

A recent coroner hit out at the decision to rely on Google Maps printouts in the manhunt — noting that Queensland Police Service (QPS) had better tools available to them to search the area.

In fact, the inquest detailed how officers on the case were later given a much more informative aerial map of the area from the local council, at no cost to police whatsoever.

“It is quite apparent the quality of the images of the property on this map is far superior to the Google map images used in the search of the property and one wonders if the same mistake in conducting a search of only half the property would have been made if this map had been obtained,” Deputy State Coroner John Lock said in his report.

---------------

There are lots of potential problems from mapping private property extents. Don't think I would want to go there.


On 09/01/19 23:40, Andy Robinson wrote:

Tom, Jerry, Chris thanks for the very helpful prompts.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Chris Hill [[hidden email]]
Sent: 09 January 2019 12:37
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Property extents

 

Here's one of Jerry's blog posts about the not-so-open Land Registry data:

https://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/not-very-inspired-land-registry-open.html

and my post about testing using them:

https://chris-osm.blogspot.com/2013/10/land-registry-inspire-polygons.html

As Tom says, these datasets are not Open Data and we cannot use them as a data source in OSM. I feel that the Open Government Licence should not be used in this case as it isn't  Open.

 

On 09/01/2019 11:47, SK53 wrote:

Hi Andy,

 

Both Chris Hill & I blogged about them at the time, but they NEVER had any semblance of being open data.

 

The same proved to be true of the Land Registry Prices Paid which now can only be used if you are an estate agent.

 

Owen has covered both on his Map Gubbins blog.

 

Have to dash, so no time to find the links.

 

Jerry

 

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 11:07, Andy Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

As a follow-up, has anyone looked at the OGL licenced INSPIRE Land Registry index polygons?
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/download-inspire-index-polygons

Data is in GML format.

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Robinson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 09 January 2019 10:56
To: 'David Woolley'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Talk-GB] Property extents

On Wed 09/01/2019 10:35 David Woolley wrote:
>Actually, that seems more valuable to OSM than the building
>outlines as it is much more difficult to accurately recover from
>aerial imagery and ground surveys can normally only see front yards.

Agreed, though I wonder whether this will have any correlation with Land Registry. I'm guessing .gov isn’t that joined up.

Cheers
Andy




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Re: Property extents

Dan S
In reply to this post by Warin
Op do 10 jan. 2019 om 00:19 schreef Warin <[hidden email]>:
>
> Even if it were open .. does OSM want it?

Is it equivalent to the "cadastral" data that's been used in France and Spain?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cadastre
Their experience could be informative, about what the data can help with

> I don't see any specific tags for it?

 Make tags if you need them...

Dan

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Re: Property extents

sk53.osm
I think in both France & Spain the cadastral information has been used largely for mapping buildings and not land-parcels.

In places I know the French cadastral parcel data is difficult to interpret: overlapping parcels; individual buildings as multiple parcels; parcel boundaries not according to the location of the little yellow boundary markers on the ground etc. I presume some of these are artefacts of how the cadastre is maintained by each commune and subsequent digitisation. In some cases cadastral parcels do not seem to be consolidated, so it's impossible to actually derive real property boundaries without some on-the-ground knowledge.

I'm pushed to think of lots of things I might do with parcel boundaries: accurate location of urban footpaths is one, nature reserve boundaries another (either directly or because NE data ceases to be encumbered). I don't know how much the parcels will accord with things like field boundaries in rural areas: I'll take a look at the LR Inspire data for S Derbyshire to get an idea.

Jerry

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 09:07, Dan S <[hidden email]> wrote:
Op do 10 jan. 2019 om 00:19 schreef Warin <[hidden email]>:
>
> Even if it were open .. does OSM want it?

Is it equivalent to the "cadastral" data that's been used in France and Spain?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cadastre
Their experience could be informative, about what the data can help with

> I don't see any specific tags for it?

 Make tags if you need them...

Dan

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Re: Property extents

David Woolley
In reply to this post by Warin
On 10/01/2019 00:18, Warin wrote:
> Even if it were open .. does OSM want it?
>
> I don't see any specific tags for it?

landuse=residential combined with addr:*

It is something I would definitely want included if it were possible to
capture the data.  The main reason it is rare at the moment is probably
that it is very difficult to deduce boundary lines from aerial images
without very detailed local knowledge or surveys, of land that is private.
>
> And you do want to have them accurate and up to date.
>

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Re: Property extents

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Warin
Hi,

On 10.01.19 01:18, Warin wrote:
> Even if it were open .. does OSM want it?

Parcel boundaries have generally been undesirable in OSM in the past,
mostly because to a lack of on-the-ground verifiability. The advice has
always been: If there's a fence, map the fence, not the boundary. If
there's no fence, then you don't know there's a boundary.

If someone needs the boundaries they can use them them from the open
data source themselves.

That doesn't mean that people have not imported parcels of course. I
think that in a discussion on talk-us, someone once claimed that it can
be important to know for a rambler if they're on public or private land
because they're more likely to get shot on private land. Hope this is
not so much of a concern in the UK ;)

Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: Property extents

sk53.osm
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 11:39, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

snip

because they're more likely to get shot on private land. Hope this is
not so much of a concern in the UK ;)

Bye
Frederik

 

Jerry 

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Re: Property extents

Jez Nicholson
I have summarised this discussion at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Property_extents_in_the_United_Kingdom

Please feel free to add more facts and references.

Regards,
             Jez

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 12:51 SK53 <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 11:39, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

snip


because they're more likely to get shot on private land. Hope this is
not so much of a concern in the UK ;)

Bye
Frederik

 

Jerry 
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Re: Property extents

Jez Nicholson
I have summarised this discussion at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Property_extents_in_the_United_Kingdom

Please feel free to add more facts and references.

Regards,
             Jez

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 09:03 Jez Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have summarised this discussion at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Property_extents_in_the_United_Kingdom

Please feel free to add more facts and references.

Regards,
             Jez

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 12:51 SK53 <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 11:39, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

snip


because they're more likely to get shot on private land. Hope this is
not so much of a concern in the UK ;)

Bye
Frederik

 

Jerry 
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Re: Property extents

David Woolley
In reply to this post by Jez Nicholson
On 14/01/2019 09:03, Jez Nicholson wrote:
> I have summarised this discussion at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Property_extents_in_the_United_Kingdom
>

"A property owner is legally required to maintain property boundaries
such as fences. This is intended to minimise disputes. So, being able to
manually survey a reasonable property extent is feasible."

That is either not true, or the law has fallen into disrepute.  With the
car parkification of front yards, boundary features in front yards are a
dying species.  That definitely applies to the private/adopted land
boundary, but also commonly applies to neighbouring properties.

Boundaries of properties fronted on roads technically extend to the
middle of the road, at least for residential roads, and I have never see
those marked.

Private/adopted boundaries are often very difficult to see in shopping
areas, such that most people think that environmental crime is the
responsibility of the council when it is actually on the shop forecourt,
and the responsibility of shopowner.  The boundaries between private
forecourts of shops can be even more difficult to see there may be a
change in surface, or a single line of block paving at the adopted land
boundary, but not between shops.

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Re: Property extents

Jez Nicholson
I've added a "citation needed".

AFAIK it may only become apparent when you try to sell your house. It is one of the checks that is made by a conveyancer. It depends how strongly they like to apply the rules. One of those things that could slow down a house purchase.....but you are quite right people either don't know or ignore it....or it is no longer a requirement.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 11:06 David Woolley <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 14/01/2019 09:03, Jez Nicholson wrote:
> I have summarised this discussion at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Property_extents_in_the_United_Kingdom
>

"A property owner is legally required to maintain property boundaries
such as fences. This is intended to minimise disputes. So, being able to
manually survey a reasonable property extent is feasible."

That is either not true, or the law has fallen into disrepute.  With the
car parkification of front yards, boundary features in front yards are a
dying species.  That definitely applies to the private/adopted land
boundary, but also commonly applies to neighbouring properties.

Boundaries of properties fronted on roads technically extend to the
middle of the road, at least for residential roads, and I have never see
those marked.

Private/adopted boundaries are often very difficult to see in shopping
areas, such that most people think that environmental crime is the
responsibility of the council when it is actually on the shop forecourt,
and the responsibility of shopowner.  The boundaries between private
forecourts of shops can be even more difficult to see there may be a
change in surface, or a single line of block paving at the adopted land
boundary, but not between shops.

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Re: Property extents

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
In reply to this post by David Woolley
-----Original Message-----
From: David Woolley [mailto:[hidden email]]

> Boundaries of properties fronted on roads technically extend to the
>middle of the road, at least for residential roads, and I have never see
>those marked.

I've yet to see a Land Registry title plan go to the centreline of the road. I guess it might occasionally for an unadopted highway but typically the boundary between highway and private property is either at the back of the pavement or some distance beyond that (verge) depending on location.

Cheers
Andy


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