Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
75 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Robert Delmenico
Hi,

I'm proposing that we change the man_made tag to human_made.

I feel it is a discussion that we need to have as there seems to be little discussion to date.

This is my first proposal so forgive me if i've missed something out on the proposal page. 


I understand that there are around 4 million tags with man_made on them and it would be a huge task to change them all, but perhaps if this is considered for future tagging.

I also understand that generally speaking the use of man_made is commonly accepted as a gender neutral term, but in reality it has been adapted that way due to past practices of gender bias.

Regardless of the outcome of this proposal, this is a worthy discussion to be had in my mind.


Looking forward to your feedback

Yours, 

Robert Delmenico
rtbk

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Paul Allen
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 01:57, Robert Delmenico <[hidden email]> wrote:

I also understand that generally speaking the use of man_made is commonly accepted as a gender neutral term, but in reality it has been adapted that way due to past practices of gender bias.

You are correct that there was a change of usage.  In Old English "mann"
meant "human" of any gender, with "wer" meaning "adult male."   When
"wer" fell out of use, "mann" was used for both "human" (of any gender)
and "adult male."

So you are wrong to imply that some sort of denial of gender bias retrofitted "man"
as a gender-neutral term.  it always was a gender-neutral term, although it has
latterly taken on an additional meaning.

The references you give in your proposal discuss the problems with
introducing such a change to tagging.  They point out that editors and
applications often hide raw tags from mappers anyway.  They point out
the headaches in changing established tagging without any benefit to
the map itself.

I doubt this change would be even one small step for a human, let
alone one giant leap for humankind.  Don't have a cow, wer.

--
Paul


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Robert Delmenico


sent from a phone

> On 15. Oct 2020, at 02:57, Robert Delmenico <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I also understand that generally speaking the use of man_made is commonly accepted as a gender neutral term, but in reality it has been adapted that way due to past practices of gender bias.


I fear in „human“ there is still a man, even in every woman there‘s a man, as in female there is a male. Overall it looks as if English is not suitable for gender neutral language, everything refers back to men. I propose to use German as the language for tags.
It might look like an impossible endeavor at first glance to retag those millions or billions of objects, but if you dig deeper you will find that many tags are already more German than English, so ultimately it wouldn’t be as much change as it may sound initially.

Cheers Martin


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Robert Delmenico
Good point Martin. Someone else has suggested artificial as another alternative. I'm open to all feedback at this stage and happy if anyone wants to add onto the proposal the pros and cons of that's allowed.

Rob

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, 7:38 pm Martin Koppenhoefer, <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 15. Oct 2020, at 02:57, Robert Delmenico <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I also understand that generally speaking the use of man_made is commonly accepted as a gender neutral term, but in reality it has been adapted that way due to past practices of gender bias.


I fear in „human“ there is still a man, even in every woman there‘s a man, as in female there is a male. Overall it looks as if English is not suitable for gender neutral language, everything refers back to men. I propose to use German as the language for tags.
It might look like an impossible endeavor at first glance to retag those millions or billions of objects, but if you dig deeper you will find that many tags are already more German than English, so ultimately it wouldn’t be as much change as it may sound initially.

Cheers Martin


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 09:38, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

I fear in „human“ there is still a man, even in every woman there‘s a man, as in female there is a male. Overall it looks as if English is not suitable for gender neutral language,
everything refers back to men. I propose to use German as the language for tags.

Hahahaha.  That would resolve "man made."  By replacing "made."
 
It might look like an impossible endeavor at first glance to retag those millions or billions of objects, but if you dig deeper you will find that many tags are already more German than English, so ultimately it wouldn’t be as much change as it may sound initially.

 It only needs a little re-tagging.  Simple.

--
Paul


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

voschix
May I remind my dear mapper friends, that tags are just that: tags. From the database point of view these are just couples of arbitrarily chosen, character strings. OSM uses a convention to make it easier to memorize these strings by using GB-English terms for them, but, I repeat that is just a convention to help our human brain facilities. If you were to replace the string "man_made" at every occurrence in the database and in all programs that use the database with "3rgnJI)oò-" this would make no difference to OSM (provided you use different strings for different keys/values), but it would make a huge differnce to the work of inserting/correcting/consulting data by human beings.
In addition, replacing one string with another string in all occurrences in OSM, apart from creating completely unnecessary new versiones of the objects, is trivial. Changing all products that make use of these data will be an enormous amount of work.
And all this effort achieve what?

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:22, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 09:38, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

I fear in „human“ there is still a man, even in every woman there‘s a man, as in female there is a male. Overall it looks as if English is not suitable for gender neutral language,
everything refers back to men. I propose to use German as the language for tags.

Hahahaha.  That would resolve "man made."  By replacing "made."
 
It might look like an impossible endeavor at first glance to retag those millions or billions of objects, but if you dig deeper you will find that many tags are already more German than English, so ultimately it wouldn’t be as much change as it may sound initially.

 It only needs a little re-tagging.  Simple.

--
Paul

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Andrew Harvey-3


On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 23:44, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
May I remind my dear mapper friends, that tags are just that: tags. From the database point of view these are just couples of arbitrarily chosen, character strings. OSM uses a convention to make it easier to memorize these strings by using GB-English terms for them, but, I repeat that is just a convention to help our human brain facilities. If you were to replace the string "man_made" at every occurrence in the database and in all programs that use the database with "3rgnJI)oò-" this would make no difference to OSM (provided you use different strings for different keys/values), but it would make a huge differnce to the work of inserting/correcting/consulting data by human beings.
In addition, replacing one string with another string in all occurrences in OSM, apart from creating completely unnecessary new versiones of the objects, is trivial. Changing all products that make use of these data will be an enormous amount of work.
And all this effort achieve what?

Exactly. The human readable version of tags is done through things like editor presets and partly via the wiki infoboxes, where they can be localised into different languages and regions. The actual tag names bear zero weight and it's impossible to have them accurate across regions. My favourite one is track vs trail, where for me track is narrow that you can only walk and tail is wide that you can drive on, but for other parts of the world it's the opposite, track you can drive on and trail only walk. That doesn't mean we'll change up highway=track as it's the description on the wiki that matters not the name of the tag key and value. 

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Tagging mailing list



Oct 15, 2020, 14:58 by [hidden email]:


On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 23:44, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
May I remind my dear mapper friends, that tags are just that: tags. From the database point of view these are just couples of arbitrarily chosen, character strings. OSM uses a convention to make it easier to memorize these strings by using GB-English terms for them, but, I repeat that is just a convention to help our human brain facilities. If you were to replace the string "man_made" at every occurrence in the database and in all programs that use the database with "3rgnJI)oò-" this would make no difference to OSM (provided you use different strings for different keys/values), but it would make a huge differnce to the work of inserting/correcting/consulting data by human beings.
In addition, replacing one string with another string in all occurrences in OSM, apart from creating completely unnecessary new versiones of the objects, is trivial. Changing all products that make use of these data will be an enormous amount of work.
And all this effort achieve what?

Exactly. The human readable version of tags is done through things like editor presets and partly via the wiki infoboxes, where they can be localised into different languages and regions. The actual tag names bear zero weight
I would not go so far, large part of edits is interacting with raw tag values and "zero weight" is a
significant overstatement


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

ebel
In reply to this post by voschix
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, at 2:41 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> And all this effort achieve what?

The  liberation of all people from from gender roles 🙂


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Mikko Tamura
Love this proposal!

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:11 PM Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, at 2:41 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> And all this effort achieve what?

The  liberation of all people from from gender roles 🙂


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
--


MIKKO L. TAMURA
Lead Advocate
Map Beks Initiative

Externals Head
Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers

Volunteer Mapper
OpenStreetMap Philippines

Contact Number: +639173290655


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Alan Mackie
In reply to this post by ebel
This proposal requires the retagging of over 3 million objects, breaks every existing rendering, editor and a huge amount of documentation in order to replace a term already generally considered gender neutral and easily found in dictionaries (including bilingual ones) with more awkward phrasing that doesn't even remove the detested string.

Please don't do this.

On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 10:11, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, at 2:41 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> And all this effort achieve what?

The  liberation of all people from from gender roles 🙂


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

ebel
Yeah changing this is a multi-year project, and *definitely* not something one does auomatically.

On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, at 11:42 AM, Alan Mackie wrote:

> This proposal requires the retagging of over 3 million objects, breaks
> every existing rendering, editor and a huge amount of documentation in
> order to replace a term already generally considered gender neutral and
> easily found in dictionaries (including bilingual ones) with more
> awkward phrasing that doesn't even remove the detested string.
>
> Please don't do this.
>
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 10:11, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, at 2:41 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> > > And all this effort achieve what?
> >
> > The  liberation of all people from from gender roles 🙂
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tagging mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 18. Oct 2020, at 12:39, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yeah changing this is a multi-year project,


generations...

Cheers Martin

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

François Lacombe-2
Hi

Le dim. 18 oct. 2020 à 16:25, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> a écrit :


sent from a phone

> On 18. Oct 2020, at 12:39, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yeah changing this is a multi-year project,


generations...

Certainly, with the current tagging control plane.

That would only took ~3 or 4 months with more streamed practices and appropriate communication.
This point reminds us we're not able to change tagging because consumers are using it, whatever the input question was.
Such an argument never was and won't ever be a legit reason for me to oppose to a change.

All the best

François

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by ebel



On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 20:39, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
*definitely* not something one does auomatically.

But would it be so impossible? (Not suggesting that it should actually be done!)

Couldn't a bot be set to simply find all cases of man_made=, regardless of what it is, & change them to human_made=, similar to using Find & Replace in a Word document?

& no, as you can see, I don't understand the technicalities behind it all, so please be gentle with explaining that I'm an idiot! :-)

Thanks

Graeme


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Oliver Simmons
Doing this would make over 3M objects have their date updated to the present, when the last meaningful change may have been over 5 years ago.
It creates the illusion of data being up-to-date when all that was changed was a tag key.


On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, 22:02 Graeme Fitzpatrick, <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 20:39, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
*definitely* not something one does auomatically.

But would it be so impossible? (Not suggesting that it should actually be done!)

Couldn't a bot be set to simply find all cases of man_made=, regardless of what it is, & change them to human_made=, similar to using Find & Replace in a Word document?

& no, as you can see, I don't understand the technicalities behind it all, so please be gentle with explaining that I'm an idiot! :-)

Thanks

Graeme

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
Am So., 18. Okt. 2020 um 23:02 Uhr schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 20:39, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
*definitely* not something one does auomatically.

But would it be so impossible? (Not suggesting that it should actually be done!)

Couldn't a bot be set to simply find all cases of man_made=, regardless of what it is, & change them to human_made=, similar to using Find & Replace in a Word document?


yes, technically it could be done with a bot or also without a bot, directly on the database, in seconds or less.
And once we have done it, we could do it again and again, for all kinds of reasons.

The problem is not the data at the origin, it is the system around the database.

Cheers.
Martin


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick



18 paź 2020, 23:00 od [hidden email]:




On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 20:39, Rory McCann <[hidden email]> wrote:
*definitely* not something one does auomatically.

But would it be so impossible? (Not suggesting that it should actually be done!)

Couldn't a bot be set to simply find all cases of man_made=, regardless of what it is, & change them to human_made=, similar to using Find & Replace in a Word document?

& no, as you can see, I don't understand the technicalities behind it all, so please be gentle with explaining that I'm an idiot! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
And then whoever is using OSM data
also needs to update.

For obvious reasons we would not be
able to run find & replace in various 
code used by other people that is using
OSM data.

And the same applies to brains of people
adding OSM data using tags and
developers using OSM data and so on...

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 10/18/20 23:08, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
> And the same applies to brains of people

It appears to me that the end game in this is precisely that, to change
the brains of people. OSM is just a means to and end in that quest.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proposal to change key:man_made to key:human_made

Graeme Fitzpatrick

Thanks everyone - all makes sense!

Graeme




_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
1234