Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
 
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As there were no further comments to the electricity proposal, I'd like
to try another vote. I've gone into more detail on the tag transition and deprecation and changed the tagging to only be used for public amenities and buildings, which was the main concern. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/electricity Happy new year to everyone! - Lukas _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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I still have 3 major concerns with this proposal. _______________________________________________
1) I share the concerns of Mateusz Konieczny that a tag like " electricity:grid:origin=hydro" is not verifiable, it's just advertising. I don't think this is something we should try to map in OpenStreetMap, because we try to avoid adding tags which are advertising claims which cannot be confirmed to be true or false. 2) More importantly I still disagree with calling solar panels a "generator" and requiring 2 extra tags to map when a remote building in a developing country is powered by a diesel/gas generator. Right now electricity=generator is easy to use and makes sense based on the standard meaning of "generator" in English as a gas/diesel powered generator. After this proposal, to tag this we would have to tag electricity=intermittent + electricity:generator=yes + electricity:generator:input=diesel, I think? 3) It is unclear when we should use electricity=intermittent. When I lived in Sentani, in Indonesia, the power would go out for a couple hours, every other day, at random times, but it was available for at least 20 hours a day. Is that electricity=intermittent or electricity=yes? What if there is only electricity for 3 hours every evening on a regular schedule? Is that electricity=intermittent or electricity=no or electricity=yes? It seems like this proposal is designed for mapping developed countries and has not considered other situations. -- Joseph Eisenberg On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 7:06 AM Lukas Richert <[hidden email]> wrote: > > As there were no further comments to the electricity proposal, I'd like > to try another vote. I've gone into more detail on the tag transition > and deprecation and changed the tagging to only be used for public > amenities and buildings, which was the main concern. > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/electricity > > Happy new year to everyone! > > - Lukas > > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > [hidden email] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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Ah I replied on the wiki, but I'll do so here to with some more
examples. On 01/01/2021 08:34, Joseph Eisenberg
wrote:
The wiki explicitly mentions financial means and guarantees of
origin are financial products and physics obviously dictates that
electrons are not distinguishable particles. However, in OSM we
also map organic farm shops and opening hours advertising among a
host of other features that are indicated by signage. These are
also not verifiable by a mapper and can be changed on a moments
notice. If a sign clearly indicates 'renewable energy' then it
should be possible for it to be tagged. If you personally don't
believe this makes any difference, then simply don't use these
tags to filter, but please do allow others to make that choice. (N.B: This entire project for me started because a group asked me to filter out bicycle charging stations that only used renewable energy. I quickly noticed that while I could find bicycle charging stations, I couldn't filter them by renewable enrgy and they had to resort to calling ahead and asking dozens of people.)
Both the general definition and the OSM definition of a generator
include any devices that convert (primary) energy from one form
into another. This includes diesel engines, but also wind, solar
and coal-powered generators among others. Thus, the defintion here
is consistent with power=generator.
Since there is a likelihood that electricity is not available
when it goes out at random times, electricity=intermittent would
be the right tag. Tagging when electricity is scheduled is
described in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/electricity#Schedule
Some more examples, I can add some to the wiki as well:
Has this alleviated some concerns at least? - Lukas
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Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
sent from a phone > On 1. Jan 2021, at 08:37, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote: > > When I lived in Sentani, in Indonesia, the power would go out for a couple hours, every other day, at random times, but it was available for at least 20 hours a day. Is that electricity=intermittent or electricity=yes? intermittent From the perspective of an industrial country, what about having no electricity for some minutes, 2-3 times a year. Is this intermittent or yes? > > What if there is only electricity for 3 hours every evening on a regular schedule? Is that electricity=intermittent or electricity=no or electricity=yes? intermittent Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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On 2021-01-01 12:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
What objective criteria could be used here? Or are we going to take a poll of the opinions of a few users and go with the majority of the self-selecting participants like we usually do? We could use MTBF/MTTR for example, or availability as a percentage. Of course it would be a guess, but at least the discussions would be about facts (how many outages were there last year? how long did they last?) and not about semantics of words like "intermittent". _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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I would say common sense dictates that not having electricity for some minutes 2-3 times a year does not represent a significant probability that electricity will be unavailable. As mentioned in the paper https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tej.2020.106828,
it seems that there is no clear definition of what constitutes
reliable electricity access. The definition proposed in the linked
paper: an electricity source is reliable if "a maximum threshold
of 12 outages in a typical year for SAIFI and 12 hours of power
outage per year" is not exceeded. This seems reasonable and could
be included to define what "significant" means in this case. Further, it might be interesting to allow tagging of reliability
in a tier system (i.e. intermittent=*?) as described by
https://www.worldbank.org/content/dam/Worldbank/Topics/Energy%20and%20Extract/Beyond_Connections_Energy_Access_Redefined_Exec_ESMAP_2015.pdf
but I wouldn't include this in the current proposal. - Lukas
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Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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sent from a phone On 1. Jan 2021, at 14:19, Lukas Richert <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don’t share this conclusion, having in average an outage per month would be seen quite unreliable in some contexts. Definitely worth getting a power backup / UPS. For example I never spent a thought on power backups in Germany, because it happened at most once every few years, while after moving to Italy I found that almost everybody using a desktop computer had an UPS, and for good reason, several outages (seconds usually) a year made it a good investment also for home use. Now in both countries it is probably safe to say that there is complete (there are of course many remote places with no coverage, like alpin huts etc., complete regarding settlements) and uninterrupted coverage, but regarding reliability, the differences - while neglectible compared to what was discussed here, 3 hours a day without electricity - are still significant. From my point of view, 12 outages a year are not what I’d call reliable. I am aware that other regions of the globe would be very happy with this kind of service. For which context is this tagging thought for? Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
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Hello,
Le 01.01.21 à 14:48, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : > or which context is this tagging thought for? there is always a risk of breakdown, as you said, this even happens from time to time in Germany, even datacentres sometimes have exceptional breakdowns because several failures occur in succession (I remember the breakdown of a famous datacenter in Paris) What I think is important is the usual situation. in some regions, or in some off-grid infrastructures, there is power for a few hours, there are recurring moments with and moments without, that's intermittency. it has nothing to do with counting the number of seconds per year. PS : I wonder if we should drop the RFC to only have round of "voting", there are comments that only come out during voting :) Regards, Marc _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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In reply to this post by dieterdreist
The idea of tagging this is that if someone, e.g a traveller,
shows up to charge something they can reasonably assume if
something is tagged electricity=yes that they will be able to
charge their phone/laptop etc. If something is tagged as
intermittent, then there is a significant chance that usage of
electricity won't be possible. For context, people in the US
experience 1.1 outages/yr and thus most sources there would likely
be classified as reliable, whereas a country like Ghana
experiences 1.5 interruptions per week. I don't intend for this to be used to map if someone should
really consider investing in a UPS - no one should need to hook up
there hospital devices on a whim in a cafe and then need to have a
perfect power supply. Tagging the quality of electricity is
outside of the scope of the proposal and if necessary a separate
one should be drawn up. Also, scheduled power cuts are not included in the intermittent outage count - the schedule should then be tagged as electricity:conditional=* - Lukas On 01/01/2021 14:48, Martin
Koppenhoefer wrote:
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Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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On Fri, 2021-01-01 at 15:18 +0100, Lukas Richert wrote:
> The idea of tagging this is that if someone, e.g a traveller, shows > up to charge something they can reasonably assume if something is > tagged electricity=yes that they will be able to charge their > phone/laptop etc. I have been to some pubs and cafes where every table has mains sockets, some have built in USB sockets, which is a very definite electricity=yes. Knowing that a USB chargeris available is useful as the traveller can carry a simple cable rather than a more bulky main adaptor to charge their phone. However most pubs and cafes simply have a few sockets dotted around, the primary purpose being to plug in a vaccum cleaner. Whilst I have never had a problem with being allowed to charge my phone from such sockets, access is by no means guaranteed. The nearby tables may be occupied for example. Would this still be a yes? or electricity=maybe :) Phil (trigpoint) _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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Electricity is available (so electricity=yes) but the access might be
restricted. That is the purpose of the namespaced electricity:access key. In the case where access is possible with individual permission, electricity:access=private seems most suitable. Thus, travellers know it is possible, but not guaranteed. Also, as someone mentioned this in a vote, the extra namespacing is necessary as tagging the whole pub for instance with access=private would be misleading since only the access to electricity is specified. In the case of a charging station that only sells electricity one could probably leave away the namespace as the meaning is clear. - Luke On 01/01/2021 17:27, Philip Barnes wrote: > On Fri, 2021-01-01 at 15:18 +0100, Lukas Richert wrote: >> The idea of tagging this is that if someone, e.g a traveller, shows >> up to charge something they can reasonably assume if something is >> tagged electricity=yes that they will be able to charge their >> phone/laptop etc. > I have been to some pubs and cafes where every table has mains sockets, > some have built in USB sockets, which is a very definite > electricity=yes. > > Knowing that a USB chargeris available is useful as the traveller can > carry a simple cable rather than a more bulky main adaptor to charge > their phone. > > However most pubs and cafes simply have a few sockets dotted around, > the primary purpose being to plug in a vaccum cleaner. > > Whilst I have never had a problem with being allowed to charge my phone > from such sockets, access is by no means guaranteed. The nearby tables > may be occupied for example. Would this still be a yes? or > electricity=maybe :) > > Phil (trigpoint) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > [hidden email] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
Also, the socket:* key is useful to specify the type and number of
sockets available :) So, for example, socket:schuko=2 and socket:USB=1 if that is what is available in the pub. On 01/01/2021 17:27, Philip Barnes wrote: > On Fri, 2021-01-01 at 15:18 +0100, Lukas Richert wrote: >> The idea of tagging this is that if someone, e.g a traveller, shows >> up to charge something they can reasonably assume if something is >> tagged electricity=yes that they will be able to charge their >> phone/laptop etc. > I have been to some pubs and cafes where every table has mains sockets, > some have built in USB sockets, which is a very definite > electricity=yes. > > Knowing that a USB chargeris available is useful as the traveller can > carry a simple cable rather than a more bulky main adaptor to charge > their phone. > > However most pubs and cafes simply have a few sockets dotted around, > the primary purpose being to plug in a vaccum cleaner. > > Whilst I have never had a problem with being allowed to charge my phone > from such sockets, access is by no means guaranteed. The nearby tables > may be occupied for example. Would this still be a yes? or > electricity=maybe :) > > Phil (trigpoint) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > [hidden email] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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On 2021-01-01 17:38, Lukas Richert wrote:
It would be preferable to refer to IEC types rather than local names like "Schuko" (this would be Type F). Also watch out for universal or multi-standard sockets.
https://www.iec.ch/world-plugs For USB sockets, these days the type, power capacity and fast-charging system (e.g. PD, QC) are also very relevant.
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Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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It seems as of the creators of the socket tag do align it with
the IEC standards. But I agree that some improvements could be
made, especially with tagging the same plug with and without
provided cable. One thing at a time though :) On 01/01/2021 18:15, Colin Smale wrote:
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Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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In reply to this post by Lukas Richert
I'm aware that power=generator is used for solar plants and solar panel installations in openstreetmap, but the common meaning of generator is "a machine used to generate electricity", that is, they convert mechanical energy into electrical energy. Specifically: " Generators work by rotating a coil of wire in a magnetic field, causing a current to flow in the wire. A generator may be a huge spinning turbine powered by water, wind, steam, gas, or nuclear reactions, which sends electricity out through power lines to thousands of customers. But normally when we use the word, we're thinking of a small machine powered by gasoline or diesel, such as you might keep in your basement for those times when a storm knocks out your power, to create electricity right in front of your eyes." - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/generator _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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Hi Joseph, Le ven. 1 janv. 2021 à 23:12, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
We are discussing this point in the power storage thread as well and several point of view exist. IEC says "non-electric energy into electricity" AND IEC says "Mechanical energy into electricity" http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=411-32-01 regarding rotating machinery. Wikipedia EN says "mechanical energy into electricity", without proper source Wikipedia FR says "non-electric energy into electricity", without proper source All the best François _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Fri, Jan 01, 2021 at 02:10:15PM -0800, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> > Specifically: " Generators work by rotating a coil of wire in a magnetic > field, causing a current to flow in the wire. A generator may be a huge > spinning turbine powered by water, wind, steam, gas, or **nuclear reactions **, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I wouldn't trust a source that suggested that a practical (or probably impractical) turbine could be powered directly by nuclear reactions :-) ael _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
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In reply to this post by Lukas Richert
On 2/1/21 5:33 am, Lukas Richert wrote:
Sockets are usually the source of power. Plugs are usually used to withdraw power.
The existence of a cable could be indicated with cable=yes/n
where n is the length in meters (or other units identified as per
other liner units).
Schuko is not a 'local name', but recognized internationally.
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Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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In reply to this post by François Lacombe-2
Hi Joseph, to clarify the aim of the electricity proposal is to
be consistent with the OSM definition of generator. This is also
the reason why any form of electricity:storage tagging isn't a
part of the proposal. If the definition of a generator in OSM
changes, then I'll change it in the proposal as well. Opposing the
OSM definition of the proposal however isn't a good reason to
oppose the electricity proposal - it doesn't help anyone to have
2-3 differing definitions of what a generator is in OSM as this
would lead to increased mistagging. Further, I've proposed a
quantified definition of intermittent and provided more examples
of how to tag scheduled outages. Finally, some more definitions of a generator:
Truly none of these mention diesel-only or even fossil-fuel-only.
I'd also like to link some solar manufacturers that clearly use
the terms "solar generator" to mean photovoltaic systems:
https://www.jackery.com/pages/solar-generator
https://www.goalzero.com/shop/solar-kits/solar-generator-kits/,
there are multiple patents using the term
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7492120B2/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4697042A/en as well as
scientific articles
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/5451184/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0038092X96000060
On 01/01/2021 23:31, François Lacombe
wrote:
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Re: Proposed feature - Voting - electricity
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In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 at 18:37, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I used to have this concern, but was convinced it is best to simply call these all generators. It's impossible to have tag names that match all the nuances and diversity in word meanings across the world, so at some point we have to set some tags in stone and back them up with solid descriptions on the wiki. Editors and other OSM tools solve this by localising tag names into descriptions (like what iD does) and providing wiki documentation next to occurances of each tag to reduce the issue of people coming with their own preconceptions about what a tag means. _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
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