Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

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Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

Mateusz Konieczny-3
Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes

I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of such objects.
I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from all such objects.
In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and unnecessary duplicates.

So in total I propose to remove

atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
service=post_office from amenity=post_office http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa

as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and undesirable.
Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.

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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

Johnparis
For ATMs, at least, I would propose the opposite: add the atm=yes tag to all amenity=atm

From a user perspective, I want to be able to search for atm=yes to obtain all the nearby ATMs. Removing this tag leaves me without standalone ATMs, so I would have to search for atm=yes OR amenity=atm

Thus, I don't think this is duplicated information -- it is additional information. If this were 1965 and we needed to fit everything into 32K of memory, I'd say fine, but I don't see the need or the advantage.

John


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 9:00 AM Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes

I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of such objects.
I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from all such objects.
In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and unnecessary duplicates.

So in total I propose to remove

atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
service=post_office from amenity=post_office http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa

as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and undesirable.
Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.
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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 14. Jun 2019, at 09:27, Johnparis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For ATMs, at least, I would propose the opposite: add the atm=yes tag to all amenity=atm


this doesn‘t seem reasonable, atm=yes is a property to state that the feature provides an atm. With amenity=yes it is already implied.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Johnparis
I think this proposed edit is reasonable, it makes things simpler without loosing any information.

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 17:30, Johnparis <[hidden email]> wrote:
From a user perspective, I want to be able to search for atm=yes to obtain all the nearby ATMs. Removing this tag leaves me without standalone ATMs, so I would have to search for atm=yes OR amenity=atm

Except you'd already need to search for amenity=atm or atm=yes to find those amenity=atm's not tagged with atm=yes. 

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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
Hi,

On 14.06.19 08:57, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> So in total I propose to remove

[...]

Makes sense to me. Please document it on the wiki as per the automated
editing guidlines,

"You should normally document your proposed edit at an English-language
wiki page named "Automated edits/username" (where username is the OSM
user name of the account that you will be using to perform the edits -
think about this now so that you don't have to rename the page later),
and add it to Category:Automated edits log."

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Johnparis

Please no.

Essentially you are saying that all attribute tags that indicate that a specific facility is present should be duplicated on the standalone objects of the same type.

bin=yes on amenity=waste_basket, bench=yes on amenity=bench and so on.

Am 14.06.2019 um 09:27 schrieb Johnparis:
For ATMs, at least, I would propose the opposite: add the atm=yes tag to all amenity=atm

From a user perspective, I want to be able to search for atm=yes to obtain all the nearby ATMs. Removing this tag leaves me without standalone ATMs, so I would have to search for atm=yes OR amenity=atm

Thus, I don't think this is duplicated information -- it is additional information. If this were 1965 and we needed to fit everything into 32K of memory, I'd say fine, but I don't see the need or the advantage.

John


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 9:00 AM Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes

I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of such objects.
I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from all such objects.
In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and unnecessary duplicates.

So in total I propose to remove

atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
service=post_office from amenity=post_office http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa

as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and undesirable.
Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.
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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by Johnparis
It's taken you longer to write your email than it would to write a line of extra code to search for them.

Easier to distinguish between the two:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWq

DaveF

On 14/06/2019 08:27, Johnparis wrote:
For ATMs, at least, I would propose the opposite: add the atm=yes tag to
all amenity=atm

From a user perspective, I want to be able to search for atm=yes to obtain
all the nearby ATMs. Removing this tag leaves me without standalone ATMs,
so I would have to search for atm=yes OR amenity=atm

Thus, I don't think this is duplicated information -- it is additional
information. If this were 1965 and we needed to fit everything into 32K of
memory, I'd say fine, but I don't see the need or the advantage.

John


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 9:00 AM Mateusz Konieczny [hidden email]
wrote:

Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes

I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of such
objects.
I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from all such
objects.
In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and unnecessary
duplicates.

So in total I propose to remove

atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
service=post_office from amenity=post_office
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa

as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and
undesirable.
Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.
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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
On 14/06/2019 07:57, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.

As long as it's clearly commented, I wouldn't loose any sleep over the
physical size of the changeset. OSM should be concerning itself with
quality rather than quantity.

That the main website is antiquated & unable to display details of edits
is not a reason to improve the database efficiently. Performing edits in
one go makes them easier to keep track of & revert, if there's a problem.

DaveF

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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


Am Fr., 14. Juni 2019 um 09:00 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
So in total I propose to remove

atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
service=post_office from amenity=post_office http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa




while it generally looks ok to do this automated removal, there could be some point in

1.
sustenance=restaurant, although I would expect the restaurant-type to be better fitting into a "restaurant" or "restaurant:type" tag.
I have so far been adding local restaurant (and fast food) types with the key "restaurant:type:it", and this has become somehow common amongst Italian mappers (not very common, currently 750 times applied), where common values are ristorante, pizzeria, osteria, trattoria, rosticceria, tavola calda, bar, enoteca, piadineria,...

Looking at the actual sustenance values (total usage around 200 only), these are all duplicating words which are already tagged as amenity values (restaurant, fast_food etc.), I also haven't found specific documentation for this key (and without a defined meaning it seems pointless to establish a duplicate key here).



2. service=post_office
It may not always be entirely clear these days what a post office is, while say 30 years ago the answer to this question was quite simple in many countries: the official, monopolized, state operated "official" post office.
What are the requirements, what is the definition? According to the wiki [1], amenity=post_office is for "a post office" (and/or?) "a place where letters and parcels may be sent or collected". This is very scarce. Is it sufficient the place allows to collect letters and parcels? Is any place where letters and parcels can be sent a "post office" (think messenger services)? Why is there an "or" between "sent or collected", shouldn't that be an "and"?
Commonly (quite country specific though), post offices may offer a lot more services (offering post office boxes, sending / receiving money, selling stamps, paying bills and taxes, identifying people, sending registered mail and telegrams (yeah, these still exist), often post offices also act as a bank, and they may also act as an insurance company, they may sell digital signatures, etc. etc.). Ultimately the list of services would be very long and repetitive if we tried to add all of them, but there could be a point in listing postal services, financial services and banking, insurances.
If the value for "service" is repeating "post office", it doesn't make sense, but the basic idea of having a service tag for post offices does not seem completely odd.


Cheers,
Martin




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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

Jmapb
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list
On 6/14/2019 5:02 AM, Dave F via talk wrote:

> That the main website is antiquated & unable to display details of
> edits is not a reason to improve the database efficiently. Performing
> edits in one go makes them easier to keep track of & revert, if
> there's a problem.
>
> DaveF

IMO, smaller and more gradual mechanical edits are much easier to keep
track of & revert. If there's a problem with a well-thought-out
mechanical edit, it's highly likely to be localized, either a data edge
case or a local mapping community that has different ideas. Smaller
edits allow us take a look at the actual consequences and possibly
suggest changes. And smaller reverts are also easier for the software to
handle.

Jason


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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

General Discussion mailing list


On 14/06/2019 14:10, Jmapb wrote:
>  If there's a problem with a well-thought-out mechanical edit, it's
> highly likely to be localized,

For mechanical/bot/automated edits, errors are more likely to be
duplicated across all amendments.

If 'local mapping communities' have 'different ideas' it should be
queried as to what they are & why they're required.

DaveF



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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist



14 Jun 2019, 14:55 by [hidden email]:
Looking at the actual sustenance values (total usage around 200 only), these are all duplicating words which are already tagged as amenity values (restaurant, fast_food etc.), I also haven't found specific documentation for this key (and without a defined meaning it seems pointless to establish a duplicate key here).
And it appears to be added solely by OsmAnd (I noticed it again during fixing
user_defined_other=* added by buggy/borken OsmAnd editor)
2. service=post_office
If the value for "service" is repeating "post office", it doesn't make sense, but the basic idea of having a service tag for post offices does not seem completely odd.
Yes, only service=post_office will be removed and only from amenity=post_office,
other service tags will be kept unchanged




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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

Jmapb
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list
On 6/14/2019 9:50 AM, Dave F via talk wrote:

> On 14/06/2019 14:10, Jmapb wrote:
>>  If there's a problem with a well-thought-out mechanical edit, it's
>> highly likely to be localized,
>
> For mechanical/bot/automated edits, errors are more likely to be
> duplicated across all amendments.
>
> If 'local mapping communities' have 'different ideas' it should be
> queried as to what they are & why they're required.
>
Sure, when possible, but this is a belt-and-suspenders situation. The
automated edits code of conduct (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct#Execute_with_caution
) is pretty clear about this:

- Execute only a small number of edits wait for feedback before
proceeding with larger edits.
- One changeset covering the whole planet is hard to read. Changes
grouped into small regions are easiest to digest for human mappers.

(paraphrased)

Jason


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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

Mark Wagner
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list
On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 10:02:59 +0100
Dave F via talk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 14/06/2019 07:57, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.  
>
> As long as it's clearly commented, I wouldn't loose any sleep over
> the physical size of the changeset. OSM should be concerning itself
> with quality rather than quantity.
>
> That the main website is antiquated & unable to display details of
> edits is not a reason to improve the database efficiently. Performing
> edits in one go makes them easier to keep track of & revert, if
> there's a problem.

It's not just the main website.  I'm not aware of any QA tool that
makes it easy to review a planet-spanning changeset.

--
Mark

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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

Yves-2
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
It isn't worth it, I'm afraid you're loosing your time.
Given that the two tags aren't the same (amenity=atm is an atm, atm=yes contains an atm) you'll soon have this one art piece that definitely deserves amenity=atm + atm=no. Or not.
If you're not ready to consume OSM data using NOT, AND or OR, don't even start :)
Not to say that OSM should be a joyful mess, but to me such apparent redundancy does no harm. A matter of point of view on the best way to describe the same things, that's all.
Yves

Le 14 juin 2019 08:57:22 GMT+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Recently in mapping I encountered amenity=atm with atm=yes

I manually removed atm=yes, but it turns that there is more of such objects.
I propose to run an automatic edit that will remove atm=yes from all such objects.
In addition I propose to remove also some other blatant and unnecessary duplicates.

So in total I propose to remove

atm=yes from amenity=atm http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JW8
transportation=fuel from amenity=fuel http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWe
sustenance=restaurant from amenity=restaurant http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWh
sustenance=fast_food from amenity=fast_food http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWc
service=post_office from amenity=post_office http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/JWa

as this duplicated tags are unnecessary, unwanted, confusing and undesirable.
Edits would be split to not create overly large bounding boxes.

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Re: Proposed mechanical edit - remove blatant duplicates (sustenance=fast_food on amenity=fast_food, atm=yes on amenity=atm etc.)

General Discussion mailing list
On 14/06/2019 20:12, Yves wrote:
> Given that the two tags aren't the same (amenity=atm is an atm, atm=yes contains an atm)

That's why Mateusz proposed this edit.

> If you're not ready to consume OSM data using NOT, AND or OR, don't even start :)

As the two tags are mutually exclusive, it shouldn't require operator
filtering.

DaveF

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