Proximity

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
13 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Proximity

john whelan-2
I drifted down to a government conference on open data and software today and whilst there a question came up concerning proximity to a hospital.

Just a planner wondering where to put it to maximise the ease of access for as many people as possible.

You can route plan for walking and driving a car but what can you do for public transport.

Essentially it is how many buildings are within 1 km for pedestrians, 3 km for cyclists, 7 km for a car.  I've chosen arbitrary numbers but public transit is quite different.  If you live within a 5 minute walk of a bus stop on a route that goes past the hospital then its easy to get to but how do you find these locations using OpenStreetMap data?

Many cities have had their bus stops imported.  If you are in one of these what else is needed to work it out?

The information is worth money.  The right location makes a business or amenity more valuable.

What do we have? 

Is this the right forum to raise the problem?

Thanks John

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

Warin
On 29/09/18 07:21, john whelan wrote:

> I drifted down to a government conference on open data and software
> today and whilst there a question came up concerning proximity to a
> hospital.
>
> Just a planner wondering where to put it to maximise the ease of
> access for as many people as possible.
>
> You can route plan for walking and driving a car but what can you do
> for public transport.
>
> Essentially it is how many buildings are within 1 km for pedestrians,
> 3 km for cyclists, 7 km for a car.  I've chosen arbitrary numbers but
> public transit is quite different.  If you live within a 5 minute walk
> of a bus stop on a route that goes past the hospital then its easy to
> get to but how do you find these locations using OpenStreetMap data?
>
> Many cities have had their bus stops imported. If you are in one of
> these what else is needed to work it out?
>
> The information is worth money.  The right location makes a business
> or amenity more valuable.

Here proximity to to a train station is worth more money than proximity
to a bus stop.
Within 1 km of a train station is where developers and purchases of
apartments want them and they will pay more for that proximity.
>
> What do we have?

Train stations are usually well represented in OSM data.
Bus stops are not so well represented, this will depend on the local
mappers so it is area dependant.
>
> Is this the right forum to raise the problem?
>
> Thanks John


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
Hi,

On 28.09.2018 23:21, john whelan wrote:
> Many cities have had their bus stops imported. 

And even more cities have their bus stops mapped in the traditional
fashion, like, riding a bus and recording where it stops. It's amazing
how much you can do with one day pass :)

> what else is needed to work it out?

Many standard routing tools (Graphhopper, OSRM, Valhalla) can do
"isochrones", that is essentially what you are looking for for one
single bus stop. You would simply run that for every bus stop and join
the results together.

Since you don't need instant results and you don't want to run this for
a whole country, the algorithm to use is really simple - build a routing
graph, annotate each bus stop node with a travel time of "0", and travel
outwards along all reachable nodes, increasing your travel time by the
time it takes to walk the edge you are using, until you reach a node
that already has a smaller time annotation than you have accumulated.

There's a simple Perl implementation in
svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/distance_maps that could be
used as a basis if Perl is your thing but you could use pg_routing just
as well.

Having said that:

1. In the concrete example of a hospital, I would expect the local bus
operator to create a new bus stop or even change a bus route to
accommodate the hospital. Of course this would not work if you wanted to
set up a bakery.

2. The existence of a bus stop in OSM does not mean it is actually
served by a route; and the existence of a route in OSM that serves the
bus stop does not necessarily say what frequency - it could be the
school bus that only goes three times a day, or the night bus, or the
bus extension to the pool that only goes in summer.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Warin
>Here proximity to to a train station is worth more money than proximity to a bus stop.Within 1 km of a train station is where developers and purchases of apartments want them and they will pay more for that proximity.

Train stations are usually well represented in OSM data.Bus stops are not so well represented, this will depend on the local mappers so it is area dependant.

Perhaps I didn't state the problem clearly enough.

If I have two possible sites for a health centre which will be more easily accessible?

Assume the bus and tram stops are mapped and the route relationship is in place.  Assume the same is true if it is rail.  If the proposed sites for the health centre are not on the railway line then the rail is probably irrelevant.

One method might be to plot a path from each building to the health centre by walking, car and bicycle then see how many can reach it within x minutes.  That is a lot of routing calculation to do but it can be done overnight or even over a couple of days.  You would then have to go through each travel plan and count the ones less than 10 minutes or 45 minutes or whatever time you decide is the cut off point.

Google I think has travel times for public transport available on its maps under directions.  I think for some cities we have the same information available, the GTFS file and locations but can we do travel times for public transport and how would you do it?.

At the moment I don't think there is a good solution but someone might have some ideas on how to do it.

Thanks John

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

Imre Samu
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
> If you live within a 5 minute walk of a bus stop on a route that goes past the hospital then its easy to get to but how do you find these locations using OpenStreetMap data?
>Many cities have had their bus stops imported.  If you are in one of these what else is needed to work it out?

A lot of cities has a GTFS feed - with the latest public transport info it can be combined with  OSM hospital info
see: https://www.mapnificent.net/  [ "Shows you areas you can reach with public transport in a given time" ]

Best,
 Imre



john whelan <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018. szept. 28., P, 23:24):
I drifted down to a government conference on open data and software today and whilst there a question came up concerning proximity to a hospital.

Just a planner wondering where to put it to maximise the ease of access for as many people as possible.

You can route plan for walking and driving a car but what can you do for public transport.

Essentially it is how many buildings are within 1 km for pedestrians, 3 km for cyclists, 7 km for a car.  I've chosen arbitrary numbers but public transit is quite different.  If you live within a 5 minute walk of a bus stop on a route that goes past the hospital then its easy to get to but how do you find these locations using OpenStreetMap data?

Many cities have had their bus stops imported.  If you are in one of these what else is needed to work it out?

The information is worth money.  The right location makes a business or amenity more valuable.

What do we have? 

Is this the right forum to raise the problem?

Thanks John
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

john whelan-2
https://www.mapnificent.net/ does a close enough job for public transit certainly locally and demonstrates it can be done.

I thank Fredrick for his comments as well.  If a more refined solution is required then there is enough information given to make a start coding.

Thanks John

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 6:51 pm Imre Samu, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you live within a 5 minute walk of a bus stop on a route that goes past the hospital then its easy to get to but how do you find these locations using OpenStreetMap data?
>Many cities have had their bus stops imported.  If you are in one of these what else is needed to work it out?

A lot of cities has a GTFS feed - with the latest public transport info it can be combined with  OSM hospital info
see: https://www.mapnificent.net/  [ "Shows you areas you can reach with public transport in a given time" ]

Best,
 Imre



john whelan <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018. szept. 28., P, 23:24):
I drifted down to a government conference on open data and software today and whilst there a question came up concerning proximity to a hospital.

Just a planner wondering where to put it to maximise the ease of access for as many people as possible.

You can route plan for walking and driving a car but what can you do for public transport.

Essentially it is how many buildings are within 1 km for pedestrians, 3 km for cyclists, 7 km for a car.  I've chosen arbitrary numbers but public transit is quite different.  If you live within a 5 minute walk of a bus stop on a route that goes past the hospital then its easy to get to but how do you find these locations using OpenStreetMap data?

Many cities have had their bus stops imported.  If you are in one of these what else is needed to work it out?

The information is worth money.  The right location makes a business or amenity more valuable.

What do we have? 

Is this the right forum to raise the problem?

Thanks John
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Jem
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

Jem
One method might be to plot a path from each building to the health centre by walking, car and bicycle then see how many can reach it within x minutes.  That is a lot of routing calculation to do but it can be done overnight or even over a couple of days.

Consider using a reverse walk from the destination and aggregating stats on the travel times to origins. That will speed things up nicely.

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 10:01 AM john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
https://www.mapnificent.net/ does a close enough job for public transit certainly locally and demonstrates it can be done.

I thank Fredrick for his comments as well.  If a more refined solution is required then there is enough information given to make a start coding.

Thanks John

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 6:51 pm Imre Samu, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you live within a 5 minute walk of a bus stop on a route that goes past the hospital then its easy to get to but how do you find these locations using OpenStreetMap data?
>Many cities have had their bus stops imported.  If you are in one of these what else is needed to work it out?

A lot of cities has a GTFS feed - with the latest public transport info it can be combined with  OSM hospital info
see: https://www.mapnificent.net/  [ "Shows you areas you can reach with public transport in a given time" ]

Best,
 Imre



john whelan <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2018. szept. 28., P, 23:24):
I drifted down to a government conference on open data and software today and whilst there a question came up concerning proximity to a hospital.

Just a planner wondering where to put it to maximise the ease of access for as many people as possible.

You can route plan for walking and driving a car but what can you do for public transport.

Essentially it is how many buildings are within 1 km for pedestrians, 3 km for cyclists, 7 km for a car.  I've chosen arbitrary numbers but public transit is quite different.  If you live within a 5 minute walk of a bus stop on a route that goes past the hospital then its easy to get to but how do you find these locations using OpenStreetMap data?

Many cities have had their bus stops imported.  If you are in one of these what else is needed to work it out?

The information is worth money.  The right location makes a business or amenity more valuable.

What do we have? 

Is this the right forum to raise the problem?

Thanks John
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Proximity

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
Hi,

On 29.09.2018 01:59, john whelan wrote:
> I thank Fredrick for his comments as well.  If a more refined solution
> is required then there is enough information given to make a start coding.

I know Perl isn't what people use these days but just to show that it
really isn't rocket science (and doesn't require elaborate routing
engines for that scale) I've made a modified version of the Perl script
and checked it into the SVN directory. That script will take a .osm data
file as input and generate a schematic map like

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/ipswich-busstops.png

(which depicts Ipswich), where nodes are coloured according to their
distance from the nearest bus stop (in this picture, 500 Mercator metres
or more means something gets red).

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

john whelan-2
Thank you kind sir.  I've got sidetracked into trying to count types of buildings.

I used to use VB not for its power but for its development interface.  So much easier than using assembler which I started with many years ago.

Apparently I need a datatable to sort a couple of columns, fine but all the documentation is for C#.  It still has the nice development interface but there are differences.

I know exactly what I want to do but finding the correct syntax makes me feel if you know Perl and it can do the job stay with it.

Thanks John

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 6:26 pm Frederik Ramm, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On 29.09.2018 01:59, john whelan wrote:
> I thank Fredrick for his comments as well.  If a more refined solution
> is required then there is enough information given to make a start coding.

I know Perl isn't what people use these days but just to show that it
really isn't rocket science (and doesn't require elaborate routing
engines for that scale) I've made a modified version of the Perl script
and checked it into the SVN directory. That script will take a .osm data
file as input and generate a schematic map like

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/ipswich-busstops.png

(which depicts Ipswich), where nodes are coloured according to their
distance from the nearest bus stop (in this picture, 500 Mercator metres
or more means something gets red).

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

pierzen
Solutions depend how big is your data.  Overpass count function might be the solution if just a one shot calculation.  You would have a query for each type.

If you want to use the power of SQL databases, Sqlite is a «light solution», coupled with the DBeaver database tool.

I used to parse OSM xml with a Python script, but PostgreSQL + PosGIS offers more long term development options like for the Quality analysis I did on Building geometries (https://opendatalabrdc.github.io/Blog/index.html#!Database_Quality_Analysis_Tasking_Manager.md).  Osmosis (Osm2Pgsql schema) takes care to import OSM/Xml directly in a PostGIS database. From there, quite easy to count, filter, analyze data.
 
Pierre


Le samedi 29 septembre 2018 20 h 02 min 10 s HAE, john whelan <[hidden email]> a écrit :


Thank you kind sir.  I've got sidetracked into trying to count types of buildings.

I used to use VB not for its power but for its development interface.  So much easier than using assembler which I started with many years ago.

Apparently I need a datatable to sort a couple of columns, fine but all the documentation is for C#.  It still has the nice development interface but there are differences.

I know exactly what I want to do but finding the correct syntax makes me feel if you know Perl and it can do the job stay with it.

Thanks John

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 6:26 pm Frederik Ramm, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On 29.09.2018 01:59, john whelan wrote:
> I thank Fredrick for his comments as well.  If a more refined solution
> is required then there is enough information given to make a start coding.

I know Perl isn't what people use these days but just to show that it
really isn't rocket science (and doesn't require elaborate routing
engines for that scale) I've made a modified version of the Perl script
and checked it into the SVN directory. That script will take a .osm data
file as input and generate a schematic map like

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/ipswich-busstops.png

(which depicts Ipswich), where nodes are coloured according to their
distance from the nearest bus stop (in this picture, 500 Mercator metres
or more means something gets red).

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On 29.09.18 00:46, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 28.09.2018 23:21, john whelan wrote:
>> Many cities have had their bus stops imported.
> And even more cities have their bus stops mapped in the traditional
> fashion, like, riding a bus and recording where it stops. It's amazing
> how much you can do with one day pass :)
>
>> what else is needed to work it out?
> [...]
>
> 2. The existence of a bus stop in OSM does not mean it is actually
> served by a route; and the existence of a route in OSM that serves the
> bus stop does not necessarily say what frequency - it could be the
> school bus that only goes three times a day, or the night bus, or the
> bus extension to the pool that only goes in summer.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
On this website one can see on the OSM map not only the locations of
stops, but the positions of the public transportation vehicles
themselves in real time. Here are the positions of the tram (light
train) #28 in the city of Odessa:
https://www.eway.in.ua/ru/cities/odesa/routes/1

It is very convenient as one does not have to wait at the stop but can
leave home or office just in time to get on the tram. So no need to have
too many vehicles on the route as one can comfortably plan the trip even
if there are not many.

I think such dynamic real-time mapping is the future of public
transportation and cartography in general, though I am not sure how it
is implemented on this particular website. I assume they use GPS
sensors. But how they transmit locations to the map's server constantly
I am not sure.

Best regards,

Oleksiy


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
As a rule, if somewhere large like a hospital is built then bus
companies will change their routes to serve it.

More local health centres are built to serve their local area, if you
live in a settlement of a reasonable size you will expect the local
health centre to be walkable without using public transport.

Phil (trigpoint)


On Fri, 2018-09-28 at 18:48 -0400, john whelan wrote:

> >Here proximity to to a train station is worth more money than
> proximity to a bus stop.Within 1 km of a train station is where
> developers and purchases of apartments want them and they will pay
> more for that proximity.
>
> Train stations are usually well represented in OSM data.Bus stops are
> not so well represented, this will depend on the local mappers so it
> is area dependant.
>
> Perhaps I didn't state the problem clearly enough.
>
> If I have two possible sites for a health centre which will be more
> easily accessible?
>
> Assume the bus and tram stops are mapped and the route relationship
> is in place.  Assume the same is true if it is rail.  If the proposed
> sites for the health centre are not on the railway line then the rail
> is probably irrelevant.
>
> One method might be to plot a path from each building to the health
> centre by walking, car and bicycle then see how many can reach it
> within x minutes.  That is a lot of routing calculation to do but it
> can be done overnight or even over a couple of days.  You would then
> have to go through each travel plan and count the ones less than 10
> minutes or 45 minutes or whatever time you decide is the cut off
> point.
>
> Google I think has travel times for public transport available on its
> maps under directions.  I think for some cities we have the same
> information available, the GTFS file and locations but can we do
> travel times for public transport and how would you do it?.
>
> At the moment I don't think there is a good solution but someone
> might have some ideas on how to do it.
>
> Thanks John
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Proximity

john whelan-2
The person I spoke to who had the requirement was from Health Canada and they entered their name in an email to themselves on my phone.  They specifically asked for OpenStreetMap to the presenter and I didn't have time to discuss the requirements in detail.

The email address they entered was rejected.  I have other ways to track them down but I think they were trying to identify areas that were under-served.

However you have to remember we are talking Canada so walking is not so important.  We have many detached houses on 35 and 50 foot lots so in parts the density is low which means providing services within walking distance is challenging.   With wind chill it can reach minus 40c easily so elderly patients do not walk that often in winter.  Ice makes it more difficult.  Summer we have periods of over 30c when the elderly are advised to stay indoors. From memory the UK is different and more walking friendly.

Locally the municipal transit service is an exceptionally good hub and spoke system.  It arrives on time well within two minutes 99.5% of the time for local services which anyone from say the UK will find very difficult to believe so transit is more important to people without cars. 

Cheerio John

On Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 8:38 am Philip Barnes, <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a rule, if somewhere large like a hospital is built then bus
companies will change their routes to serve it.

More local health centres are built to serve their local area, if you
live in a settlement of a reasonable size you will expect the local
health centre to be walkable without using public transport.

Phil (trigpoint)




_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk