Question about road classifications

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Question about road classifications

South Africa mailing list
Hi everyone,

This is Andrew from Apple again. Earlier in the year I emailed about our team working on some road network improvements (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-za/2019-January/001248.html) and lately we have had some discussions about road classification around service roads and residential roads after we added some missing ones. I wanted to let you all know what we were thinking and get your feedback to see if you agree or have other suggestions.

The South African Tagging Guidelines (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/South_African_Tagging_Guidelines) don’t mention service roads at all, and the global tagging guidelines (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway) describe service roads to be used for specific commercial/industrial estates or driveways/alleys/car parks. It was suggested to us that service should be used for private roads to access buildings, which are generally dead end and/or have barriers or gates, and short roads that don’t have names. 

This seems logical to us, and if others agree with that maybe the South African Tagging Guidelines can be updated with that information. We can make the edits to the Wiki page if you’d like.

We are also currently going back and changing roads to service to fit these suggestions in and around Cape Town.

One tricky point in the suggestions is that we can’t tell from aerial imagery which ones don’t have names, so those might get missed. What does everyone think of that point?

Thanks!

Andrew 

Andrew Wiseman |
  Maps | iPhone: +1.202.270.4464 | [hidden email]


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Re: Question about road classifications

Gerhardus Geldenhuis
Hi
The definition of a service road seems a bit arbitrary even in the official tagging policy mentioned: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
One man's service road is another man's narrow residential road. 

"Armchair mapping" is dangerous if you are not properly ground truthing changes and you have not specified the criteria that you are using on imagery to determine whether a road qualifies as a service road or not. I for one do not see the value that changing these tags would add other than shape the data according to Apple's criteria for what Apple wants in a map, which is not what OpenStreetMap is about.

Regards

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 22:41, Andrew Wiseman via Talk-ZA <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

This is Andrew from Apple again. Earlier in the year I emailed about our team working on some road network improvements (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-za/2019-January/001248.html) and lately we have had some discussions about road classification around service roads and residential roads after we added some missing ones. I wanted to let you all know what we were thinking and get your feedback to see if you agree or have other suggestions.

The South African Tagging Guidelines (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/South_African_Tagging_Guidelines) don’t mention service roads at all, and the global tagging guidelines (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway) describe service roads to be used for specific commercial/industrial estates or driveways/alleys/car parks. It was suggested to us that service should be used for private roads to access buildings, which are generally dead end and/or have barriers or gates, and short roads that don’t have names. 

This seems logical to us, and if others agree with that maybe the South African Tagging Guidelines can be updated with that information. We can make the edits to the Wiki page if you’d like.

We are also currently going back and changing roads to service to fit these suggestions in and around Cape Town.

One tricky point in the suggestions is that we can’t tell from aerial imagery which ones don’t have names, so those might get missed. What does everyone think of that point?

Thanks!

Andrew 

Andrew Wiseman |
  Maps | iPhone: +1.202.270.4464 | [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Talk-ZA mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za


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Gerhardus Geldenhuis

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Re: Question about road classifications

Kieron Thwaites
"Armchair mapping" is dangerous if you are not properly ground truthing changes and you have not specified the criteria that you are using on imagery to determine whether a road qualifies as a service road or not. I for one do not see the value that changing these tags would add other than shape the data according to Apple's criteria for what Apple wants in a map, which is not what OpenStreetMap is about.

Case in point: the M3 in Cape Town arbitrarily being changed by armchair mappers to be highway=trunk for its entire length, blissfully unaware of the sections that should be highway=motorway (and that are delimited with start/end freeway signs that are blindingly obvious to anyone actually driving along it).  I did emigrate from South Africa two years ago though, so very hesitant to fix that one myself, even though I know where those signs are with reasonable accuracy.

--K

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 09:55, Gerhardus Geldenhuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi
The definition of a service road seems a bit arbitrary even in the official tagging policy mentioned: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
One man's service road is another man's narrow residential road. 

"Armchair mapping" is dangerous if you are not properly ground truthing changes and you have not specified the criteria that you are using on imagery to determine whether a road qualifies as a service road or not. I for one do not see the value that changing these tags would add other than shape the data according to Apple's criteria for what Apple wants in a map, which is not what OpenStreetMap is about.

Regards

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 22:41, Andrew Wiseman via Talk-ZA <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

This is Andrew from Apple again. Earlier in the year I emailed about our team working on some road network improvements (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-za/2019-January/001248.html) and lately we have had some discussions about road classification around service roads and residential roads after we added some missing ones. I wanted to let you all know what we were thinking and get your feedback to see if you agree or have other suggestions.

The South African Tagging Guidelines (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/South_African_Tagging_Guidelines) don’t mention service roads at all, and the global tagging guidelines (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway) describe service roads to be used for specific commercial/industrial estates or driveways/alleys/car parks. It was suggested to us that service should be used for private roads to access buildings, which are generally dead end and/or have barriers or gates, and short roads that don’t have names. 

This seems logical to us, and if others agree with that maybe the South African Tagging Guidelines can be updated with that information. We can make the edits to the Wiki page if you’d like.

We are also currently going back and changing roads to service to fit these suggestions in and around Cape Town.

One tricky point in the suggestions is that we can’t tell from aerial imagery which ones don’t have names, so those might get missed. What does everyone think of that point?

Thanks!

Andrew 

Andrew Wiseman |
  Maps | iPhone: +1.202.270.4464 | [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Talk-ZA mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za


--
Gerhardus Geldenhuis
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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za

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Re: Question about road classifications

South Africa mailing list
Thanks everyone for the responses, good to know about the M3. It sounds like there isn’t any objection to what was suggested to us about the service vs residential issue, so we’ll follow those suggestions going forward. I can update the wiki page to document that as well, unless someone else wants to. Please let me know if anyone else has ideas or comments on that issue, we want to make sure we are following the local guidelines for that.

Andrew 


Andrew Wiseman |
  Maps | iPhone: +1.202.270.4464 | [hidden email]

On Aug 11, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Kieron Thwaites <[hidden email]> wrote:

"Armchair mapping" is dangerous if you are not properly ground truthing changes and you have not specified the criteria that you are using on imagery to determine whether a road qualifies as a service road or not. I for one do not see the value that changing these tags would add other than shape the data according to Apple's criteria for what Apple wants in a map, which is not what OpenStreetMap is about.

Case in point: the M3 in Cape Town arbitrarily being changed by armchair mappers to be highway=trunk for its entire length, blissfully unaware of the sections that should be highway=motorway (and that are delimited with start/end freeway signs that are blindingly obvious to anyone actually driving along it).  I did emigrate from South Africa two years ago though, so very hesitant to fix that one myself, even though I know where those signs are with reasonable accuracy.

--K

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 09:55, Gerhardus Geldenhuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi
The definition of a service road seems a bit arbitrary even in the official tagging policy mentioned: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
One man's service road is another man's narrow residential road. 

"Armchair mapping" is dangerous if you are not properly ground truthing changes and you have not specified the criteria that you are using on imagery to determine whether a road qualifies as a service road or not. I for one do not see the value that changing these tags would add other than shape the data according to Apple's criteria for what Apple wants in a map, which is not what OpenStreetMap is about.

Regards

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 22:41, Andrew Wiseman via Talk-ZA <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,

This is Andrew from Apple again. Earlier in the year I emailed about our team working on some road network improvements (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-za/2019-January/001248.html) and lately we have had some discussions about road classification around service roads and residential roads after we added some missing ones. I wanted to let you all know what we were thinking and get your feedback to see if you agree or have other suggestions.

The South African Tagging Guidelines (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/South_African_Tagging_Guidelines) don’t mention service roads at all, and the global tagging guidelines (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway) describe service roads to be used for specific commercial/industrial estates or driveways/alleys/car parks. It was suggested to us that service should be used for private roads to access buildings, which are generally dead end and/or have barriers or gates, and short roads that don’t have names. 

This seems logical to us, and if others agree with that maybe the South African Tagging Guidelines can be updated with that information. We can make the edits to the Wiki page if you’d like.

We are also currently going back and changing roads to service to fit these suggestions in and around Cape Town.

One tricky point in the suggestions is that we can’t tell from aerial imagery which ones don’t have names, so those might get missed. What does everyone think of that point?

Thanks!

Andrew 

Andrew Wiseman |
  Maps | iPhone: +1.202.270.4464 | [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Talk-ZA mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za


--
Gerhardus Geldenhuis
_______________________________________________
Talk-ZA mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za
_______________________________________________
Talk-ZA mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za


_______________________________________________
Talk-ZA mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-za