RE: Coders needed for similar project & UK FOIactrequest update.

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RE: Coders needed for similar project & UK FOIactrequest update.

Clive Galway-2
Read my argument. I argued specifically that since you can manually
enter lat long OR click on the map using my program, how can they prove
it ?
Also, my program allows import of points and paths from a GPS unit. So,
theoretically, if you GPSed a road or a river - surveyed it yourself, so
to speak, then just overlayed it on their map, how do they own it ? It
existed before it entered the google map, was unchanged by being added
to it - my code has plot routines that accepts coordinates as the raw
lat/long WGS84 coords so all I am doing is drawing points and lines in
javascript on a background that happens to be provided by google.
See an example here:
http://www.evilc.com/phpbb/gmaps.php?action=seek&seekmode=location&locat
ion_id=46
That is a GPS trace of a race track I took using a pocketpc running
chitigps with a Bluetooth GPS unit. chtiGPS spat out a CSV file of the
trace and I copy and pasted that into a textbox on my site, hit submit
and it added that line. How can anyone but me own that data ?

>Clicking on the map creates a derived work.
>
>Typing in a GPS-sourced point doesn't.
>
>Since you don't provide any UI for users to type in a lat/long or
>easting/northing numerically, a lawyer will, very reasonably, assume
>that at least some of your points came from clicking on the map.
>
>We've been through this countless times now... you're not the first. :(
>
>Richard


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-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
Fairhurst
Sent: 10 November 2005 00:15
To:
[hidden email]@[hidden email]
.ac.uk
Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] Coders needed for similar project & UK
FOIactrequest update.

On 9 Nov 2005, at 23:45, Clive Galway wrote:

> Are you serious ??
> If I obtain lat/lng cords from my GPS unit and punch those in to my
> program, it will overlay them on a google map. Does google in any way
> own that data ? No. In my system, you can just as easily click a point
> on the map to add a location just as easily. When you submit a point
> and
> add it to the database there is no way to tell whether it came from a
> gps unit or you clicked on the map - all that is stored in my database
> is the latitude and longitude.

Clicking on the map creates a derived work.

Typing in a GPS-sourced point doesn't.

Since you don't provide any UI for users to type in a lat/long or
easting/northing numerically, a lawyer will, very reasonably, assume
that at least some of your points came from clicking on the map.

We've been through this countless times now... you're not the first. :(

Richard


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RE: Coders needed for similar project & UKFOIactrequest update.

Clive Galway-2
Oops, mangled link-
http://www.evilc.com/phpbb/gmaps.php?action=seek&seekmode=location&locat
ion_id=46
My outlook is messing up, make sure the location_id=46 is on the end.
I read the google API terms of use
(http://www.google.com/apis/maps/terms.html ) and no-where does it say
it owns any data you enter.
Mainly because google doesn't supply a mechanism for storing points.
All the google API does is let you add stuff to a google maps background
in a window on your own site. As long as you don't charge people to view
the site or do other dodgy things like terrorism etc then it's pretty
much up to you what you do with it and google lays no claim to any data
you may add to a google-served map on your site using the API. The data
is hosted by you, the map tiles by google.


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Clive Galway
Sent: 10 November 2005 00:50
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Openstreetmap] Coders needed for similar project &
UKFOIactrequest update.

Read my argument. I argued specifically that since you can manually
enter lat long OR click on the map using my program, how can they prove
it ?
Also, my program allows import of points and paths from a GPS unit. So,
theoretically, if you GPSed a road or a river - surveyed it yourself, so
to speak, then just overlayed it on their map, how do they own it ? It
existed before it entered the google map, was unchanged by being added
to it - my code has plot routines that accepts coordinates as the raw
lat/long WGS84 coords so all I am doing is drawing points and lines in
javascript on a background that happens to be provided by google.
See an example here:
http://www.evilc.com/phpbb/gmaps.php?action=seek&seekmode=location&locat
ion_id=46
That is a GPS trace of a race track I took using a pocketpc running
chitigps with a Bluetooth GPS unit. chtiGPS spat out a CSV file of the
trace and I copy and pasted that into a textbox on my site, hit submit
and it added that line. How can anyone but me own that data ?

>Clicking on the map creates a derived work.
>
>Typing in a GPS-sourced point doesn't.
>
>Since you don't provide any UI for users to type in a lat/long or
>easting/northing numerically, a lawyer will, very reasonably, assume
>that at least some of your points came from clicking on the map.
>
>We've been through this countless times now... you're not the first. :(
>
>Richard


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-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
Fairhurst
Sent: 10 November 2005 00:15
To:
[hidden email]@[hidden email]
.ac.uk
Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] Coders needed for similar project & UK
FOIactrequest update.

On 9 Nov 2005, at 23:45, Clive Galway wrote:

> Are you serious ??
> If I obtain lat/lng cords from my GPS unit and punch those in to my
> program, it will overlay them on a google map. Does google in any way
> own that data ? No. In my system, you can just as easily click a point
> on the map to add a location just as easily. When you submit a point
> and
> add it to the database there is no way to tell whether it came from a
> gps unit or you clicked on the map - all that is stored in my database
> is the latitude and longitude.

Clicking on the map creates a derived work.

Typing in a GPS-sourced point doesn't.

Since you don't provide any UI for users to type in a lat/long or
easting/northing numerically, a lawyer will, very reasonably, assume
that at least some of your points came from clicking on the map.

We've been through this countless times now... you're not the first. :(

Richard


_______________________________________________
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http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap



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Re: Coders needed for similar project & UK FOIactrequest update.

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Clive Galway-2
On 10 Nov 2005, at 00:46, Clive Galway wrote:

> Read my argument. I argued specifically that since you can manually
> enter lat long OR click on the map using my program, how can they prove
> it ?

They can't prove it for one single point.

But for an aggregation of data, which I'd guess is what you're trying
to achieve, they can argue very convincingly that some users will have
clicked on the map to enter points - since you provide a UI for them to
do exactly that.

This makes your database a derived work, especially as you say (in your
earlier e-mail) that "there is no way to tell whether it came from a
gps unit or you clicked on the map - all that is stored in my database
is the latitude and longitude".

It's not just Steve and me who think this. Take a look at
http://www.kingston.ac.uk/gis/ppt/EDINA05.pdf , particularly page 16.

> Also, my program allows import of points and paths from a GPS unit. So,
> theoretically, if you GPSed a road or a river - surveyed it yourself,
> so
> to speak, then just overlayed it on their map, how do they own it ?

They don't.

No-one is claiming that Google ownz0rs your GPS tracks. No-one is
claiming that Google owns information just by virtue of you
superimposing it on their map.

Rather: I have just used your map to add a point for 'the end of Elms
Road' in Burton-on-Trent, Staffordshire. I did this by clicking on the
point on Google Maps at the end of Elms Road.

This entered a latitude of -1.6153764724731 and a longitude of
52.800945232281 into your form. I then clicked 'Save'. This wrote it to
your database. (I was, of course, wrong in my previous e-mail when I
said there wasn't a way to type in lat/longs directly - sorry.)

Your database now contains material which is (c) TeleAtlas, Google's
map supplier: the material in question being that "the end of Elms Road
is at -1.6153764724731, 52.800945232281". Your database is now a
derived work from TeleAtlas. A few more of these and you won't be able
to legally redistribute it without their permission.

Google Maps' terms of use aren't relevant - they do not overrule
TeleAtlas's rights under UK statute law.

Richard


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Re: Coders needed for similar project & UKFOIactrequest update.

Clive Galway-2
In reply to this post by Clive Galway-2

Well there is no facility to enter lines yet via the gui, so all lines entered into that program are OK then. You could even upload all openstreetmap's roads into my program using the paste CVS box, view them against the google maps background - by your argument, that's OK, because you own the tracks. You can then see which roads you have missed, even mark out with markers who is claiming which patch to do the traces (ie allocating areas to people to do traces of, keeping track of who is tracing which areas) - as long as all you do is upload traces as a reference and only use the original traces for the real openstreetmap, not any points you have plotted via the GUI. Lol, thinking about it the site doesn't even have to be visible to the internet. It runs just fine on my windows PC using WAMP (A windows LAMP stack) and pulls map tiles from google through my firewall - theres probably no way google could even know what you are overlaying onto their maps seeing as all they are gonna see is map tile jpegs being streamed to a pc behind a firewall :P I am gonna do what I am gonna do for now, I am just trying to put the idea to you guys that this may be a useful tool for helping you collect and visualize your data - In public or not...

 

-----Original Message-----

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Fairhurst

Sent: 10 November 2005 01:24

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] Coders needed for similar project & UKFOIactrequest update.

 

On 10 Nov 2005, at 00:46, Clive Galway wrote:

 

> Read my argument. I argued specifically that since you can manually

> enter lat long OR click on the map using my program, how can they

> prove it ?

 

They can't prove it for one single point.

 

But for an aggregation of data, which I'd guess is what you're trying

to achieve, they can argue very convincingly that some users will have

clicked on the map to enter points - since you provide a UI for them to

do exactly that.

 

This makes your database a derived work, especially as you say (in your

earlier e-mail) that "there is no way to tell whether it came from a

gps unit or you clicked on the map - all that is stored in my database

is the latitude and longitude".

 

It's not just Steve and me who think this. Take a look at

http://www.kingston.ac.uk/gis/ppt/EDINA05.pdf , particularly page 16.

 

> Also, my program allows import of points and paths from a GPS unit.

> So, theoretically, if you GPSed a road or a river - surveyed it

> yourself, so to speak, then just overlayed it on their map, how do

> they own it ?

 

They don't.

 

No-one is claiming that Google ownz0rs your GPS tracks. No-one is

claiming that Google owns information just by virtue of you

superimposing it on their map.

 

Rather: I have just used your map to add a point for 'the end of Elms

Road' in Burton-on-Trent, Staffordshire. I did this by clicking on the

point on Google Maps at the end of Elms Road.

 

This entered a latitude of -1.6153764724731 and a longitude of

52.800945232281 into your form. I then clicked 'Save'. This wrote it to

your database. (I was, of course, wrong in my previous e-mail when I

said there wasn't a way to type in lat/longs directly - sorry.)

 

Your database now contains material which is (c) TeleAtlas, Google's

map supplier: the material in question being that "the end of Elms Road

is at -1.6153764724731, 52.800945232281". Your database is now a

derived work from TeleAtlas. A few more of these and you won't be able

to legally redistribute it without their permission.

 

Google Maps' terms of use aren't relevant - they do not overrule

TeleAtlas's rights under UK statute law.

 

Richard

 

 

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Re: Coders needed for similar project & UKFOIactrequest update.

Simon Hewison
Clive Galway wrote:
> because you own the tracks. You can then see which roads you have
> missed, even mark out with markers who is claiming which patch to do the

.. That's where you run into problems. Suppose that Tele Atlas NV
included a fake road into their data, which got displayed by Google
Maps, which you then traced, on the assumption that all data displayed
by Google Maps is "correct". That's a copyright easter egg, and is easy
for the original creator of the data to spot, even if the co-ordinates
of the points along the line are tens of metres away from the original
data, even if it looks stylized; if there's a road there that isn't
there in reality, that's an obvious derived work.

However, if you happen to be in the area you're working on, and you then
cross-reference discrepancies between different sources (Openstreetmap,
Tele Atlas, Ordnance Survey etc), and then realise that there looks to
be some street which needs manually surveying with a GPS; only when you
actually try to drive down a road which isn't there do you know that
you've found the Easter Egg. If it's a real street, great, you've just
used other people's information to aid in your own information gathering
- to identify streets that haven't been surveyed.

--
Simon Hewison

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Re: Coders needed for similar project & UKFOIactrequest update.

Tom Carden
In reply to this post by Clive Galway-2
Just a quick one.

Clive - your attitude to mapping copyright frankly just isn't paranoid
enough for this community to take any of your advice seriously.  Sure,
it would be easy to plot lines on Google maps (Steve and I did this
with GPX files ages ago, and the OpenStreetMap API can write to GPX...
don't you think it would have been trivial for us to link the two
together if we wanted to?)

If anyone is seriously thinking of comparing OpenStreetMap to another
mapping provider's maps for anywhere except areas you personally know
inside-out, please don't.  Don't even think about it.  And please
/please/ *please* don't sit and copy street names from one map to
another unless you made the map yourself or you know it to be out of
copyright (and correct).  We never intend to make this easy for
people, it's just too risky.  There are plenty of precedents for
mapping copyrights being defended under UK law, we have no intention
of being the next victims of that process.

Best,

Tom.



On 11/10/05, Clive Galway <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> Well there is no facility to enter lines yet via the gui, so all lines
> entered into that program are OK then. You could even upload all
> openstreetmap's roads into my program using the paste CVS box, view them
> against the google maps background - by your argument, that's OK, because
> you own the tracks. You can then see which roads you have missed, even mark
> out with markers who is claiming which patch to do the traces (ie allocating
> areas to people to do traces of, keeping track of who is tracing which
> areas) - as long as all you do is upload traces as a reference and only use
> the original traces for the real openstreetmap, not any points you have
> plotted via the GUI. Lol, thinking about it the site doesn't even have to be
> visible to the internet. It runs just fine on my windows PC using WAMP (A
> windows LAMP stack) and pulls map tiles from google through my firewall -
> theres probably no way google could even know what you are overlaying onto
> their maps seeing as all they are gonna see is map tile jpegs being streamed
> to a pc behind a firewall :P I am gonna do what I am gonna do for now, I am
> just trying to put the idea to you guys that this may be a useful tool for
> helping you collect and visualize your data - In public or not...
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Richard Fairhurst
>
> Sent: 10 November 2005 01:24
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] Coders needed for similar project &
> UKFOIactrequest update.
>
>
>
>
> On 10 Nov 2005, at 00:46, Clive Galway wrote:
>
>
>
> > Read my argument. I argued specifically that since you can manually
>
> > enter lat long OR click on the map using my program, how can they
>
> > prove it ?
>
>
>
> They can't prove it for one single point.
>
>
>
> But for an aggregation of data, which I'd guess is what you're trying
>
> to achieve, they can argue very convincingly that some users will have
>
> clicked on the map to enter points - since you provide a UI for them to
>
> do exactly that.
>
>
>
> This makes your database a derived work, especially as you say (in your
>
> earlier e-mail) that "there is no way to tell whether it came from a
>
> gps unit or you clicked on the map - all that is stored in my database
>
> is the latitude and longitude".
>
>
>
> It's not just Steve and me who think this. Take a look at
>
> http://www.kingston.ac.uk/gis/ppt/EDINA05.pdf ,
> particularly page 16.
>
>
>
> > Also, my program allows import of points and paths from a GPS unit.
>
> > So, theoretically, if you GPSed a road or a river - surveyed it
>
> > yourself, so to speak, then just overlayed it on their map, how do
>
> > they own it ?
>
>
>
> They don't.
>
>
>
> No-one is claiming that Google ownz0rs your GPS tracks. No-one is
>
> claiming that Google owns information just by virtue of you
>
> superimposing it on their map.
>
>
>
> Rather: I have just used your map to add a point for 'the end of Elms
>
> Road' in Burton-on-Trent, Staffordshire. I did this by clicking on the
>
> point on Google Maps at the end of Elms Road.
>
>
>
> This entered a latitude of -1.6153764724731 and a longitude of
>
> 52.800945232281 into your form. I then clicked 'Save'. This wrote it to
>
> your database. (I was, of course, wrong in my previous e-mail when I
>
> said there wasn't a way to type in lat/longs directly - sorry.)
>
>
>
> Your database now contains material which is (c) TeleAtlas, Google's
>
> map supplier: the material in question being that "the end of Elms Road
>
> is at -1.6153764724731, 52.800945232281". Your database is now a
>
> derived work from TeleAtlas. A few more of these and you won't be able
>
> to legally redistribute it without their permission.
>
>
>
> Google Maps' terms of use aren't relevant - they do not overrule
>
> TeleAtlas's rights under UK statute law.
>
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Openstreetmap mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openstreetmap mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap
>
>
>

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Re: Coders needed for similar project & UK FOIactrequest update.

Lars Aronsson
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> It's not just Steve and me who think this. Take a look at
> http://www.kingston.ac.uk/gis/ppt/EDINA05.pdf , particularly page 16.

I don't know the person who wrote this (Mike J Smith, is he on
this list?)  or how he arrived at the conclusion.  Did the OS tell
him?  Or did a court of law tell him?  That is a big difference.  
People who claim to "own" copyright will tell you anything, and
often they get away with it because the user knows even less.  
Can you point me to a court case?  Could it be appealed to the
European Court of Human Rights?

The important conclusion in the same presentation comes on page
22: "These issues force non-OS solutions".  Maybe the writer
exaggerates the copyright inheritance issue in order to push this
conclusion?  Note that he specifically says non-OS, not
non-proprietary, non-Google or non-TeleAtlas.


--
  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: Coders needed for similar project & UKFOIactrequest update.

Richard Fairhurst
Lars wrote:

> People who claim to "own" copyright will tell you anything, and
> often they get away with it because the user knows even less.

Indeed... and the OS is particularly renowned for this.

> Can you point me to a court case?  Could it be appealed to the
> European Court of Human Rights?

The court case for incorporating redrawn copyrighted data within your own
mapping is surely the Ordnance Survey vs the Automobile Association, as
reported in the scan at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/Copyright_Easter_Eggs . I don't
think OSM can afford ?20m damages quite yet (unless the Pledgebank exercise has
been _very_ successful).

> The important conclusion in the same presentation comes on page
> 22: "These issues force non-OS solutions".  Maybe the writer
> exaggerates the copyright inheritance issue in order to push this
> conclusion?  Note that he specifically says non-OS, not
> non-proprietary, non-Google or non-TeleAtlas.

Sure. But Google source their mapping from Teleatlas, who in turn source much of
their geodata from OS (http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/teleatlas-visit-aug05.php).

Steve - good idea about wikifying it... I'll start making some notes.

Richard

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Re: Coders needed for similar project & UK FOIactrequest update.

Alex Mauer
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> This makes your database a derived work, especially as you say (in your
> earlier e-mail) that "there is no way to tell whether it came from a gps
> unit or you clicked on the map - all that is stored in my database is
> the latitude and longitude".

I may be taking a US-centric view here, and if so I apologize...

My understanding is that facts cannot be copyrighted, and databases as
well to some extent.  It seems that a database like this one must be the
closest possible to raw facts.. simple co-ordinates, and possibly, a
statement that there is a road/line between some set of two
co-ordinates".  How can these simple facts be copyrightable!?

--
Bad - You get pulled over for doing 90 in a school zone and you're drunk
off your ass again at three in the afternoon.
Worse - The cop is drunk too, and he's a mean drunk.
FUCK! - A mean drunk that's actually a swarm of semi-sentient
flesh-eating beetles.
OpenPGP key id: 0x51192FF2 @ subkeys.pgp.net

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Re: Re: Coders needed for similar project & UK FOIactrequest update.

Lars Aronsson
Alex Mauer wrote:

> How can these simple facts be copyrightable!?

An introduction is given in the Wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_rights

It is a fact that "database rights" are now a part of copyright
law.  As Wikipedia says: "The policy disallows copying of
substantial parts of a database (including frequent extraction of
insubstantial parts) and in that respect is similar to copyright."

However, this still leaves some room for interpretation of the
concept (for example, how much is "substantial parts"?) in
national legislation, case law, and rights owners' eagerness to
litigate.  The British Ordnance Survey seems to be of the more
aggressive kind.

In any case, printed or bitmap rendered maps are covered by
traditional copyright for 70 years (or 50 years in the case of UK
Crown copyright), but database rights are only protected for 15
years. So you might get away with screen scraping Google Maps now
and publishing the data in the year 2021.  During the 15 years in
between, if the infringement is "substantial", the rights to the
derived database could belong to Google and/or TeleAtlas.


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  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: Coders needed for similar project & UKFOIactrequest update.

Lars Aronsson
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> The court case for incorporating redrawn copyrighted data within
> your own mapping is surely the Ordnance Survey vs the Automobile
> Association, as reported in the scan at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/Copyright_Easter_Eggs

That's a strange case!  Is the OS claiming a violation of their
copyright or of their database rights?  This isn't clear from the
article. Both copyright and database rights law offer protection
against copying, but not against "plagiarism".  I hope this case
goes to court, so we can find out.  If they settle outside of
court, we will never know.

"Presented with the evidence, the AA admitted copying plans of 64
British towns and cities" -- this isn't applicable to OSM.


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  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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