README tag with editor support

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README tag with editor support

Richard Welty-2
this is a summary of previous discussion on newbies & talk-us

we have an ongoing, persistent problem with armchair mappers
"correcting" the map to match out of date aerial imagery. i just
had to repair the map in Rensselaer, NY; the street named
Broadway was reconfigured in late 2012, and bing imagery is
out of date. a couple of months ago someone realigned my
edits to match the out of date bing imagery. others can and
have described similar situations.

i have started using the unofficial tag README whenever i
make edits that differ from current bing imagery; i usually
place the date of the note in ISO format at the beginning
of the text. for example, here is the note i placed on the
road in Rensselaer:

2013-01-15 - reconfiguration of road not yet fully reflected in aerial
imagery. do not conform this road to current imagery.

this has mostly worked, but in this specific case the armchair
mapper chose not to read the note, or read it and dismissed it.

so i have two things in mind here:

1) formalize the README tag as a way to caution future mappers

2) request editor support, when someone goes to change a
README tagged entity, it would be nice if editors would popup
a dialog saying something along the lines of

Warning: read the following before making any changes to this
object <README text follows>

other suggestions that have been made have included trying to
make the dates on which imagery was collected more obvious,
adding warnings when edits are newer than available imagery
(or newer than the imagery layer currently being displayed),
and pressing to get more current imagery into place.

does anyone have any thoughts on how to approach this?

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] README tag with editor support

Clifford Snow

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Richard Welty <[hidden email]> wrote:
1) formalize the README tag as a way to caution future mappers

2) request editor support, when someone goes to change a
README tagged entity, it would be nice if editors would popup
a dialog saying something along the lines of

Warning: read the following before making any changes to this
object <README text follows>

other suggestions that have been made have included trying to
make the dates on which imagery was collected more obvious,
adding warnings when edits are newer than available imagery
(or newer than the imagery layer currently being displayed),
and pressing to get more current imagery into place.

does anyone have any thoughts on how to approach this?


This certainly needs an editor fix. iD doesn't pick up a readme=* tag so the user isn't even aware someone wrote a warning message. 

The readme tag is more of a bandaid. A better way might be to capture the image date as a tag. The editor could then issue a warning message if the image date is older than the feature being modified. Not sure how this would work when different zoom levels have different dates. For example, if I see a road at zoom 14, but not at 19, I might use a little of both zoom levels to draw the feature. 

In any event, we need a way to warn the editor. 

--
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OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [Talk-us] README tag with editor support

brycenesbitt
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
The readme tag is more of a bandaid. A better way might be to capture the image date as a tag. The editor could then issue a warning message if the image date is older than the feature being modified.

The readme is more flexible.  Out of date imagery is an important cause of an armchair mapper
undoing a local mapper's work, but not the only cause.

The image date will often be older than the feature, when using Bing imagery.

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Re: README tag with editor support

David Bannon-2
In reply to this post by Richard Welty-2
Formalising readme is a good and have editing tools display it. But i would like to see the readme tag used very selectively. It could contain far more data than the rest if the object's tag. Bad if people saw it like comments in source code.

Perhaps more emphasis is needed on good manners when editing existing data too.

David
.

Richard Welty <[hidden email]> wrote:

>this is a summary of previous discussion on newbies & talk-us
>
>we have an ongoing, persistent problem with armchair mappers
>"correcting" the map to match out of date aerial imagery. i just
>had to repair the map in Rensselaer, NY; the street named
>Broadway was reconfigured in late 2012, and bing imagery is
>out of date. a couple of months ago someone realigned my
>edits to match the out of date bing imagery. others can and
>have described similar situations.
>
>i have started using the unofficial tag README whenever i
>make edits that differ from current bing imagery; i usually
>place the date of the note in ISO format at the beginning
>of the text. for example, here is the note i placed on the
>road in Rensselaer:
>
>2013-01-15 - reconfiguration of road not yet fully reflected in aerial
>imagery. do not conform this road to current imagery.
>
>this has mostly worked, but in this specific case the armchair
>mapper chose not to read the note, or read it and dismissed it.
>
>so i have two things in mind here:
>
>1) formalize the README tag as a way to caution future mappers
>
>2) request editor support, when someone goes to change a
>README tagged entity, it would be nice if editors would popup
>a dialog saying something along the lines of
>
>Warning: read the following before making any changes to this
>object <README text follows>
>
>other suggestions that have been made have included trying to
>make the dates on which imagery was collected more obvious,
>adding warnings when edits are newer than available imagery
>(or newer than the imagery layer currently being displayed),
>and pressing to get more current imagery into place.
>
>does anyone have any thoughts on how to approach this?
>
>richard
>
>--
>[hidden email]
> Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
> OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
> Java - Web Applications - Search
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tagging mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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Re: README tag with editor support

Janko Mihelić

I like the idea. Editors show the message prominently the first time you touch the object. It doesn't have to be imagery, it can be various messages to subsequent mappers.


pet, 12. lip 2015. 00:20 David <[hidden email]> je napisao:
Formalising readme is a good and have editing tools display it. But i would like to see the readme tag used very selectively. It could contain far more data than the rest if the object's tag. Bad if people saw it like comments in source code.

Perhaps more emphasis is needed on good manners when editing existing data too.

David
.

Richard Welty <[hidden email]> wrote:

>this is a summary of previous discussion on newbies & talk-us
>
>we have an ongoing, persistent problem with armchair mappers
>"correcting" the map to match out of date aerial imagery. i just
>had to repair the map in Rensselaer, NY; the street named
>Broadway was reconfigured in late 2012, and bing imagery is
>out of date. a couple of months ago someone realigned my
>edits to match the out of date bing imagery. others can and
>have described similar situations.
>
>i have started using the unofficial tag README whenever i
>make edits that differ from current bing imagery; i usually
>place the date of the note in ISO format at the beginning
>of the text. for example, here is the note i placed on the
>road in Rensselaer:
>
>2013-01-15 - reconfiguration of road not yet fully reflected in aerial
>imagery. do not conform this road to current imagery.
>
>this has mostly worked, but in this specific case the armchair
>mapper chose not to read the note, or read it and dismissed it.
>
>so i have two things in mind here:
>
>1) formalize the README tag as a way to caution future mappers
>
>2) request editor support, when someone goes to change a
>README tagged entity, it would be nice if editors would popup
>a dialog saying something along the lines of
>
>Warning: read the following before making any changes to this
>object <README text follows>
>
>other suggestions that have been made have included trying to
>make the dates on which imagery was collected more obvious,
>adding warnings when edits are newer than available imagery
>(or newer than the imagery layer currently being displayed),
>and pressing to get more current imagery into place.
>
>does anyone have any thoughts on how to approach this?
>
>richard
>
>--
>[hidden email]
> Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
> OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
> Java - Web Applications - Search
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tagging mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
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Re: README tag with editor support

Mike N.
In reply to this post by David Bannon-2
On 6/11/2015 6:17 PM, David wrote:
> Perhaps more emphasis is needed on good manners when editing existing data too.

I believe these are mostly honest mistakes with good intentions.  If
someone traces imagery or works a fixup challenge while watching TV,
99.99% of edits might be to verify and match to the imagery.  The .001%
is something that takes awareness and a more detailed look to properly
resolve.


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Re: [OSM-talk] README tag with editor support

Ian Sergeant-2
In reply to this post by Janko Mihelić
Perhaps a nice objective tag, rather than README text.

If a feature is new, add a start_date tag.

The editor can then have options..

1, Alert the user if the start date  is more recent than the layers currently displayed.
2. Visually indicate if the start_date is within a configurable recency (say, draw a halo around objects constructed in the past two years, or so).

There is also some scope for automated analysis, rather than depend on free text.

Ian.



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Re: README tag with editor support

jgpacker
In reply to this post by Richard Welty-2
This tag already exists and has editor support (at least in iD) for a considerable time.
It's called note=*.

Cheers,
João
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Re: README tag with editor support

John Willis

> On Jun 12, 2015, at 9:55 AM, jgpacker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This tag already exists and has editor support (at least in iD) for a
> considerable time.
> It's called note=*.
>
> Cheers,
> João
>

Note doesn’t appear in a modal window when selecting an object, just on the list on the left (and offscreen, way down at the bottom of the list)  Maybe it is a good idea to make it a modal dialog box the first time you select an object with a note=* tag or have the note field appear directly under the tag name in the sidebar, if there is an existing note=* tag on the object.

Javbw



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Re: README tag with editor support

jgpacker
Well, I don't see a need to reinvent this tag anyway.
The key note=* is well-established as far as I'm aware.

If the editor interface isn't satisfactory, we should be talking with the developers.
I'm not sure if it's possible, but placing the note closer to the top of the presets seems like a good idea.

Cheers,
João
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Re: [OSM-talk] README tag with editor support

Bryan Housel
In reply to this post by Ian Sergeant-2
I’ll add my thoughts here..


Imagery:
The issue of outdated imagery is complicated because:
1. In iD we don't really know the date range that the imagery was taken (Bing is the exception not the rule, and we can get from their API only a range not a hard date)
2. It depends on what zoom the user happens to be looking at, not just the location.

And the imagery changes constantly, and can depend on caching and CDN issues.  So I don’t see a way for us to provide an automatic solution for this issue.


Notes Tag:
Yes, notes as a tag do "sort of" work right now.  A user can draw an area (closed way with `area=yes`) around the place where the imagery is known to be outdated and add a `note` tag, and iD will show it in the sidebar if someone happens to hover or select the area.  Notes are a bit problematic because they only appear in the language that the user created them in, and they can obviously be used for abuse.  The idea of having some arbitrary user entered README text popup automatically as the user scrolls around in iD (possibly containing naughty ascii pictures) - this just isn’t going to happen.


OSM Notes:
You could use OSM notes to warn users about imagery issues, though we don’t currently show them in iD.. But we plan to add this eventually, and it might be a better way to solve this issue rather than using a tag.  I like that OSM notes expire and can be marked as resolved.


New Tag:
Maybe we should define an actual tag for localized situations where you want to warn a future editor about something.  Like a `warning=*`, tag that would go on the surrounding area.  We could standardize on this so that e.g. `warning=imagery` could display a message (translated for the user) like “Imagery in this area may be outdated. Please do not make changes without local knowledge.”  `note=*` could provide more detail, and you could delete the warning eventually after Bing is up to date.


Thanks, Bryan





> On Jun 11, 2015, at 8:45 PM, Ian Sergeant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Perhaps a nice objective tag, rather than README text.
>
> If a feature is new, add a start_date tag.
>
> The editor can then have options..
>
> 1, Alert the user if the start date  is more recent than the layers currently displayed.
> 2. Visually indicate if the start_date is within a configurable recency (say, draw a halo around objects constructed in the past two years, or so).
>
> There is also some scope for automated analysis, rather than depend on free text.
>
> Ian.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: [Talk-us] README tag with editor support

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Richard Welty-2
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Richard Welty <[hidden email]> wrote:
so i have two things in mind here:

1) formalize the README tag as a way to caution future mappers

2) request editor support, when someone goes to change a
README tagged entity, it would be nice if editors would popup
a dialog saying something along the lines of

Warning: read the following before making any changes to this
object <README text follows>

other suggestions that have been made have included trying to
make the dates on which imagery was collected more obvious,
adding warnings when edits are newer than available imagery
(or newer than the imagery layer currently being displayed),
and pressing to get more current imagery into place.

does anyone have any thoughts on how to approach this?

Sounds like a cross between why OSMBugs was named Notes when it was integrated into OSM, combined with a need for better tracking of categories of notes, which is something I rather liked from Mapdust. 

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