Radio telescopes

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Radio telescopes

Joseph Eisenberg
I am working on rendering man_made=telescopes, starting with telescope:type=radio. Next will be telescope:type=optical.

I noticed that man_made=radio_telecope is listed as a possible tagging mistake on the telescope wiki page. But there are still over 200 tagged with this, versus 450 with telescope:type=radio. It is not on the deprecated features page.

Would it be acceptable to add man_made=radio_telescope to deprecated features, and suggest use of the more common man_made=telescope & telescope:type=radio tags?

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Re: Radio telescopes

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 25. Oct 2018, at 08:36, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> man_made=radio_telecope is listed as a possible tagging mistake on the telescope wiki page. But there are still over 200 tagged with this, versus 450 with telescope:type=radio. It is not on the deprecated features page.
>
> Would it be acceptable to add man_made=radio_telescope to deprecated features, and suggest use of the more common man_made=telescope & telescope:type=radio tags?


I would rather remove it from the possible tagging mistakes list and put it under “see also”.


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Radio telescopes

Joseph Eisenberg
There is no wiki page for man_made=radio_telescope

The old 2008 proposal page for Observatory listed both man_made=radio_telecope and telescope:type=radio, so that’s the source of ambiguity

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 4:09 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 25. Oct 2018, at 08:36, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> man_made=radio_telecope is listed as a possible tagging mistake on the telescope wiki page. But there are still over 200 tagged with this, versus 450 with telescope:type=radio. It is not on the deprecated features page.
>
> Would it be acceptable to add man_made=radio_telescope to deprecated features, and suggest use of the more common man_made=telescope & telescope:type=radio tags?


I would rather remove it from the possible tagging mistakes list and put it under “see also”.


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Radio telescopes

dieterdreist


Am Do., 25. Okt. 2018 um 09:36 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
There is no wiki page for man_made=radio_telescope

The old 2008 proposal page for Observatory listed both man_made=radio_telecope and telescope:type=radio, so that’s the source of ambiguity


which basically means there is documentation for the tag, but there is no individual tag definition page for it

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Radio telescopes

marc marc
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Le 25. 10. 18 à 09:35, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
> Would it be acceptable to add man_made=radio_telescope to
> deprecated features, and suggest use of the more common
> man_made=telescope & telescope:type=radio tags?

imho yes it's a good idea to avoid 2 tags with the same meaning
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Re: Radio telescopes

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
What about

man_made=tower
tower:type=communication
tower:construction=dish

See for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/199994565 it's even
rendered on the default OSM map.
On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 17:38, Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I am working on rendering man_made=telescopes, starting with telescope:type=radio. Next will be telescope:type=optical.
>
> I noticed that man_made=radio_telecope is listed as a possible tagging mistake on the telescope wiki page. But there are still over 200 tagged with this, versus 450 with telescope:type=radio. It is not on the deprecated features page.
>
> Would it be acceptable to add man_made=radio_telescope to deprecated features, and suggest use of the more common man_made=telescope & telescope:type=radio tags?
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Radio telescopes

Joseph Eisenberg
Please don’t tag radio telescopes with tower:communication. Telescopes observe, they do not communicate or send information.

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 6:53 PM Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
What about

man_made=tower
tower:type=communication
tower:construction=dish

See for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/199994565 it's even
rendered on the default OSM map.
On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 17:38, Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I am working on rendering man_made=telescopes, starting with telescope:type=radio. Next will be telescope:type=optical.
>
> I noticed that man_made=radio_telecope is listed as a possible tagging mistake on the telescope wiki page. But there are still over 200 tagged with this, versus 450 with telescope:type=radio. It is not on the deprecated features page.
>
> Would it be acceptable to add man_made=radio_telescope to deprecated features, and suggest use of the more common man_made=telescope & telescope:type=radio tags?
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Radio telescopes

dieterdreist
according to the definition for man_made=tower (that is currently discussed), telecopes are usually not towers (they are not much higher than wide, they are not generally accessible, etc.)

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Radio telescopes

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 21:08, Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Please don’t tag radio telescopes with tower:communication. Telescopes observe, they do not communicate or send information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_radio_telescopes lists many
radio telescopes which communicate and send information.

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Re: Radio telescopes

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 7:38 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am working on rendering man_made=telescopes, starting with telescope:type=radio. Next will be telescope:type=optical.

I do hope that telescope:type=audio (or accoustic, your choice) is on your to-do list.  It would be
nice to map these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_mirror (there are still a few hanging
around from WW II).

--
Paul


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Re: Radio telescopes

Daniel Koć
In reply to this post by Andrew Harvey-3
W dniu 25.10.2018 o 12:37, Andrew Harvey pisze:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 21:08, Joseph Eisenberg
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Please don’t tag radio telescopes with tower:communication. Telescopes observe, they do not communicate or send information.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_radio_telescopes lists many
> radio telescopes which communicate and send information.


We tag the meaning and primary function of telescope is observation, not
communication. Other functions are still possible (and tagging them is
welcome), but they are additional and loosing "telescope" drops the most
important property.


--

"Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]


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Re: Radio telescopes

Warin
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On 25/10/18 21:42, Paul Allen wrote:
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 7:38 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am working on rendering man_made=telescopes, starting with telescope:type=radio. Next will be telescope:type=optical.

I do hope that telescope:type=audio (or accoustic, your choice) is on your to-do list.  It would be
nice to map these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_mirror (there are still a few hanging
around from WW II).

These would be;
disused:telescope:type=audio

or possibly after all this time abandoned:





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Re: Radio telescopes

Warin
In reply to this post by Andrew Harvey-3
On 25/10/18 21:37, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 21:08, Joseph Eisenberg
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Please don’t tag radio telescopes with tower:communication. Telescopes observe, they do not communicate or send information.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_radio_telescopes lists many
> radio telescopes which communicate and send information.
>

And it lists many that do not communicate .. but receive only.

And there are growing numbers of them.

Some recent additions...

Node: Janimaarnu (2377899002)

   Tags:

     "name"="Janimaarnu"

     "website"="http://www.atnf.csiro.au/projects/askap/"

     "diameter"="12"

     "man_made"="radio_telescope"

     "ref:ASKAP"="24"

     "frequency"="0.7 - 1.8 GHz"

Node: 4936463806

   Tags:

     "antenna"="dual-polarization dipoles"

     "man_made"="radio_telescope"

     "frequency"="80 - 300 MHz"

More infor on this one and its brothers can be found at http://www.mwatelescope.org/.



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Re: Radio telescopes

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Daniel Koć
What's the recommended tagging for radio telescopes like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canberra_Deep_Space_Communication_Complex
which are parabolic dishes which are used for two way communication?

What about the radio telescope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkes_Observatory which is used for
communication but one way (receiving only, no transmit).

From the outside they look identical to radio telescopes used for
astronomy which I presume based on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made=telescope would be

man_made=telescope
telescope:type=radio
tower:construction=dish
On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 21:50, Daniel Koć <daniel@koć.pl> wrote:

>
> W dniu 25.10.2018 o 12:37, Andrew Harvey pisze:
> > On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 21:08, Joseph Eisenberg
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Please don’t tag radio telescopes with tower:communication. Telescopes observe, they do not communicate or send information.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_radio_telescopes lists many
> > radio telescopes which communicate and send information.
>
>
> We tag the meaning and primary function of telescope is observation, not
> communication. Other functions are still possible (and tagging them is
> welcome), but they are additional and loosing "telescope" drops the most
> important property.
>
>
> --
>
> "Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Radio telescopes

Daniel Koć
W dniu 25.10.2018 o 13:30, Andrew Harvey pisze:
> What's the recommended tagging for radio telescopes like
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canberra_Deep_Space_Communication_Complex
> which are parabolic dishes which are used for two way communication?


I am not interested in the subject, but from the definition it is not
telescope at all, it's so called "earth station" and it's primary
function is different (communication):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_station


--
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Re: Radio telescopes

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Warin
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 12:19 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25/10/18 21:42, Paul Allen wrote:
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 7:38 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am working on rendering man_made=telescopes, starting with telescope:type=radio. Next will be telescope:type=optical.

I do hope that telescope:type=audio (or accoustic, your choice) is on your to-do list.  It would be
nice to map these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_mirror (there are still a few hanging
around from WW II).

These would be;
disused:telescope:type=audio

or possibly after all this time abandoned:

The wiki (or at least the bit I looked at some time ago) seems to state that the difference between
disused and abandoned is how much effort would be required to bring it back into operation.
Since these only need microphones and amplifiers to be restored to full function, they're
disused, not abandoned (by that wiki definition).

At least one of these telescopes is a listed building: https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101271803-the-listening-post-selsey


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Re: Radio telescopes

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Daniel Koć
So the tower issue aside, if the dish is used for two way communication then:

man_made=tower + tower:type=communication +telescope:type=radio +
tower:construction=dish

If the dish is used for receiving only (whether looking at the stars or
reviving signals from humans in space) then:

man_made=telescope + telescope:type=radio + tower:construction=dish

Is that right?
On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 22:43, Daniel Koć <daniel@koć.pl> wrote:

>
> W dniu 25.10.2018 o 13:30, Andrew Harvey pisze:
> > What's the recommended tagging for radio telescopes like
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canberra_Deep_Space_Communication_Complex
> > which are parabolic dishes which are used for two way communication?
>
>
> I am not interested in the subject, but from the definition it is not
> telescope at all, it's so called "earth station" and it's primary
> function is different (communication):
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_station
>
>
> --
> "Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Radio telescopes

Warin
In reply to this post by Andrew Harvey-3
On 25/10/18 22:30, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> What's the recommended tagging for radio telescopes like
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canberra_Deep_Space_Communication_Complex
> which are parabolic dishes which are used for two way communication?
>
> What about the radio telescope
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkes_Observatory which is used for
> communication but one way (receiving only, no transmit).

Parks was constructed for reception only.

But was refitted for transmission probably for NASA (the moon program or possibly something before that?).

It is still used for both reception only and communication, so serves both functions.


>
>  From the outside they look identical to radio telescopes used for
> astronomy which I presume based on
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made=telescope would be
>
> man_made=telescope
> telescope:type=radio
> tower:construction=dish

The tower is not a 'dish'.

The tower supports the dish.

The 'dish' is a radio reflector, not an antenna.


> On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 21:50, Daniel Koć <daniel@koć.pl> wrote:
>> W dniu 25.10.2018 o 12:37, Andrew Harvey pisze:
>>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 at 21:08, Joseph Eisenberg
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Please don’t tag radio telescopes with tower:communication. Telescopes observe, they do not communicate or send information.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_radio_telescopes lists many
>>> radio telescopes which communicate and send information.
>>
>> We tag the meaning and primary function of telescope is observation, not
>> communication. Other functions are still possible (and tagging them is
>> welcome), but they are additional and loosing "telescope" drops the most
>> important property.

Only some 'radio telescopes' have transmit capabilities ... cost more money for that and astronomers are not interested in transmitting.

>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> "Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Radio telescopes

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Andrew Harvey-3
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 1:20 PM Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
So the tower issue aside, if the dish is used for two way communication then:

man_made=tower + tower:type=communication +telescope:type=radio +
tower:construction=dish

I would say that is the case even for one-way communication (either direction).  The hint is
in the word "communication"  - if it's used for communication then it doesn't matter whether
in one direction or two.

If the dish is used for receiving only (whether looking at the stars or
reviving signals from humans in space) then:

man_made=telescope + telescope:type=radio + tower:construction=dish

Again I have to disagree.  One is used for observing the other is used for receiving
communications (hint: "communication").

Of course, the same dish might be used for both purposes, switching from one use to the
other as required, so any tagging scheme ought to cope with that.

And then there's SETI.  I'd say that right now all SETI antennas are telescopes but there is a
possibility at some future time that some of them may become communications antennae.

BTW, these days few radio telescopes are dishes.  Most of them are phased arrays and not on towers
or masts.

--
Paul


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Re: Radio telescopes

Warin
On 25/10/18 23:56, Paul Allen wrote:
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 1:20 PM Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> wrote:
So the tower issue aside, if the dish is used for two way communication then:

man_made=tower + tower:type=communication +telescope:type=radio +
tower:construction=dish

I would say that is the case even for one-way communication (either direction).  The hint is
in the word "communication"  - if it's used for communication then it doesn't matter whether
in one direction or two.

If the dish is used for receiving only (whether looking at the stars or
reviving signals from humans in space) then:

man_made=telescope + telescope:type=radio + tower:construction=dish

Again I have to disagree.  One is used for observing the other is used for receiving
communications (hint: "communication").

Of course, the same dish might be used for both purposes, switching from one use to the
other as required, so any tagging scheme ought to cope with that.

And then there's SETI.  I'd say that right now all SETI antennas are telescopes but there is a
possibility at some future time that some of them may become communications antennae.

BTW, these days few radio telescopes are dishes.  Most of them are phased arrays and not on towers
or masts.

That depends on the frequency of operation.

New dish reflecting ones are being build. They simply perform the best for the intended frequencies.

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