Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Joseph Eisenberg
Any opinions on the order of the tag? 

Just a couple of people have said that default:language would be preferred to language:default.

It will take some time to update the proposal page, so I would like a few more opinions

Joseph

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:16 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should we change the tag from language:default to default:language?

I've found out that language:* has already been used in the format language:de, language:fr, language:en, etc, for the languages taught at a school. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dlanguage_school. And language=* has been used, though rarely.

There is also a page for default_language, which was made without going through the proposal process. And there is a new proposal to specify all "defaults" in the fomat default:subkey, though I have also seen this the other way around, eg key:default, suggested for maxspeed.

I am not wedded to the current tag "language:default=<code>". Please respond here (or on the talk page) if you prefer default:language=<code> or default_language=<code>, or if you prefer the current order.



Thank you,
Joseph

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 9:36 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please see the Proposal page for the new tag, "language:default=<language code>"
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format

Description:
"Specify the default language format used for names, and recommend use
of language-specific name tags.

"By making it easier to use language-specific name:code=* tags to be
used instead of the default name=* tag, this proposal will encourage
the use of name tags that include the language code for all features.
This will improve the quality and utility of the database. It will be
possible to display non-Western languages in their correct orientation
and script, properly display multilingual names, and to research the
most commonly used language formats in a particular area.

"The key language:default=* with a 2 or 3 letter ISO language code
should be tagged on administrative boundary relations, such as
countries, provinces and aboriginal communities. This is the language
used for the majority of named features within a particular region, as
indicated on public signs and in common use by the local community. If
the language can be written in more than one script, a qualifier can
be added to specify the script format. More than one language code can
be listed, separated with a semicolon, if the local community uses
more than one language on signs or by consensus.

"The language tag should be applied to the largest boundary relation
that accurately represents the language used for default names. When a
smaller administrative boundary has a different default language
format, this boundary should receive a language tag as well. This
would include boundaries of provinces or aboriginal lands where a
different language is used.

"The language tag may also be applied to individual features when the
name is in a different language than the default for the region, or
when the feature crosses a border."

Please read the whole page, which has quite a number of examples and a
detailed rationale for the proposal, then please comment here or on
the discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format

Thank you for all of your comments, criticisms and suggestions
-Joseph

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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Yuri Astrakhan-2
I still think that if this feature is there to document the language of the name tag, we should reuse the default_language [1] -- it is already set on more than 200 large regions, covering most of the world. What's the point of duplicating it?  If there is a region where name could be in 2 or more languages, we may want to introduce a new tag to specifically address that in those regions only, e.g. multiple_default_languages_of_the_region tag that lists all possible values that the name MAY be in. (the tag name might need some work :)).

That said, I fail to understand how it will help data processing. If a region could be in FR and DE, you still don't know the language of the specific feature's name.  How will the proposal help?  I might have misread it though.


On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 11:48 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Any opinions on the order of the tag? 

Just a couple of people have said that default:language would be preferred to language:default.

It will take some time to update the proposal page, so I would like a few more opinions

Joseph

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:16 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should we change the tag from language:default to default:language?

I've found out that language:* has already been used in the format language:de, language:fr, language:en, etc, for the languages taught at a school. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dlanguage_school. And language=* has been used, though rarely.

There is also a page for default_language, which was made without going through the proposal process. And there is a new proposal to specify all "defaults" in the fomat default:subkey, though I have also seen this the other way around, eg key:default, suggested for maxspeed.

I am not wedded to the current tag "language:default=<code>". Please respond here (or on the talk page) if you prefer default:language=<code> or default_language=<code>, or if you prefer the current order.



Thank you,
Joseph

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 9:36 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please see the Proposal page for the new tag, "language:default=<language code>"
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format

Description:
"Specify the default language format used for names, and recommend use
of language-specific name tags.

"By making it easier to use language-specific name:code=* tags to be
used instead of the default name=* tag, this proposal will encourage
the use of name tags that include the language code for all features.
This will improve the quality and utility of the database. It will be
possible to display non-Western languages in their correct orientation
and script, properly display multilingual names, and to research the
most commonly used language formats in a particular area.

"The key language:default=* with a 2 or 3 letter ISO language code
should be tagged on administrative boundary relations, such as
countries, provinces and aboriginal communities. This is the language
used for the majority of named features within a particular region, as
indicated on public signs and in common use by the local community. If
the language can be written in more than one script, a qualifier can
be added to specify the script format. More than one language code can
be listed, separated with a semicolon, if the local community uses
more than one language on signs or by consensus.

"The language tag should be applied to the largest boundary relation
that accurately represents the language used for default names. When a
smaller administrative boundary has a different default language
format, this boundary should receive a language tag as well. This
would include boundaries of provinces or aboriginal lands where a
different language is used.

"The language tag may also be applied to individual features when the
name is in a different language than the default for the region, or
when the feature crosses a border."

Please read the whole page, which has quite a number of examples and a
detailed rationale for the proposal, then please comment here or on
the discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format

Thank you for all of your comments, criticisms and suggestions
-Joseph
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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Joseph Eisenberg
Yuri,
The new proposal does not intend to define what language is used in the standard "name=*" tag.
This was attempted in 2 proposals last summer (2017), but both failed to be approved.
(See  name:language and   language:name )

Rather, this proposal hopes to make it possible for database users to rely on the language-specific name tags (name:en=*, name:fr=*, name:zh_pinyin=* etc). 

While it is easy enough to check what language is most commonly used in the name=* tags in most countries, there are too many exception.
This is especially a problem in places where the local community uses two or even three different names on street signs and in the default OSM name=*;
Examples: Brussels, Ethiopia Hong Kong, Morocco, parts of Spain and Slovenia, etc; this is just from the Multilingual Names page: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Unofficial_languages_and_dialects
And there are a number of places where local signs are in two languages, but only one language has been used in OSM up till now.

The hope is that database users will be able to start looking for the name:xxx=* tags first; based on the code in the default langauge format tag. 
Ror example, in Brussels the map renderer or routing app could look for name:fr=* and name:nl=* first. 
If both fr and nl name tags are present, use these to render the name label, or to announce the name of the street, for example. 
If only one tag (name:fr=* but not name:nl for example), just use that tag. If neither is found, then use the standard name=* tag as a fall-back.

This is a complicated subject, I hope it is more adequately explained in the proposal page under "rational", "tagging" and "examples":

For others following along: 
I did ask Yuri if it would be possible to re-write the Key:default_language page and move it to a proposal. 
Yuri made this page a few months ago, but it was not yet discussed on this mailing list or in the proposal process. But I wasn't sure if Yuri would approve of my changes.
The main difference is handling of multilingual names. I don't believe this proposal will be accepted if it does not handle regions where more than 1 language is used.
On Yuri's page for default_language=*, it first says that only one language should be specified, but then offers that two could be used, separated by "_,_" (eg fr_,_nl).
I believe a semicolon is better, because it is less likely to be used in actual names and signs, while a comma or dash or slash may be used in some real names.

There is also no mention of tagging individual map features which use a different language than the "default" for the region on Yuri's page.
I believe these two issues are important. (See Yuri's wiki page: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:default_language)

-Joseph


On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 1:11 PM Yuri Astrakhan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I still think that if this feature is there to document the language of the name tag, we should reuse the default_language [1] -- it is already set on more than 200 large regions, covering most of the world. What's the point of duplicating it?  If there is a region where name could be in 2 or more languages, we may want to introduce a new tag to specifically address that in those regions only, e.g. multiple_default_languages_of_the_region tag that lists all possible values that the name MAY be in. (the tag name might need some work :)).

That said, I fail to understand how it will help data processing. If a region could be in FR and DE, you still don't know the language of the specific feature's name.  How will the proposal help?  I might have misread it though.


On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 11:48 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Any opinions on the order of the tag? 

Just a couple of people have said that default:language would be preferred to language:default.

It will take some time to update the proposal page, so I would like a few more opinions

Joseph

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:16 AM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should we change the tag from language:default to default:language?

I've found out that language:* has already been used in the format language:de, language:fr, language:en, etc, for the languages taught at a school. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dlanguage_school. And language=* has been used, though rarely.

There is also a page for default_language, which was made without going through the proposal process. And there is a new proposal to specify all "defaults" in the fomat default:subkey, though I have also seen this the other way around, eg key:default, suggested for maxspeed.

I am not wedded to the current tag "language:default=<code>". Please respond here (or on the talk page) if you prefer default:language=<code> or default_language=<code>, or if you prefer the current order.



Thank you,
Joseph

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 9:36 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please see the Proposal page for the new tag, "language:default=<language code>"
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format

Description:
"Specify the default language format used for names, and recommend use
of language-specific name tags.

"By making it easier to use language-specific name:code=* tags to be
used instead of the default name=* tag, this proposal will encourage
the use of name tags that include the language code for all features.
This will improve the quality and utility of the database. It will be
possible to display non-Western languages in their correct orientation
and script, properly display multilingual names, and to research the
most commonly used language formats in a particular area.

"The key language:default=* with a 2 or 3 letter ISO language code
should be tagged on administrative boundary relations, such as
countries, provinces and aboriginal communities. This is the language
used for the majority of named features within a particular region, as
indicated on public signs and in common use by the local community. If
the language can be written in more than one script, a qualifier can
be added to specify the script format. More than one language code can
be listed, separated with a semicolon, if the local community uses
more than one language on signs or by consensus.

"The language tag should be applied to the largest boundary relation
that accurately represents the language used for default names. When a
smaller administrative boundary has a different default language
format, this boundary should receive a language tag as well. This
would include boundaries of provinces or aboriginal lands where a
different language is used.

"The language tag may also be applied to individual features when the
name is in a different language than the default for the region, or
when the feature crosses a border."

Please read the whole page, which has quite a number of examples and a
detailed rationale for the proposal, then please comment here or on
the discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format

Thank you for all of your comments, criticisms and suggestions
-Joseph
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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

dieterdreist
Do you have an idea how to deal with names that have several languages in them, e.g. "Spazio Italian Bistrot" https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5726043060
(Italian English French in the same name)?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Joseph Eisenberg
It's not always necessary or possible to interpret the language of a brand name.
It's more useful to know the language of names that are based on natural language, such as the names of most streets and natural features.
The copyrighted names of restaurants and shops are often entirely invented. They are legally called "fictitious business names" in the USA.

But in this case I think we can say it's clearly an English brand name.

"Spazio Italian Bistrot" isn't a real name, but a brand name, like KFC, IKEA, etc.
I suspect the less-common spelling of "Bistrot" is meant to make the brand more copyright-worthy
"Bistro" was used before "Bistrot" in Paris; so both are correct: Bistrots/Bistros in Paris:Definitions, Origins - France: Dining ...

The placement of the adjective "Italian" is clearly English; An Italian or French speaker would have written "Bistro Italiano" or "Bistrot Italien".
So I would add "name:en=Spazio Italian Bistrot" and "brand=Spazio Italian Bistrot" if there is more than one location. 

For something like "IKEA" or "KFC", I would use "brand" as well: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:brand
If the local location also has a specific name, that should be clearer; eg
"name:en=Portland Oregon IKEA" and "brand=IKEA", or "name:en=Manchester City Centre KFC", "brand=KFC"

TL:DR - the language of a Brand names cannot always be determined (but in this case it's English).
Usualy the most common language in the region will be used for invented shop & restaurant brand names, 
Fall back to "name=*" if you have no idea.
And use "brand=*", since this is often more precise than "name=*" for restuarants and shops.

Joseph


On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 11:18 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you have an idea how to deal with names that have several languages in them, e.g. "Spazio Italian Bistrot" https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5726043060
(Italian English French in the same name)?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 11:17, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

TL:DR - the language of a Brand names cannot always be determined (but in this case it's English).
Usualy the most common language in the region will be used for invented shop & restaurant brand names, 

That's something that I've been wondering about during this discussion of how names would appear & so on.

As a real common example, you have McDonalds all (or virtually) over the world, so how does the name appear on OSM maps in non-English speaking countries?

I know that if I use OSM from Australia & go to other countries, then their map appears in the local language. So if I go to eg Thailand or Cambodia, https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/16.810/97.405, can I still search OSM for "McDonalds", or do I have to search for some squiggly hieroglyphics? (With no offence intended to any Thais or Cambodians!)

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Am Di., 2. Okt. 2018 um 03:17 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
It's not always necessary or possible to interpret the language of a brand name.


+1

 

But in this case I think we can say it's clearly an English brand name.
"Spazio Italian Bistrot" isn't a real name, but a brand name, like KFC, IKEA, etc.


with the difference that it is just the name of a single restaurant in Germany and not of a worldwide operating multinational company with hundreds of shops.

 
I suspect the less-common spelling of "Bistrot" is meant to make the brand more copyright-worthy


it is the prevailing spelling in French. Being a French word I would say it is safe to assume that this part of the name is French.




The placement of the adjective "Italian" is clearly English; An Italian or French speaker would have written "Bistro Italiano" or "Bistrot Italien".

yes, it is an English adjective, something that is not completely uncommon for German and Italian business names though (it makes the place look more international).

 
So I would add "name:en=Spazio Italian Bistrot" and "brand=Spazio Italian Bistrot" if there is more than one location. 


I believe there is no doubt that "Spazio" is an italian noun, the word does not exist in either French, German or English. I would probably not add "Spazio Italian Bistrot" as an English name (at least not solely). Being in Germany and having a word used in German (Bistrot) as self-declaring feature-type I would rather see it as a German name with an anglicism in the name, or alternatively as an Italian name (Spazio and Bistrot are Italian). For me, this is a name and not a brand (may be additionally a brand, but it is clearly the name of the restaurant).
The spelling "Bistrot" is used much more often in Italy and France than "Bistro", it is used sometimes in Germany and England and it is hardly ever used in the US and the rest of the UK (according to Google trends).

 

For something like "IKEA" or "KFC", I would use "brand" as well: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:brand


yes, clearly.

Cheers,
Martin
 

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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
Am Di., 2. Okt. 2018 um 07:00 Uhr schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>:
As a real common example, you have McDonalds all (or virtually) over the world, so how does the name appear on OSM maps in non-English speaking countries?


It is not about language, it rather depends on the local script. Here you can see someone has added name:en for a McDonald's which I otherwise would not have found:

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Oops, I should have checked the map! I assumed it was in England for some reason. My internet connection is terrible and I avoid following links.

If it’s in Germany, it would be perfectly fine to use name:de=Spazio Italian Bistrot, if most local people will be pronouncing it like a German name. But it might make the most sense to just use name=* or brand=* without attempting to pick a language.

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 6:04 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am Di., 2. Okt. 2018 um 03:17 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
It's not always necessary or possible to interpret the language of a brand name.


+1

 

But in this case I think we can say it's clearly an English brand name.
"Spazio Italian Bistrot" isn't a real name, but a brand name, like KFC, IKEA, etc.


with the difference that it is just the name of a single restaurant in Germany and not of a worldwide operating multinational company with hundreds of shops.

 
I suspect the less-common spelling of "Bistrot" is meant to make the brand more copyright-worthy


it is the prevailing spelling in French. Being a French word I would say it is safe to assume that this part of the name is French.




The placement of the adjective "Italian" is clearly English; An Italian or French speaker would have written "Bistro Italiano" or "Bistrot Italien".

yes, it is an English adjective, something that is not completely uncommon for German and Italian business names though (it makes the place look more international).

 
So I would add "name:en=Spazio Italian Bistrot" and "brand=Spazio Italian Bistrot" if there is more than one location. 


I believe there is no doubt that "Spazio" is an italian noun, the word does not exist in either French, German or English. I would probably not add "Spazio Italian Bistrot" as an English name (at least not solely). Being in Germany and having a word used in German (Bistrot) as self-declaring feature-type I would rather see it as a German name with an anglicism in the name, or alternatively as an Italian name (Spazio and Bistrot are Italian). For me, this is a name and not a brand (may be additionally a brand, but it is clearly the name of the restaurant).
The spelling "Bistrot" is used much more often in Italy and France than "Bistro", it is used sometimes in Germany and England and it is hardly ever used in the US and the rest of the UK (according to Google trends).

 

For something like "IKEA" or "KFC", I would use "brand" as well: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:brand


yes, clearly.

Cheers,
Martin
 
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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
There are much better food options than McDonald’s in Thailand!
Actually I believe use the original, English brand name on the signs there. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=แมคโดนัลด์%20chang%20mai#map=19/18.78375/99.00043

Fortunately, Nominatum will find you things in Thailand even if you search in English, as long as people have added a name:en or an international name in Latin script. 
Eg name:th=แมคโดนัลด์ and name:en=McDonald’s for the examples above. The local operator=McThai ! www.mcthai.co.th :-)

Joseph

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 2:00 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 11:17, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

TL:DR - the language of a Brand names cannot always be determined (but in this case it's English).
Usualy the most common language in the region will be used for invented shop & restaurant brand names, 

That's something that I've been wondering about during this discussion of how names would appear & so on.

As a real common example, you have McDonalds all (or virtually) over the world, so how does the name appear on OSM maps in non-English speaking countries?

I know that if I use OSM from Australia & go to other countries, then their map appears in the local language. So if I go to eg Thailand or Cambodia, https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/16.810/97.405, can I still search OSM for "McDonalds", or do I have to search for some squiggly hieroglyphics? (With no offence intended to any Thais or Cambodians!)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


Am Di., 2. Okt. 2018 um 11:40 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
If it’s in Germany, it would be perfectly fine to use name:de=Spazio Italian Bistrot, if most local people will be pronouncing it like a German name. But it might make the most sense to just use name=* or brand=* without attempting to pick a language.


indeed, pronounciation is key for me, too. A navigation app which names this place should ideally pronounce it "correctly" as would a local (someone in the language that is set in the app) do. My guess is that most Germans would pronounce "spazio" with a German accent but would recognize it as an Italian word and German being here similar in pronounciation to Italian, would be easily understandable for an Italian. Most Germans  would probably try to pronounce "Italian" as English (63% declared to be able to speak English) and all but the most educationally challenged would pronounce "Bistrot" in French (which is the common pronounciation in German as well).

Cheers,
Martin



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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


Am Di., 2. Okt. 2018 um 11:54 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
There are much better food options than McDonald’s in Thailand!


Food? It could be interesting for the toilets.

Looking at Dubai, they seem to double post fast food brand names, but the place is clearly more international than the typical situation:

In Casablanca I've found pictures with only arabic script, but also others with latin script as well:
same as in Cairo:


Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
BTW, do you have an opinion about the subject of this thread?

Should the tag be default:language=* rather than language:default=*?

It will be some work to edit the proposal to change the order of the tag, but I'll be happy to do it if a few more people agree.

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:02 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


Am Di., 2. Okt. 2018 um 11:40 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
If it’s in Germany, it would be perfectly fine to use name:de=Spazio Italian Bistrot, if most local people will be pronouncing it like a German name. But it might make the most sense to just use name=* or brand=* without attempting to pick a language.


indeed, pronounciation is key for me, too. A navigation app which names this place should ideally pronounce it "correctly" as would a local (someone in the language that is set in the app) do. My guess is that most Germans would pronounce "spazio" with a German accent but would recognize it as an Italian word and German being here similar in pronounciation to Italian, would be easily understandable for an Italian. Most Germans  would probably try to pronounce "Italian" as English (63% declared to be able to speak English) and all but the most educationally challenged would pronounce "Bistrot" in French (which is the common pronounciation in German as well).

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 2. Oct 2018, at 12:09, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Should the tag be default:language=* rather than language:default=*?


it is just names, it doesn’t matter for me which one is first. Or default_language.

I’m interested in the way it works. Are there multiple values allowed? Is the order important? If yes, how to deal with rtl and ltr mixed? What are the criteria for adding it (e.g. is there a minimum percentage?)? Can we agree that this is orthogonal to official language(s)? What about locally common formats to separate different languages in (multilingual) names, shall we have a different tag for this?

A general problem with codified defaults is that potential changes in the future to the default are hard to realize, maybe for local languages this is less important though, because a change would imply other big changes (peoples moving) that the local mapping community would completely change as well.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
But what if the pronunciation of a known brand is different ?  e.g. VW
is pronounced differently in Dutch and German. IKEA is different in
Dutch and English, Opel in French and German, etc. I know that they
are brands, but do you expect those "common" names to be pronounced in
the local language of in your own language, e.g. when used in
combination with a town (as mentioned elsewhere) ?
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:02 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> Am Di., 2. Okt. 2018 um 11:40 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> If it’s in Germany, it would be perfectly fine to use name:de=Spazio Italian Bistrot, if most local people will be pronouncing it like a German name. But it might make the most sense to just use name=* or brand=* without attempting to pick a language.
>
>
>
> indeed, pronounciation is key for me, too. A navigation app which names this place should ideally pronounce it "correctly" as would a local (someone in the language that is set in the app) do. My guess is that most Germans would pronounce "spazio" with a German accent but would recognize it as an Italian word and German being here similar in pronounciation to Italian, would be easily understandable for an Italian. Most Germans  would probably try to pronounce "Italian" as English (63% declared to be able to speak English) and all but the most educationally challenged would pronounce "Bistrot" in French (which is the common pronounciation in German as well).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 8:06 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m interested in the way it works. Are there multiple values allowed?

Yes; you can use "=fr;nl" for Brussels and "=zh;zh_pinyin" for Hong Kong, because the local communities in those cities have already decided to display both languages, to represent the situation on the ground (both language formats are shown in street signs). Hopefully most communities will only need one language, but a number of places will need up to three (eg Morocco currently puts French, Berber and Arabic in all default names!)
 
Is the order important? If yes, how to deal with rtl and ltr mixed?

I don't think so; database users could interpret "fr;nl" as "put the French name first or on top", but it is up to the application / renderer. 
The idea is that the database user would look for the name:<code>=* tag (or tags) that match the <code> in the default language format tag. So in Brussels, the database application should look for name:fr=* and name:nl=*. If both are found, the database user can use both names as labels, or for audio directions, etc.  
If neither language-specific name is found, then use the default name=* tag as before. 

For Morocco, where you'll have name:fr=* and name:ara=* (French and Arabic), you can write the French name left to right, and the Arabic name right to left; no problem. (I don't know which way Berber script is written!)
 
What are the criteria for adding it (e.g. is there a minimum percentage?)?

I think there should usually be a majority, but that's up to the local community to decide. The wiki page on Multilingual Names already shows the current situation for a number of places. The same considerations that currently are used to decide what goes in the default "name=*" tag should be used to set the defaul language format. But since it won't be such an ugly hack to support more than one langauge, I think a few places may be willing to use two languages instead of just one.

So for example in Brussels you add both French and Flemish to get to a majority; this is already estabilished. 

In Wales, there would probably be some counties where English is the default langauge format, other counties where Welsh is the majority language, and maybe a few places where the local community wants to show both names? I read the long debate about this in the GB mailing list last year. A number of people disliked the idea of putting two names in the "name=*" tag, reasonably enough, but were happy to tag both name:en=* and name:cy=* (Welsh).
 
Can we agree that this is orthogonal to official language(s)?

Yes, this isn't about legislation or "official" languages, but about actually on-the-ground use. In particular, it's the dialect and script used for the names of places, streets and significant geographic features (and the names of shops / businesses to a lesser extent, though these are sometimes not in any particular language). Often this will match the officially declared language, but not always.
 
What about locally common formats to separate different languages in (multilingual) names, shall we have a different tag for this?

Sorry? Do you mean, should we have a tag that says "use a slash /" or "use a dash -" to separate two names?
 
A general problem with codified defaults is that potential changes in the future to the default are hard to realize, maybe for local languages this is less important though, because a change would imply other big changes (peoples moving) that the local mapping community would completely change as well.

I suppose it could be controversial to change the default language format tag for a particular community. But in practice, would be much easier than changing the content of every single "name=*" tag. 
 
-Joseph

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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg

On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 19:54, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are much better food options than McDonald’s in Thailand!

I'd be astounded if there weren't! - I don't even eat the stuff here :-) Just picked the name as something that's found world-wide.

Actually I believe use the original, English brand name on the signs there. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=แมคโดนัลด์%20chang%20mai#map=19/18.78375/99.00043

Fortunately, Nominatum will find you things in Thailand even if you search in English, as long as people have added a name:en or an international name in Latin script. 
Eg name:th=แมคโดนัลด์ and name:en=McDonald’s for the examples above.

OK, now I'm getting even more confused?

Macca's is marked as both name:en & name:th & shows on the map as McDonalds

But the street just above https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/77991177, hotel near by https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/301472018 & bank up above https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3416994635 are all marked as both name:en=whatever & name:th, but all display in Thai characters?

Other shops eg The Scoope https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4873971522, Burger King https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/907621996 & Plaza Hair https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3417022297 just say name= & all appear in English. Would I be right in guessing that they've been entered in English so will appear that way?


On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 19:07, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is not about language, it rather depends on the local script. Here you can see someone has added name:en for a McDonald's which I otherwise would not have found:

Similar thing - to me, Macca's appears in squiggles, despite also being listed as name:en=McDonalds, while Giordano's across the road https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4620121040 just has name=Giordano & appears in English?

Sorry about the questions :-(

Thanks

Graeme 


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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

AlaskaDave
I do quite a bit of mapping in Thailand and generally speaking, mappers in our community of OSMers don't tagThai names for brands like McDonalds, KFC, Burger King, 7-Elevens, Starbucks, and simlilar outfits. Occasionally, someone will add a name in Thai characters to one of these but the venues mostly do not display any Thai characters in their signage. I don't frequent any of them so cannot say that the menus inside use Thai or not but I doubt they do.

It has been our practice to include all three variants of the names of roads and shops, that is, name=(Thai script), name:th (also in Thai script) and name:en. The idea here was that renderers who looked for either name or name:th but not both would be able to properly display those names in the Thai language. It's redundant, I know, but that's what we've been doing. We do similar tagging for banks, fuel stations, and many other shops. Not everyone who maps in Thailand is using our guidelines so you're likely to see some variation in the resulting maps.

Not sure if I helped this thread. I haven't been following it but when I saw this post about Thailand wanted to throw in what I know.

Dave

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 10:07 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 19:54, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are much better food options than McDonald’s in Thailand!

I'd be astounded if there weren't! - I don't even eat the stuff here :-) Just picked the name as something that's found world-wide.

Actually I believe use the original, English brand name on the signs there. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=แมคโดนัลด์%20chang%20mai#map=19/18.78375/99.00043

Fortunately, Nominatum will find you things in Thailand even if you search in English, as long as people have added a name:en or an international name in Latin script. 
Eg name:th=แมคโดนัลด์ and name:en=McDonald’s for the examples above.

OK, now I'm getting even more confused?

Macca's is marked as both name:en & name:th & shows on the map as McDonalds

But the street just above https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/77991177, hotel near by https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/301472018 & bank up above https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3416994635 are all marked as both name:en=whatever & name:th, but all display in Thai characters?

Other shops eg The Scoope https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4873971522, Burger King https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/907621996 & Plaza Hair https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3417022297 just say name= & all appear in English. Would I be right in guessing that they've been entered in English so will appear that way?


On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 19:07, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is not about language, it rather depends on the local script. Here you can see someone has added name:en for a McDonald's which I otherwise would not have found:

Similar thing - to me, Macca's appears in squiggles, despite also being listed as name:en=McDonalds, while Giordano's across the road https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4620121040 just has name=Giordano & appears in English?

Sorry about the questions :-(

Thanks

Graeme 

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--
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
3. Oct 2018 05:06 by [hidden email]:
OK, now I'm getting even more confused?

Macca's is marked as both name:en & name:th & shows on the map as McDonalds

But the street just above https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/77991177, hotel near by https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/301472018 & bank up above https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3416994635 are all marked as both name:en=whatever & name:th, but all display in Thai characters?

Other shops eg The Scoope https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4873971522, Burger King https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/907621996 & Plaza Hair https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3417022297 just say name= & all appear in English. Would I be right in guessing that they've been entered in English so will appear that way?


On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 19:07, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is not about language, it rather depends on the local script. Here you can see someone has added name:en for a McDonald's which I otherwise would not have found:

Similar thing - to me, Macca's appears in squiggles, despite also being listed as name:en=McDonalds, while Giordano's across the road https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4620121040 just has name=Giordano & appears in English?


Default map style[1] on the OSM main page currently displays "name" tag.


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Standard_tile_layer


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Re: Default Language Format; language:default or default:language?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

On 2. Oct 2018, at 16:13, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 8:06 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

What are the criteria for adding it (e.g. is there a minimum percentage?)?

I think there should usually be a majority, but that's up to the local community to decide.


in multilingual regions you will typically have a majority and minorities. Aiming at the majority only would effectively result in a single name in most multilingual areas 



So for example in Brussels you add both French and Flemish to get to a majority; this is already estabilished. 


according to wikipedia, French is now the defacto language in Brussels with 90% of the population speaking it ;-) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels
this is from the german wp showing languages spoken at home: 

it is a typical situation with one majority and the other languages in minority, but significant.

There could also be situations with many languages and no clear majority of course, it wouldn’t matter if we say we put “significant” languages, according to what the locals think should go there as a default (just like the name tag). It is a delicate subject because we should strive to include minorities but also beware of trolls, and voting might not help in this context.


 
What about locally common formats to separate different languages in (multilingual) names, shall we have a different tag for this?

Sorry? Do you mean, should we have a tag that says "use a slash /" or "use a dash -" to separate two names?

yes, for example, but also in which order to put them 



I suppose it could be controversial to change the default language format tag for a particular community.


we’re not tagging communities but the situation at a given location. Communities sometimes move, our locations don’t. 

Admin boundaries will move though, so defaults moving around can occur.


But in practice, would be much easier than changing the content of every single "name=*" tag. 


it would only be easier if you didn’t check them one by one, which would be effectively the same as applying an automated edit to every single name tag in the area.

Cheers,
Martin 

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