Re: Drain vs. ditch

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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat

> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 17:06:57 +0700
> From: Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
>
>
> Sounds good, Eugene. I like those descriptions.
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 4:41 PM Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> =drain
>>> suggested: Use waterway
>>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway>=drain for artificial
>>> waterways <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Waterways>, typically
>>> lined with concrete or similar, usually used to carry water for drainage
>>> or irrigation purposes.
>>>
>>> =ditch
>>> suggested: Use waterway
>>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway>=ditch for simple
>>> narrow artificial waterways
>>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Waterways>, typically unlined,
>>> usually used to remove storm-water or similar from nearby land. Ditches
>>> are usually straight (as opposed to natural streams). They may contain
>>> little water or even be dry most of the year – to mark this intermittent
>>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:intermittent>=yes may be used.
>>>
>> I don't know if that was done on purpose of by mistake but these
>> definitions are mixed up a bit. It is ditches that are used for irrigation,
>> not drains.
>> I would suggest to define them as follows.
>>
>> canal - large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used
>> to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
>> irrigation or land drainage purposes. consider using waterway=ditch for
>> small irrigation or land drainage channels. consider using waterway=drain
>> for small lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>>
>> drain - small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete
>> or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
>> industrial discharge. consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels
>> used to drain nearby land. consider using waterway=canal for large unlined
>> land drainage channels.
>>
>> ditch - small artificial free flow unlined waterways used for irrigating
>> or draining land as well as for deviding land. consider using
>> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. consider
>> using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>>
>> No need to introduce any new tags.
>>
>> Eugene
>>
>> ср, 16 янв. 2019 г. в 05:12, Warin <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> On 16/01/19 11:53, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 10:28, Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Although the 1st definition sort of agrees with your usage, the common
>>>> definition in the U.S. is closer to the other two. There are several other
>>>> definitions given but most of them are similar to those two. So it will be
>>>> a bit confusing to use here in the U.S.
>>>>
>>> Now why does that amaze me! :-)
>>>
>>> irrigation channel: a passage
>>> <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/passage> dug
>>> <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/dug> in the
>>> ground <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/ground_1>
>>>   and used <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/used>
>>>   for bringing
>>> <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/bring> water
>>> <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/water_1> to land
>>> <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/land_1> in order
>>> <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/order_1> to make
>>> <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/make_1> plants
>>> <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/plant_1> grow
>>> <https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/grow>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> OSM gives a distinction between river and stream.
>>> There should be a similar distinction between 'drain' etc.
>>> It should not be base on the flow of water as that could be hard to
>>> determine - especially if the water is off when mapping.
>>>
>>> For example, 'a drain can be easily stepped over'?
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>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com


Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
stream?

Mark



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Re: Drain vs. ditch

Paul Allen
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 18:05, EthnicFood IsGreat <[hidden email]> wrote:

Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
stream?

Two possibilities.

1) A stream.

2) Not worth mapping.

Take your pick. :)

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat
In reply to this post by EthnicFood IsGreat

> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 15:38:13 +0300
> From: Eugene Podshivalov <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
>
>> Can you jump over a drain or ditch? I find the jump over information well
>> chosen for streams and most important property when actually walking in an
>> area and trying to find a way through.
> In the place where I live drainage ditches are 1-5 meters wide and you can
> hardly jump over them. Even if they are 1m wide you would not risk jumping
> over them because they are located in wetland and have swampy banks. They
> usually have a lot of culverts to cross them over.
>
> Somehow it is not satisfactory to distinguish irrigation from drainage for
>> lined watercourses on the main level
> You are right, irrigation ditches can be lined along their way to a field
> but when on a field they may be unlined to let water soak into the land.
> Drainage ditches are always unlined because they collect water from land.
> Drains are always lined (or should be lined on good terms) because they
> carry liquid away without letting it soak into the ground.
> If you find the above statements correct (I don't know, may be in other
> countries it works differently), then the "lined" characteristic lets you
> distingish between drainage ditches and drains easily. The only thing we
> need to resolve yet is to let irrigation ditches be linied. Here is how we
> can complement the definition of ditch to respect this.
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or
> draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined
> or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using
> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
> using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>
> PS: I'm not a native English speaker, so probably someone could formulate
> it in a more beautiful way.
>
> Cheers, Eugene
>
> [...]


I'm glad your definition does not require ditches be unlined.  In the US
we have many highway ditches that are unlined, except for the steepest
part, typically where they empty into a stream. These areas are
sometimes lined with concrete to prevent erosion. If I were to map one
of these, I would consider the whole thing a ditch.  I would not
consider part of it a "drain," simply because it's lined.

Mark


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Re: Drain vs. ditch

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by EthnicFood IsGreat
On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:05 PM EthnicFood IsGreat
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
> stream?

The Wiki says that a stream is small enough to be stepped over, but
gives no lower bound.

I can't think of many permanent watercourses around here that are
small enough to step over. Rock-hop, usually. Sometimes wade. I
personally don't switch from 'waterway=stream' to 'waterway=river'
until I'm telling myself that I might someday want to map the banks.

You can rock-hop https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/21811867291 in a
dry season if you're more coordinated than I am (I wound up with boots
full of water), but at 30 m across it's still a river. In springtime
that crossing is completely impassable.

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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat
In reply to this post by EthnicFood IsGreat

> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 18:11:20 +0000
> From: Paul Allen <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch
>
>
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 18:05, EthnicFood IsGreat <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
>> stream?
>>
>> Two possibilities.
> 1) A stream.
>
> 2) Not worth mapping.
>
> Take your pick. :)
>
> --
> Paul


Well, call it micromapping if you want, but I've mapped many of these in
the midwestern US.  I do most of my mapping in the country, and
sometimes these are the only features to map in a certain area without
the map being blank.  I have been tagging them as drains, because they
are too small to be called a stream, and they are not artificial, so
they are not ditches.  (At least in the OSM sense.)  Many of them start
out as being just a swale in a farmer's field, where they are usually
intermittent.  Many of them are named.

Mark


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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat
In reply to this post by EthnicFood IsGreat

> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 13:32:04 -0500
> From: Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:05 PM EthnicFood IsGreat
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
>> stream?
> The Wiki says that a stream is small enough to be stepped over, but
> gives no lower bound.
>
> I can't think of many permanent watercourses around here that are
> small enough to step over. Rock-hop, usually. Sometimes wade. I
> personally don't switch from 'waterway=stream' to 'waterway=river'
> until I'm telling myself that I might someday want to map the banks.
>
> You can rock-hop https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/21811867291 in a
> dry season if you're more coordinated than I am (I wound up with boots
> full of water), but at 30 m across it's still a river. In springtime
> that crossing is completely impassable.


The wiki description of a stream surprises me.  I always thought of a
stream as something too big to step over.  In the area where I live,
smaller waterways are sometimes called "ditches" (even if they're
natural), and sometimes they're called "drains."  There is even such a
thing as a "legal drain," which carries certain restrictions and
requirements.

Mark


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Re: Drain vs. ditch

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by EthnicFood IsGreat
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 21:24, EthnicFood IsGreat <[hidden email]> wrote:

  I have been tagging them as drains, because they
are too small to be called a stream, and they are not artificial, so
they are not ditches.  (At least in the OSM sense.)

In the OSM sense both ditches and drains are artificial.   You dig a ditch in the ground,
hence the term "ditch digging."   Drains are essentially ditches that are lined with concrete.

You appear to be talking about small streams.  Which are, as far as OSM is concerned, just
streams.  Using either drain or ditch for a natural stream, even a small one, is tagging for the
renderer.

--
Paul


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Re: Drain vs. ditch

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by EthnicFood IsGreat
> a stream is small enough to be stepped over

I believe the wiki says a stream is narrow enough that a health adult can JUMP over it, so about 2 meters wide or less.

There was a proposal to call smaller natural waterways “brooks” if they were small enough to step over, but this was rejected.

> I have been tagging them as drains, because they
are too small to be called a stream

I believe this is incorrect, if these are natural waterways rather than man-made drainage features.

Drains and ditches are always man-made.
On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 6:38 AM EthnicFood IsGreat <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 13:32:04 -0500
> From: Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>       <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:05 PM EthnicFood IsGreat
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
>> stream?
> The Wiki says that a stream is small enough to be stepped over, but
> gives no lower bound.
>
> I can't think of many permanent watercourses around here that are
> small enough to step over. Rock-hop, usually. Sometimes wade. I
> personally don't switch from 'waterway=stream' to 'waterway=river'
> until I'm telling myself that I might someday want to map the banks.
>
> You can rock-hop https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/21811867291 in a
> dry season if you're more coordinated than I am (I wound up with boots
> full of water), but at 30 m across it's still a river. In springtime
> that crossing is completely impassable.


The wiki description of a stream surprises me.  I always thought of a
stream as something too big to step over.  In the area where I live,
smaller waterways are sometimes called "ditches" (even if they're
natural), and sometimes they're called "drains."  There is even such a
thing as a "legal drain," which carries certain restrictions and
requirements.

Mark


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Re: Drain vs. ditch

ael-3
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 09:45:21PM +0000, Paul Allen wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 21:24, EthnicFood IsGreat <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>   I have been tagging them as drains, because they
> > are too small to be called a stream, and they are not artificial, so
> > they are not ditches.  (At least in the OSM sense.)
> >
>
> You appear to be talking about small streams.  Which are, as far as OSM is
> concerned, just
> streams.  Using either drain or ditch for a natural stream, even a small
> one, is tagging for the
> renderer.

+1  There is no lower limit on the size of a stream in British English,
although something smaller than say, I don't know, 1O cm, might be
called a "trickle" informally.


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Re: Drain vs. ditch

EthnicFood IsGreat
In reply to this post by EthnicFood IsGreat

> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 22:08:30 +0000
> From: ael <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 09:45:21PM +0000, Paul Allen wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 21:24, EthnicFood IsGreat <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>    I have been tagging them as drains, because they
>>> are too small to be called a stream, and they are not artificial, so
>>> they are not ditches.  (At least in the OSM sense.)
>>>
>> You appear to be talking about small streams.  Which are, as far as OSM is
>> concerned, just
>> streams.  Using either drain or ditch for a natural stream, even a small
>> one, is tagging for the
>> renderer.
> +1  There is no lower limit on the size of a stream in British English,
> although something smaller than say, I don't know, 1O cm, might be
> called a "trickle" informally.


Okay ael, Paul, and Joseph, it's clear I have not been applying tags
using OSM's definitions.  Sorry.

Mark



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