Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Alexander Jones
Charlotte Wolter wrote:

> Hello all,
>
>          The damage in LA is much more severe: missing segments of
> freeways, roads gone.
>          I thought the bot was supposed to be "smart" enough to
> subnstitute TIGER data when eliminating data by nonsigners. But that
> has not been done. I am finding many streets (and not ones too new to
> be in TiGER) that simply have been deleted. This is very
> disappointing and, to my mind, wrongheaded. Poorly done!
>          Why did the bot people never talk to anyone working on LA?
> That would have been important since it is an area with so much damage.
>
> --C
>
>

I completely understand your point. I, on the other hand, prefer to work
with a blank slate. I'd personally prefer an area with no streets to an area
with several broken, disconnected roads. I honestly would end up just
deleting them anyway.

Just my two Lincolns.

Alexander


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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

the Old Topo Depot
Certainly the significant data loss in areas is suboptimal, and reconstruction will take time.

It seems that significant challenges are identifying areas most impacted and prioritizing reconstruction efforts.

Toby's post yesterday using the modified live edit bot osmZmiany seems a good way to help focus on areas.  Toby, do you think it possible to serialize the state of the edits as you displayed yesterday so that they could be used as a zoomable reference to areas potentially needing review ?

I'm also wondering if a routing regression suite exists anywhere that could be used to help identify broken interstates and other major ways, as the tagging changes and 2 node bridges that were likely deleted will take time to identify.

Perhaps pages on the wiki noting reviews of interstates and mojor reconstruction of specific areas would be useful as well.

Best,


--
John Novak
585-OLD-TOPOS (585-653-8676)


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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Serge Wroclawski-2
In reply to this post by Alexander Jones
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Charlotte Wolter
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is very disappointing and, to my mind, wrongheaded. Poorly done!

When I see comments like this, I feel angry, because this bot came
from  hard working volunteers who give up their valuable time. Not
only are these particular volunteers valuable for their mapping, but
also for their tireless work dealing with the worldwide politics of
the license transition, and of the very difficult technical issues
associated with fixing an entire planet's work of OpenStreetMap data.

The redaction isn't something that was dreamed up yesterday, but
represents years of discussion, a completely open and transparent
process, and months of codification and testing.

If you had constructive input to give, there was a well documented
time and place for that, or better yet would have been an offer to
contribute working code. Comments like this do nothing to further the
discussion or make any forward progress.

If you want to fix the map using TIGER data, TIGER 2011 tiles are
provided for remapping, or, better still would be on the ground
surveying.

As for the feasibility- most nations have been mapped with no
government provided data. If most of Europe, South America, Africa,
and developing nations can manage to map without government data, I
think the citizens of the nation's second most populated city can
manage.

- Serge

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Alexander Jones
In reply to this post by Alexander Jones
Charlotte Wolter wrote:

>
>
>          Do you have any idea how big LA is? You can't just delete
> huge sections of the San Fernando Valley and start over. Start over
> from what? With no street names? That's just not feasible.
>
> --C
>

What I meant is, well... I use the awesome TIGER 2011 overlay in JOSM. I
know the Valley is different from Visalia (in the other Valley), but it's
easier for me to draw new ways than realign old ones.

If the way is reasonably correct, I'd just realign it. My strategy is
intended for ways that are horribly misaligned. Like in Visalia.

Alexander


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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Martijn van Exel-3
In reply to this post by Alexander Jones
Hi,

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Charlotte Wolter
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>         Do you have any idea how big LA is? You can't just delete huge
> sections of the San Fernando Valley and start over. Start over from what?
> With no street names? That's just not feasible.
>
> --C

This is, however, how OpenStreetMap started and operated from 2005 to
2007, when we got access to Yahoo! imagery. Before Yahoo! it was all
GPS and ground surveying. And even with access to aerial imagery, we
still need to go out there and collect street names in most parts of
the world. Here we at least have TIGER. So yes, it's feasible. It
won't be perfect overnight, but then again, it probably wasn't to
begin with.

--
martijn van exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Alexander Jones
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Charlotte Wolter <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you have any idea how big LA is?

Do you have any idea how big the rest of the world is?  It's not always about LA, sister.  Get over it and start fixing.

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Serge Wroclawski-2
In reply to this post by Serge Wroclawski-2
Charlotte,

I was hoping when I saw your mail that you would have seen the words
you used in a different light and if not be apologetic, then at least
be understanding that these words have an effect on the community, as
well as on the individuals you've insulted.

Instead, you've decided to dig in your heels and stand by your position.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Charlotte Wolter <[hidden email]> wrote:

>         First, I am among the majority of OSM members who do not program or
> write code. Yet, we also contribute, heavily. I don't think writing code
> makes one some kind of special contributor.

There are many ways of contributing to OpenStreetMap, from doing
survey work, to organizing communities, to dealing with administrative
issues, to programming the tools that are at the heart of the project,
to running the core infrastructure of the project.

Amazingly, the people behind the redaction process fit in every single
one of these categories. They've been with the project the longest,
have organized meetings, are on the OSMF board, run working groups,
and yes, they run the core infrastructure.

As for special contributors- are you saying that the people who
sacrifice their time, who work in hot, sweaty, difficult conditions,
who take time off of work and away from their families, who work at
all hours in the night and morning to keep OpenStreetMap running
deserve no recognition? Because those are the many of the people
behind the redaction process.

>         Second, I am aware that many thousands of hours of volunteeer work
> went into this. I also know that we had to do it. Still, there has been a
> great deal of damage in a major urban area.

The damage does not come from the redaction, but by the acts of those
who are not taking part in the migration. If you want to lay blame,
lay it on the right parties.

>         As for open and transparent, with that I'm not so sure. It may have
> been open and transparent if you know how to write code, but I saw little
> nontechnical discussion. Those of us who use only Potlatch were kind of on
> the sidelines.

The discussions took place for years on the Data Working Group, the
License Working Group and in the OSMF board, as well as other places.
The Working Groups are open to all, and all of the aforementioned
groups post meeting notes.

OSM was considering this transition before I even joined the project
(~4 years ago); I think ample notice has been given.

>         So, now, what can be done to fix it? Are there tools?

GPSes and walking, biking, driving. Those are our core tools. You can
then overlay your collected data on top of a map using Potlatch or
Josm and draw the streets in. This is the core OSM workflow.

>  And will they  be publicized or will we have to find out about them through side channels

You can find instructions on how to map OpenStreetMap in a variety of
forms. One of the more popular guides is the one written last year by
Kate Chapman, Ian Dees and Shaun McDonald.

http://en.flossmanuals.net/openstreetmap/index/

There's also the venerable Beginner's Guide on the OSM Wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners_Guide

In other words- the tools are to go out and map!

- Serge

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Peter Dobratz
In reply to this post by Serge Wroclawski-2
On 7/19/12, Charlotte Wolter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>          So, now, what can be done to fix it? Are there tools?

As previously mentioned, the best way is to actually visit these
places, take notes, and then use your favorite map editor to update
the map.

If you can't do that, or don't have time to do that, but want to work
on improving the map, you can still make the map better using
available information that has been approved for use in OSM.  This
technique is known as "armchair mapping."

Bing has made more easily available a lot of high quality aerial
photos of the world.  You can use these for images for drawing map
features such as roads, and also for aligning existing roads.

Once you have the roads traced in, various goverment agencies provide
public domain data that includes the road names.  The following page
shows instructions for making an overlay layer showing the names from
the TIGER 2011 dataset (public domain):

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_2011

This layer is just mostly transparent, but it shows the centerlines of
the roads from TIGER 2011 and has their abbreviated names printed next
to them.

Most of the map of the US was based on TIGER 2007, so I use this
sometimes when I notice roads on the images that aren't in the map and
I am not able to travel to the location I am looking at.

Before staring Armchair mapping, read the following disclaimer:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Armchair_mapping

Basically, aerial images can be out of date and/or mis-aligned (though
Bing is generally updated within 2 years and has decent alignment
(check other's uploaded GPS tracks)).  And check the history of what
is there in case a local mapper has made a more recent update to a
feature that might not be reflected in aerial images.  It's a good
idea to contact any local mappers before you make sweeping changes to
the area they are mapping in.

Peter

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Toby Murray-2
In reply to this post by the Old Topo Depot
And this time to the list... (cures you, lack of reply-to!)

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:16 AM, the Old Topo Depot
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Toby's post yesterday using the modified live edit bot osmZmiany seems a
> good way to help focus on areas.  Toby, do you think it possible to
> serialize the state of the edits as you displayed yesterday so that they
> could be used as a zoomable reference to areas potentially needing review ?

Ehh... not sure OSMZmiany is the best tool for this. Once you get a
lot of nodes loaded in, it takes up a few hundred MB of RAM and
performs like crap. Like 5 seconds to zoom/pan. However I do have an
idea or two to make something that would work better. I will have to
tinker with it tonight and see if it is practical.

> I'm also wondering if a routing regression suite exists anywhere that could
> be used to help identify broken interstates and other major ways, as the
> tagging changes and 2 node bridges that were likely deleted will take time
> to identify.

There was something like this back when the TIGER import was new to
help people connect major highways across county lines. Does anyone
know the technical details or if it would be practical to bring back?
It is documented here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid

Toby

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Paul Norman
> From: Toby Murray [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup
>
> And this time to the list... (cures you, lack of reply-to!)
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:16 AM, the Old Topo Depot
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Toby's post yesterday using the modified live edit bot osmZmiany seems
> > a good way to help focus on areas.  Toby, do you think it possible to
> > serialize the state of the edits as you displayed yesterday so that
> > they could be used as a zoomable reference to areas potentially
> needing review ?
>
> Ehh... not sure OSMZmiany is the best tool for this. Once you get a lot
> of nodes loaded in, it takes up a few hundred MB of RAM and performs
> like crap. Like 5 seconds to zoom/pan. However I do have an idea or two
> to make something that would work better. I will have to tinker with it
> tonight and see if it is practical.

I can build a .osc file that represents all the bot changes to a given
square (e.g. LA)
It'll take a bit of coding so I might not get it done today, but it
shouldn't be too hard.

>
> > I'm also wondering if a routing regression suite exists anywhere that
> > could be used to help identify broken interstates and other major
> > ways, as the tagging changes and 2 node bridges that were likely
> > deleted will take time to identify.
>
> There was something like this back when the TIGER import was new to help
> people connect major highways across county lines. Does anyone know the
> technical details or if it would be practical to bring back?
> It is documented here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid

I think it's practical, I've given some thought to doing this. Maybe query
one of the routing services to build it.


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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

David K

I've been having a bit of fun remapping unclean areas based on cleanmap and remapping after the bot.  It's a bit like the initial TIGER cleanup, but this time I feel extra pride at achieving even higher quality than in that effort years ago.  (More experience, better tools, more familiarity with tools, better imagery, etc)  I'll admit Columbus isn't as hard-hit as Los Angeles, but having the right attutude might help cleaning up SoCal seem less painful.  And if you could use another armchair mapper in the effort, I'll try to bring my optimism with me.

On Jul 19, 2012 9:21 PM, "Paul Norman" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> From: Toby Murray [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup
>
> And this time to the list... (cures you, lack of reply-to!)
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:16 AM, the Old Topo Depot
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Toby's post yesterday using the modified live edit bot osmZmiany seems
> > a good way to help focus on areas.  Toby, do you think it possible to
> > serialize the state of the edits as you displayed yesterday so that
> > they could be used as a zoomable reference to areas potentially
> needing review ?
>
> Ehh... not sure OSMZmiany is the best tool for this. Once you get a lot
> of nodes loaded in, it takes up a few hundred MB of RAM and performs
> like crap. Like 5 seconds to zoom/pan. However I do have an idea or two
> to make something that would work better. I will have to tinker with it
> tonight and see if it is practical.

I can build a .osc file that represents all the bot changes to a given
square (e.g. LA)
It'll take a bit of coding so I might not get it done today, but it
shouldn't be too hard.

>
> > I'm also wondering if a routing regression suite exists anywhere that
> > could be used to help identify broken interstates and other major
> > ways, as the tagging changes and 2 node bridges that were likely
> > deleted will take time to identify.
>
> There was something like this back when the TIGER import was new to help
> people connect major highways across county lines. Does anyone know the
> technical details or if it would be practical to bring back?
> It is documented here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid

I think it's practical, I've given some thought to doing this. Maybe query
one of the routing services to build it.


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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Alexander Jones
David ``Smith'' wrote:

> I've been having a bit of fun remapping unclean areas based on cleanmap
> and
> remapping after the bot.  It's a bit like the initial TIGER cleanup, but
> this time I feel extra pride at achieving even higher quality than in that
> effort years ago.  (More experience, better tools, more familiarity with
> tools, better imagery, etc)  I'll admit Columbus isn't as hard-hit as Los
> Angeles, but having the right attutude might help cleaning up SoCal seem
> less painful.  And if you could use another armchair mapper in the effort,
> I'll try to bring my optimism with me.

Count me in too!

Alexander





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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Kai Krueger
In reply to this post by Paul Norman
Paul Norman wrote
> From: Toby Murray [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup
>
>
> > I'm also wondering if a routing regression suite exists anywhere that
> > could be used to help identify broken interstates and other major
> > ways, as the tagging changes and 2 node bridges that were likely
> > deleted will take time to identify.
>
> There was something like this back when the TIGER import was new to help
> people connect major highways across county lines. Does anyone know the
> technical details or if it would be practical to bring back?
> It is documented here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid

I think it's practical, I've given some thought to doing this. Maybe query
one of the routing services to build it.
OK, I have had a first stab at it.

http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html

It is only 25 cities so far, but if it turns out to be useful it can easily be extended to more cities.

The big problem though is automatically figuring out if routes are broken or not and then colour them red or green accordingly. At the moment it doesn't do this at all.

Anyone have some good ideas for this?

The routing information is obtained from "Open Source Routing Machine", which is amazingly fast at calculating all of these long distance routes. OSRM updates its data daily, so I think the routing data is based on OSM data from yesterday. I.e. post redaction. If there is interest I could regenerate this routing grid daily too.

Kai
 
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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Martijn van Exel-3
Hey,

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Kai Krueger <[hidden email]> wrote:
[..]

> OK, I have had a first stab at it.
>
> http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html
>
> It is only 25 cities so far, but if it turns out to be useful it can easily
> be extended to more cities.
>
> The big problem though is automatically figuring out if routes are broken or
> not and then colour them red or green accordingly. At the moment it doesn't
> do this at all.
>
> Anyone have some good ideas for this?

The 'easiest' way I see is to compare those results with the same
calculation based on data from a week or a month old. Wherever the
difference in time / distance is more than a certain threshold, say 5
or 10%, the route needs to be looked at.

More elaborate method  is to look at the spatial correlation between
old and new route, and make a map showing the routes where new
diverges from old more than a certain threshold.

That said, I don't really know how ot do either offhand, but hope it
helps anyway.

Martijn

--
martijn van exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

the Old Topo Depot
I'm presuming that Kai's link is showing only current data.

So what's needed is

1.  A pre-redaction planet snapshot, loaded into a DB.
2.  An installation of the OSRM that uses 1 for its calculations
3.  Changes to Kai's work to look at both source, compute the deltas and color the results appropriately
4.  Stuff I missed...

Can we install these components on the OSM US server(s), or does anyone know if they're already available elsewhere ?
 

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Martijn van Exel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey,

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Kai Krueger <[hidden email]> wrote:
[..]
> OK, I have had a first stab at it.
>
> http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html
>
> It is only 25 cities so far, but if it turns out to be useful it can easily
> be extended to more cities.
>
> The big problem though is automatically figuring out if routes are broken or
> not and then colour them red or green accordingly. At the moment it doesn't
> do this at all.
>
> Anyone have some good ideas for this?

The 'easiest' way I see is to compare those results with the same
calculation based on data from a week or a month old. Wherever the
difference in time / distance is more than a certain threshold, say 5
or 10%, the route needs to be looked at.

More elaborate method  is to look at the spatial correlation between
old and new route, and make a map showing the routes where new
diverges from old more than a certain threshold.

That said, I don't really know how ot do either offhand, but hope it
helps anyway.

Martijn

--
martijn van exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Richard Weait
In reply to this post by Kai Krueger
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Kai Krueger <[hidden email]> wrote:
[ ... ]

> OK, I have had a first stab at it.
>
> http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html
>
> It is only 25 cities so far, but if it turns out to be useful it can easily
> be extended to more cities.
>
> The big problem though is automatically figuring out if routes are broken or
> not and then colour them red or green accordingly. At the moment it doesn't
> do this at all.
>
> Anyone have some good ideas for this?

Count the number of "turns of 45 degree heading or more"?  Check the
high-turn-count routes first?  I dunno.

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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

Kai Krueger
In reply to this post by Martijn van Exel-3
Martijn van Exel-3 wrote
>
> The big problem though is automatically figuring out if routes are broken or
> not and then colour them red or green accordingly. At the moment it doesn't
> do this at all.
>
> Anyone have some good ideas for this?

The 'easiest' way I see is to compare those results with the same
calculation based on data from a week or a month old. Wherever the
difference in time / distance is more than a certain threshold, say 5
or 10%, the route needs to be looked at.
OK, I have done something similar now, just that I used google calculated routes as a reference. Those routes that are more than 5% longer either in distance or time are flagged as red, others are green.

This isn't perfect, but at least it gives a good first indication of which routes are broken and hopefully as people continue fixing the interstate system more and more routes will turn green.

The updated version is at the same URL as before ( http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html )

Kai
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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

James Mast
Very nice Kai.  However, I'd like to suggest a few more cities that might be of use for that.
 
Pittsburgh
Cleveland
Las Vegas
Toronto, Ontario (mainly because you added Winnipeg)
 
-James
 
> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 20:28:16 -0700

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup
>
>
> Martijn van Exel-3 wrote
> >
> >>
> >> The big problem though is automatically figuring out if routes are broken
> >> or
> >> not and then colour them red or green accordingly. At the moment it
> >> doesn't
> >> do this at all.
> >>
> >> Anyone have some good ideas for this?
> >
> > The 'easiest' way I see is to compare those results with the same
> > calculation based on data from a week or a month old. Wherever the
> > difference in time / distance is more than a certain threshold, say 5
> > or 10%, the route needs to be looked at.
> >
>
> OK, I have done something similar now, just that I used google calculated
> routes as a reference. Those routes that are more than 5% longer either in
> distance or time are flagged as red, others are green.
>
> This isn't perfect, but at least it gives a good first indication of which
> routes are broken and hopefully as people continue fixing the interstate
> system more and more routes will turn green.
>
> The updated version is at the same URL as before (
> http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html )
>
> Kai
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Re-Fwd-Re-Post-bot-cleanup-tp5717310p5717675.html
> Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-us mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

the Old Topo Depot
Most Excellent, and perhaps we should move this to Toby's routing thread ;-)

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 8:37 PM, James Mast <[hidden email]> wrote:
Very nice Kai.  However, I'd like to suggest a few more cities that might be of use for that.
 
Pittsburgh
Cleveland
Las Vegas
Toronto, Ontario (mainly because you added Winnipeg)
 
-James
 
> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 20:28:16 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]

> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup
>
>
> Martijn van Exel-3 wrote
> >
> >>
> >> The big problem though is automatically figuring out if routes are broken
> >> or
> >> not and then colour them red or green accordingly. At the moment it
> >> doesn't
> >> do this at all.
> >>
> >> Anyone have some good ideas for this?
> >
> > The 'easiest' way I see is to compare those results with the same
> > calculation based on data from a week or a month old. Wherever the
> > difference in time / distance is more than a certain threshold, say 5
> > or 10%, the route needs to be looked at.
> >
>
> OK, I have done something similar now, just that I used google calculated
> routes as a reference. Those routes that are more than 5% longer either in
> distance or time are flagged as red, others are green.
>
> This isn't perfect, but at least it gives a good first indication of which
> routes are broken and hopefully as people continue fixing the interstate
> system more and more routes will turn green.
>
> The updated version is at the same URL as before (
> http://apmon.dev.openstreetmap.org/us_routing_grid.html )
>
> Kai
>
>
>
>
> --
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John Novak
585-OLD-TOPOS (585-653-8676)


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