Re: Historical rail lines (Ian Steer)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
1 message Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Historical rail lines (Ian Steer)

Ian Steer
Surely OSM isn't in the business of producing historical maps?  If so, where
do you stop (ie how old) - do the Europeans map Roman roads ?  It would be
confusing for people trying to use the maps to see a railway line marked,
with no physical evidence of its existence.

Ian

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2012 7:24 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Talk-au Digest, Vol 65, Issue 28

Send Talk-au mailing list submissions to
        [hidden email]

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
        [hidden email]

You can reach the person managing the list at
        [hidden email]

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of Talk-au digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Historical rail lines (Matt White)
   2. Re: Historical rail lines (Steve Bennett)
   3. Re: Tagging dirt and 4x4 roads - new approach (Steve Bennett)
   4. Re: Tagging dirt and 4x4 roads - new approach (David Bannon)
   5. Re: Historical rail lines (Ian Sergeant)
   6. Re: Historical rail lines (Matt White)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:15:59 +1100
From: Matt White <[hidden email]>
To: OSM Australian Talk List <[hidden email]>
Subject: [talk-au] Historical rail lines
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

A question for the list regarding historical/disused rail lines.

The old inner circle rail line in Melbourne is mapped in OSM, and I'm
unconvinced of it being a good thing. Here's a little bit of it that I can
talk about with some local knowledge of:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-37.780512&lon=144.982887&zoom=18&layers=M

Given that there is pretty much no trace of the rail line left, why are we
mapping it? It was "on the ground" 30 years ago, but it certainly isn't now.

(That said, there are some small pieces of the track remaining - where it
crosses Rae St and Brunswick St Nth, two or three 15 metre sections + a set
of points just north of the end of Birkenhead St (including what appears to
be an old rail weighbridge), and a short three metre section in Edinburgh
Gardens, and the old North Carlton station building is still there)

If there are no complaints, I'm going to remove it. It's historical, and
appears on old maps, but does not exist today.

Matt



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:29:00 +1100
From: Steve Bennett <[hidden email]>
To: Matt White <[hidden email]>
Cc: OSM Australian Talk List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Historical rail lines
Message-ID:
        <CA+z=q=ubdP81a1eLK9vSEc7pZxB7YHbH=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Matt,
  The question about mapping old, historical features is much wider than
just the Australian context. I'm pretty sure the current consensus is that
we old rail lines should be mapped - even if there is not much to see on the
ground. There might be more than you think - there's a station building (now
a community hall, I think), other things too, perhaps. There are probably
other former railways about with much less to see (the Rosstown Railway
comes to mind) - at least with this one there are physical remnants such as
tracks.

So, yes, I object. Feel free to raise the issue on the main OSM talk list
though.

Steve


On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Matt White <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A question for the list regarding historical/disused rail lines.
>
> The old inner circle rail line in Melbourne is mapped in OSM, and I'm
> unconvinced of it being a good thing. Here's a little bit of it that I
> can talk about with some local knowledge of:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?** 
> lat=-37.780512&lon=144.982887&**zoom=18&layers=M<http://www.openstreet
> map.org/?lat=-37.780512&lon=144.982887&zoom=18&layers=M>
>
> Given that there is pretty much no trace of the rail line left, why
> are we mapping it? It was "on the ground" 30 years ago, but it certainly
isn't now.

>
> (That said, there are some small pieces of the track remaining - where
> it crosses Rae St and Brunswick St Nth, two or three 15 metre sections
> + a set of points just north of the end of Birkenhead St (including
> what appears to be an old rail weighbridge), and a short three metre
> section in Edinburgh Gardens, and the old North Carlton station
> building is still there)
>
> If there are no complaints, I'm going to remove it. It's historical,
> and appears on old maps, but does not exist today.
>
> Matt
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-au<http://lists.openstr
> eetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20121125/494bb
b7f/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:35:36 +1100
From: Steve Bennett <[hidden email]>
To: Matt White <[hidden email]>
Cc: talk-au <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Tagging dirt and 4x4 roads - new approach
Message-ID:
        <CA+z=q=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>* Unpaved roads are difficult to really classify the surface in terms
>of
anything other than dirt/sand/rock. The surface state changes over time from
smooth immediately after grading, to possibly deep
>ruts/corrugations/mud after rain and wear. In this case, my personal
opinion would be to use some sort of tag like surface condition (options
being something like: maintained | uneven | degraded |
>corrugated | rocky | rutted | deep_rutted, but even those change
immediately after track maintenance), with perhaps a best/worst case tag or
similar

One thought that occurs here would be to tag the *maintenance* of a track
rather than its *current state*. Some tracks are essentially never
maintained, while others are graded frequently. That, combined with the
season that you're travelling (eg, late summer vs early spring) might be
enough to make an informed decision.



> * Overall, it seems like Australia has both the special conditions
> requiring some extensions to the current 4WD/dirt road mapping data
> and the active mapping community to back it up. I don't see why we
> shouldn' agree on a handful of tagging rules for the AU conditions on
> this list and use them (assuming that they are well thought out etc).
> Document them nicely so the rest of the world can take them up, and
> make the rendering changes etc ourselves (how hard can a casing change
> be in the renderer? If we can do it an submit it to the trac
> system...)
>
>
AFAIK the major issue with rendering changes is resources to implement them.
So, if someone writes the code to do it, much greater chance of it
happening.

Steve
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20121125/c2a8a
2a4/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:07:37 +1100
From: David Bannon <[hidden email]>
To: talk-au <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Tagging dirt and 4x4 roads - new approach
Message-ID: <1353838057.4071.47.camel@Davo-LT>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Sun, 2012-11-25 at 20:35 +1100, Steve Bennett wrote:

> One thought that occurs here would be to tag the *maintenance* of a
> track rather than its *current state*.

Yep, that would be useful info indeed. Not sure how 'collectible' it would
be though. The (dirt) road that I live on is graded reasonably frequently
but I could not tell you how many times per year or when it was last done.
And I live on that road !

 
> AFAIK the major issue with rendering changes is resources to implement
> them. So, if someone writes the code to do it, much greater chance of
> it happening.
>
Maybe, maybe not. The actual changes required are not that extensive really.
I have built a mapnik and pgsql system on my laptop using the OSM config
files. Its trivial to include new tags into the rendering database.
(Although unfortunately, "4wd_only" has some technical
issues.) Getting Mapnik to then render them is more a matter of agreeing on
how to do it than actually doing it IMHO. Sadly, our desired "dashed casing"
is already used for tunnels, but possibly a different colour will work, or
dashed infill ? But importantly, we can copy, in part, how its done for a
tunnel.

Issue really is these guys will have some pretty heavy change controls in
place. And there will be some pressure to not add anything unless its really
proved essential, every extra bit of processing slows each refresh.

So, we need a really good case rather than clever coding I'm afraid.

David








------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:28:04 +1100
From: Ian Sergeant <[hidden email]>
To: Matt White <[hidden email]>
Cc: OSM Australian Talk List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Historical rail lines
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi,

I'm pretty sure we've reached consensus in the past that if there is
absolutely no evidence of it on the ground - no tunnels - no cuttings - no
tracks.  In other words there was a railway line, but now it is a shopping
mall, then it doesn't get mapped.  We don't maintain layers of history in
OSM right now.

If there is evidence still on the ground, then we have tags for that.

What is the source for the data that is there, if there is no evidence on
the ground?  Where was it copied from?

Ian.

On 25 November 2012 17:15, Matt White <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A question for the list regarding historical/disused rail lines.
>
> The old inner circle rail line in Melbourne is mapped in OSM, and I'm
> unconvinced of it being a good thing. Here's a little bit of it that I
> can talk about with some local knowledge of:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?** 
> lat=-37.780512&lon=144.982887&**zoom=18&layers=M<http://www.openstreet
> map.org/?lat=-37.780512&lon=144.982887&zoom=18&layers=M>
>
> Given that there is pretty much no trace of the rail line left, why
> are we mapping it? It was "on the ground" 30 years ago, but it certainly
isn't now.

>
> (That said, there are some small pieces of the track remaining - where
> it crosses Rae St and Brunswick St Nth, two or three 15 metre sections
> + a set of points just north of the end of Birkenhead St (including
> what appears to be an old rail weighbridge), and a short three metre
> section in Edinburgh Gardens, and the old North Carlton station
> building is still there)
>
> If there are no complaints, I'm going to remove it. It's historical,
> and appears on old maps, but does not exist today.
>
> Matt
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-au<http://lists.openstr
> eetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20121125/66133
097/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:24:57 +1100
From: Matt White <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Historical rail lines
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Not sure of the original source - the rail line is in old Melways etc.
and in some out of copy right maps I have. The existence of the inner circle
rail line isn't really a secret.

The problem for me is that it just isn't there any more (aside from the
handful of things I mentioned below, which I agree can be kept mapped
correctly because they exist physically, but it amounts to above 100 metres
of track in a dozen small sections, plus a cutting underneath Royak parade
and an old station building that is now a community centre).

The actual align of the rail line is also out by about 30 meters at least -
it's too far south on OSM to be accurate

Just because is existed once in a time past doesn't mean we should map it.
Parts of the Deepdene rail spur still exist (some cuttings and the like),
but there's no rails, and it has been mostly built over. Ditto the Rosstown
railway <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosstown_Railway>
(Elsternwick to Oakleigh)

It's not a "disused" railway where the infrastucture is still there.
It's a bike path, the lines have been pulled up, the stations torn down, the
overhead gantry towers removed...

It's just a slippery slope... immediately north of the rail line in the link
below is Holden St. It used to have a tram line on it, with a curious little
dogleg at the end onto St Georges Road. That was also 40 years ago. There's
not much left now, but there are a few traces if you know what you are
looking for (old overhead cable mounts etc). But I hardly think it needs to
be mapped.

Matt


On 25/11/2012 9:28 PM, Ian Sergeant wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty sure we've reached consensus in the past that if there is
> absolutely no evidence of it on the ground - no tunnels - no cuttings
> - no tracks.  In other words there was a railway line, but now it is a
> shopping mall, then it doesn't get mapped.  We don't maintain layers
> of history in OSM right now.
>
> If there is evidence still on the ground, then we have tags for that.
>
> What is the source for the data that is there, if there is no evidence
> on the ground?  Where was it copied from?
>
> Ian.
>
> On 25 November 2012 17:15, Matt White <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     A question for the list regarding historical/disused rail lines.
>
>     The old inner circle rail line in Melbourne is mapped in OSM, and
>     I'm unconvinced of it being a good thing. Here's a little bit of
>     it that I can talk about with some local knowledge of:
>
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-37.780512&lon=144.982887&zoom=18&layers=M

>
>     Given that there is pretty much no trace of the rail line left,
>     why are we mapping it? It was "on the ground" 30 years ago, but it
>     certainly isn't now.
>
>     (That said, there are some small pieces of the track remaining -
>     where it crosses Rae St and Brunswick St Nth, two or three 15
>     metre sections + a set of points just north of the end of
>     Birkenhead St (including what appears to be an old rail
>     weighbridge), and a short three metre section in Edinburgh
>     Gardens, and the old North Carlton station building is still there)
>
>     If there are no complaints, I'm going to remove it. It's
>     historical, and appears on old maps, but does not exist today.
>
>     Matt
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Talk-au mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20121125/ce181
c5e/attachment.html>

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Talk-au mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au


End of Talk-au Digest, Vol 65, Issue 28
***************************************


_______________________________________________
Talk-au mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au