Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim - censorship at github pages

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Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim - censorship at github pages

Andy Townsend
On 26/03/2018 11:43, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi,
Some time ago on this mailing list I expressed concern about the way Nominatim is being maintained.

...

> My opinion meet with hostility

I've re-read https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2017-February/029683.html and https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2017-February/029684.html and I still don't see "hostility" in there.  Your message, the original of which wasn't archived by the list because it didn't contain any plain text is visible as the "replied to" text of https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2017-February/029683.html .

Silly question - if you'd like to see different functionality in Nominatim why don't you just fork it?

I'm not involved with Nominatim at all (other than as an occasional user) but I can think of plenty of occasions in the past where I've hit similar problems to you and done exactly that, such as the "switch2osm" and "zoom" branches of https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/mod_tile .  Why was that not an option for you here?

(crossposting to "talk" removed again)

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim - censorship at github pages

Christoph Hormann-2
On Monday 26 March 2018, [hidden email] wrote:
> [...] In my opinion the fact I am not
> liked by the maintainers, shouldn't result in deleting my on
> topic comments. Is there some oversight over moderation? Can I
> somehow repeal the decision? Or at least get some explanation why my
> comment was removed?

I can't comment on the comment deletion without knowing the content of
the comment in question.

But on a more general note - project maintainers on github are
autonomous in how they manage discussions and development.  
OpenStreetMap is not a centralized project and there is no overall
authority that controls software development.

So if you are dissatisfied on a fundamental level with how Nominatim (or
any other similar project) is run (you write "maintained in a way which
makes it quite impossible to contribute to") the way to go is to create
a fork or to develop an alternative from scratch according to your
ideas.  If this turns out to be better or offer advantages over
Nominatim you can try to get it integrated into the OSM website in
addition or instead of Nominatim.  This approach (having alternatives
and fostering diversity in tools and development goals) is generally
superior for innovation and progress in general compared to trying to
be universally inclusive w.r.t. feature and design ideas or
communication and cooperation styles within projects.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim - censorship at github pages

Andrew Hain
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend

The original message is archived at https://www.mail-archive.com/dev@.../msg22022.html


--

Andrew




From: Andy Townsend <[hidden email]>
Sent: 26 March 2018 12:19
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] Nominatim - censorship at github pages
 
On 26/03/2018 11:43, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi,
Some time ago on this mailing list I expressed concern about the way Nominatim is being maintained.

...

> My opinion meet with hostility

I've re-read https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2017-February/029683.html and https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2017-February/029684.html and I still don't see "hostility" in there.  Your message, the original of which wasn't archived by the list because it didn't contain any plain text is visible as the "replied to" text of https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2017-February/029683.html .

Silly question - if you'd like to see different functionality in Nominatim why don't you just fork it?

I'm not involved with Nominatim at all (other than as an occasional user) but I can think of plenty of occasions in the past where I've hit similar problems to you and done exactly that, such as the "switch2osm" and "zoom" branches of https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/mod_tile .  Why was that not an option for you here?

(crossposting to "talk" removed again)

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim - censorship at github pages

Imre Samu
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
Hi Mariusz,

> I criticized that this important service is being neglected and is maintained in a way which makes it quite impossible to contribute to. 
>... 
>Can somebody tell me why it is that?
> ...

imho:  

my favorite on this topics:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication 
and according to my experience  - moralistic judgments and diagnoses can't help solve the problems. 
on the other hand, Empathy ( for the project )  can be very powerful.

And If you want to understand the other side, read this:    "Why I didn’t fix your bug"   http://magnusmanske.de/wordpress/?p=518
so "Be nice" and give a positive surprise   ( for example add a picture of a cute animal for your issue;   example:  https://github.com/moby/moby/pull/36630 )

disclaimer:
- I have 1 accepted contributions:  https://github.com/openstreetmap/Nominatim/pull/690


Regards,
 Imre


2018-03-26 12:43 GMT+02:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
Hi,
Some time ago on this mailing list I expressed concern about the way Nominatim is being maintained. In short, I criticized that this important service is being neglected and is maintained in a way which makes it quite impossible to contribute to. My opinion meet with hostility (which I don't really mind). But what I mind is censorship. Lately somebody else noticed [1] that having pull request opened for 6 years without any explanation why it's not merged doesn't look good. I contributed to the discussion, explained the reasoning for having it opened (which was presented to me during last time I took part in discussion here). Now I look at the pull request 's discussion and turns out my comment was removed.

Can somebody tell me why it is that? In my opinion the fact I am not liked by the maintainers, shouldn't result in deleting my on topic comments. Is there some oversight over moderation? Can I somehow repeal the decision? Or at least get some explanation why my comment was removed?  


Thanks,
Mariusz

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Re: [OSM-talk] Odp: Re: Nominatim - censorship at github pages

Andy Townsend
On 29/03/2018 19:45, [hidden email] wrote:
> But in the end there are some facts and refusing to accept them
> because they weren't presented in a kind way makes people a bit
> delusional.

Hi Mariusz,

Various people have offered you advice both specifically, on how to
achieve your nominatim-specific goals ("just fork and carry on") and
more generally, on how to contribute in a way that's likely to get
results ("be nice").  Your response to this is to call people "a bit
delusional".  Now clearly you're entitled to your own set of alternative
facts and can hold whatever opinion you like about people, but what you
can't expect is that the way that you're acting here will actually
persuade anyone to your point of view.

Please take a step back, and think "what do I actually want to happen
here", and then consider whether trying to follow (for example) Imre's
advice would be better than the path you are currently taking.  If you
continue as you are you'll simply find your way into more and more
people's email filters and nothing else will happen.

Best Regards,

Andy

PS: - removed crossposting again.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Odp: Re: Nominatim - censorship at github pages

Ian Dees
Thanks Andy, this is a great spot for this thread to stop.

I'm going to moderate any further discussion on this topic.

Your friendly (dev) list moderator,
Ian

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 3:07 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 29/03/2018 19:45, [hidden email] wrote:
But in the end there are some facts and refusing to accept them because they weren't presented in a kind way makes people a bit delusional.

Hi Mariusz,

Various people have offered you advice both specifically, on how to achieve your nominatim-specific goals ("just fork and carry on") and more generally, on how to contribute in a way that's likely to get results ("be nice").  Your response to this is to call people "a bit delusional".  Now clearly you're entitled to your own set of alternative facts and can hold whatever opinion you like about people, but what you can't expect is that the way that you're acting here will actually persuade anyone to your point of view.

Please take a step back, and think "what do I actually want to happen here", and then consider whether trying to follow (for example) Imre's advice would be better than the path you are currently taking.  If you continue as you are you'll simply find your way into more and more people's email filters and nothing else will happen.

Best Regards,

Andy

PS: - removed crossposting again.


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