Re: [Openstreetmap] upload, applet

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Re: [Openstreetmap] upload, applet

Immanuel Scholz
Hi.

>From Alex on the osm mailing list (it's a discussion about the applet
drawing strange small red dots):

> The intention is that you use the red dots as a visual guide, placing
> nodes over them, wherever needed. Nodes are drawn as a black spot,
> segments (lines) are drawn between them.

Is this true? My understanding does not differentiate from a track point
and a node. Every trackpoint get importet as a node and line segments
are constructred from those nodes. Tracks are constructed from line
segments, so if the red dots mentioned are really track points (=nodes),
and are captured from a track, you should see small lines between the
red dots.


So please, tell me what's the idea of importing data:

- all the track with all segments with all points are importet directly
  as tracks, line segments and nodes.

or

- an additional data type called "trackpoint" is uploaded which has
  nothing to do with "nodes".
- User has to add nodes, segments and tracks manually via an external
  client (as in the example here: the applet).
- the "trackpoints" are only a visual guide.


Ciao, Imi.



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Re: Re: [Openstreetmap] upload, applet

Tom Carden
Immanuel Scholz wrote:
>
> - an additional data type called "trackpoint" is uploaded which has
>   nothing to do with "nodes".
> - User has to add nodes, segments and tracks manually via an external
>   client (as in the example here: the applet).

I would say "nodes, segments and streets", but yes.

> - the "trackpoints" are only a visual guide.
>

This is correct.  Raw GPS traces are too dense and too noisy to use
directly as vectors in a map, and they need some processing.
Trackpoints submitted by two different people might represent the same
road but differ significantly, so they can't be directly imported as
nodes and lines.  Currently the processing is manual tracing in the
applet, but perhaps it could be automated in software (non-trivial) or
the tracks could be pre-processed  before upload (Nick's preference I
think, and by the looks of it what your new software will do).

If your software's primary goal is to simplify GPS traces before upload,
be sure to create nodes and segments and streets using the API.
However, I would prefer that people upload their GPS logs before
processing them. If you have any bright ideas about automated processing
then you should help put those ideas into the OSM clients (or even to
run them as scripts on the database), but we shouldn't be throwing data
away (simplifying GPS logs).

But, fundamentally, yes - trackpoints are not the same as nodes.  Glad
we got that cleared up!

Tom.


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Re: Re: [Openstreetmap] upload, applet

Tom Carden
Tom Carden wrote:
> However, I would prefer that people upload their GPS logs before
> processing them.

Just to clarify this point... I mean I would prefer that we have as much
raw data as possible at our disposal, and that the job of an OSM client is
to enable the creation of map vectors and metadata from that raw data.  If
your OSM client opens a local GPX file, simplifies it and then uploads it
to OSM, without knowing what already exists as vectors on OSM and without
comparison to OSM's other GPS points and image sources, I think it isn't
really an OSM client.

Ideally, an OSM client will deal with multiple image data sources (from
arbitrary map servers, including our own), multiple points of interest
(e.g. from arbitrary geo RSS feeds, wikipedia, etc), and other stuff too
(shape files, GML, anything out of copyright).  It will also deal with
sorting and simplifying GPS track logs from multiple contributors, over a
long period of time.  No OSM client does this yet, of course.

Best,

Tom.


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Trackpoints and name conventions (was: upload, applet)

Immanuel Scholz
In reply to this post by Tom Carden
Hi,

>> - an additional data type called "trackpoint" is uploaded which has
>>   nothing to do with "nodes".
>> - User has to add nodes, segments and tracks manually via an external
>>   client (as in the example here: the applet).
>
> I would say "nodes, segments and streets", but yes.

I would like to define some name conventions. I think "street" is
misguiding, since it should also stand for "virtual tracks" like bus
routes (according to Steves plans) or route descriptions. Also, I agree
that "Track" is misguiding too, as it already managed to misguide at least
one OSM-user (me ;-).

What about
"Street" (current?)
"Track" (confusing problems with raw GPX data)
"Line"
"Road"
"Route" (beware: used in GPX with a different meaning)
"Path" (my favourite)
any other idea?

I am aware, that some of you may think this is unimportant, but I believe
an overall agreed name conses will improve usability and easiness of
different applications within OSM.



> Currently the processing is manual tracing in the applet, but perhaps it
> could be automated in software (non-trivial) or the tracks could be
> pre-processed  before upload (Nick's preference I think, and by the looks
> of it what your new software will do).

Currently, JOSM does not make any difference between track points and
waypoints, nor does my XML schema propagated. But I will think of a way to
change this to better support preprocessing of maps.


> However, I would prefer that people upload their GPS logs before
> processing them. If you have any bright ideas about automated processing
> then you should help put those ideas into the OSM clients (or even to
> run them as scripts on the database), but we shouldn't be throwing data
> away (simplifying GPS logs).

Well, I am a bit concerned about the amount of data produced by storing
raw gps logs. Are there estimations made for this?


Ciao, Imi.



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Re: Trackpoints and name conventions

frank mohr
Immanuel Scholz wrote:
> Well, I am a bit concerned about the amount of data produced by storing
> raw gps logs. Are there estimations made for this?

as an example:

my raw tracks (1520) since august 2003 have 252468 waypoints
and take 14910029 bytes (14MB) in gpstrans raw ascii format

frank


       

       
               
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Re: Re: [Openstreetmap] upload, applet

Nick Whitelegg-2
In reply to this post by Immanuel Scholz





Tom Carden <[hidden email]>@vr.ucl.ac.uk on 05/10/2005 08:54:44




>If your software's primary goal is to simplify GPS traces before upload,
>be sure to create nodes and segments and streets using the API.

This is presumably a case of exporting XML understood by OpenStreetMap and
then sending it over HTTP to the server; that's what I do at the moment.

>However, I would prefer that people upload their GPS logs before
>processing them.

Not too sure about this... when I process my GPS tracks ready for upload
(currently to Freemap, but will be OSM once the keys/values are done) I
prefer to edit them straight away to get rid of obviously dodgy points
(where the GPS lost reception for instance), and places where I diverged
from the path to look at a view, go into a pub or shop, took the wrong turn
(rare, but occasionally happens in areas I am unfamiliar with) etc... I
don't think there's any need for these sorts of divergences to ever set
foot on the server.

I also prefer to reduce the number of track points (using angle/distance
based criteria) to avoid overloading the server with too  much detail.

But it's no big deal as it doesn't really affect the software. For
instance, osm-editor can already download data from Freemap, allow the user
to edit it and then upload it again, in a simplified Subversion-like
approach of 'checking out' the data.

However, when I upload path data to OSM, expect it to be edited :-)



Nick


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Re: [Openstreetmap] upload, applet

Tom Carden
In reply to this post by Immanuel Scholz
On 10/5/05, Alex Willmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Note that the
applet (for me atleast) is sluggish, you must hover over a node for a
moment before dragging the segment, or releasing the mouse button to
complete a join.

It's pretty snappy for me on my laptop (1.6 centrino, 512Mb RAM, Windows 2000, Firefox 1.5, Sun JVM 1.5), but I realise not everyone is using a high spec machine.  There are surely some optimisations we can do, and profiling is on my list of things to do.

Can you let me know what platform you're using, and what spec of machine?  Also roughly what region you're editing? (ie a link to the edit page).

Best,

Tom.



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Re: Re: [Openstreetmap] upload, applet

Alex Willmer
> On 10/5/05, Alex Willmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Note that the
>> applet (for me atleast) is sluggish, you must hover over a node for a
>> moment before dragging the segment, or releasing the mouse button to
>> complete a join.
>
>
> It's pretty snappy for me on my laptop (1.6 centrino, 512Mb RAM, Windows
> 2000, Firefox 1.5, Sun JVM 1.5), but I realise not everyone is using a
> high
> spec machine. There are surely some optimisations we can do, and profiling
> is on my list of things to do.
>
> Can you let me know what platform you're using, and what spec of machine?
> Also roughly what region you're editing? (ie a link to the edit page).

1.4 Centrino, 768 MB RAM, Ubuntu Linux 5.04, Sun JVM 1.4.2, Firefox 1.0.x

When using the segment tool there is a small delay between the mouse
pointer hitting a node, at that node highlighting. Or having started a
segment, the translucent line follows the mouse pointer with a noticable
lag, the line appears to redraw with a rate of 1-5 fps.

Trying briefly just now on a Windows XP with JRE 1.5, the performance
feels similar.

The url of the area I'm editting is:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit/edit-map.html?lat=52.5168085733979&lon=-1.8&scale=0.000118518518518519

Regards

Alex


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