Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,

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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,

European Water Project
Dear Martin, 

Thanks for your email. 

While I understand your point of view, many are trying hard to change legislation and might see it as more than a marketing gimmick but rather a right to be able to drink without generating single-use waste. Belgium, Luxembourg,  Switzerland and Italy are not obliged to serve tap water with a meal like in France where we live. 

We are not targeting free tap water for paying customers ... but I can see value in this for those that care.  

How about  :

1) water_bottle_refill=non_paying and water_bottle_refill=customer

or

2) water_access=non_paying and water_access=customer  

Best regards,

Stuart

.  
 

> On 13. Jan 2020, at 14:07, European Water Project <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> How about free_water_refill=yes free_water_table=yes ?


free_water_refill at a restaurant or cafe
to me sounds as if you must buy water and get refills for free

Maybe we would want to distinguish getting water by yourself from an accessible tap or bottle/carafe vs. getting it from the bar staff / waiters after you asked for it?

How would we tag a place with free drinks with your meal? I’m asking because free water for customers sounds more like a marketing tale than like something we’d tag in OpenStreetMap (it’s not “free”, it’s included).


> What is the character count permissible for tags ?


maybe it’s 255 ascii characters (technically), there is no agreed limit, as short as you can while remaining easily distinguishable and no abbreviations etc.


Cheers Martin


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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:57:00 +0100 (CET)
From: Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to tag oneway restriction applying to
        pedestrians?
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


oneway:foot=-1 would still work
(Like oneway=-1 is very rarely needed 
for traffic allowed only in direction
opposite to way direction)
13 Jan 2020, 15:43 by [hidden email]:

> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 8:21 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Not very intuitive but, perhaps in rare cases, necessary.  What if the road is
>> one-way to both vehicles and pedestrians but vehicles go from A to B whilst
>> pedestrians go from B to A?
>>
>
> You beat me to it!
>
> I know I've seen a footway on the verge of the roadway signed, 'WALK
> ON LEFT, FACING TRAFFIC.' If the road was a dual-carriageway (it might
> have been, I don't recall now), then we'd have had exactly that
> situation.  "Just reverse the way" isn't a solution when it's forward
> for one mode and backward for another.
>
> --
> 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:00:18 +0100
From: European Water Project <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Message-ID:
        <CAK=tSVf65TOe818pmAdjzcHxCtr5giw68=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear Hauke,

It goes without saying that we will develop best practice instructions on
wikimedia for how to tag cafes and bars which offer free water bottle
refill for non paying customers. We will not give instructions for the
other cases as that is not our target audience.

The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is decided we
will write wiki instructions in this manner.

I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no  free_water_table=yes/no

Does anyone else prefer this nomenclature ?

Best regards,

Stuart



> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 14:26:13 +0100
> From: Hauke Stieler <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
>         restaurant
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi,
>
> > This model is used for many other tags in OSM. One of the most
> > fundamental tags, access=*, uses it to show "access only for customers"
> > for example.
> > See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dcustomers .
> > free_water=customers would not look out of place at all in that list.
>
> +1
> I think the wiki/documentation of the European Water Project should then
> describe this in a way that newbies also understand the different values
> of the tag.
>
> > The other dimension that has been mentioned, is "bring your own
> > container" vs. "we supply the container". Something like
> > "container=customer", "container=supplier" or "container=both" perhaps?
>
> Because a "container" could be anything (at a supermarket or kiosk it
> could also be a container for food), I suggest something like
> "free_water:container=*" to make clear that the container "availability"
> refers to the refill service.
>
> Hauke
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:38:12 +0900
> From: Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>         <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
>         restaurant
> Message-ID:
>         <CAP_2vPjWT-eBOMQ6DGCEF+QNeRqkU5P_XHbv9n31N=
> [hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> > I suggest something like
> "free_water:container=*" to make clear that the container "availability"
> refers to the refill service.
>
> +1
>
>
>
> -
>
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:05:08 +0100 (CET)
From: Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>
To: Tagging <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Tagging] Special traffic signs - still
        highway=traffic_signals?
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

There are some special traffic signals near me

- usually flashing yellow, that has no meaning
- turning red in case of an incoming
special vehicle

Special vehicle may be

(1) emergency vehicle leaving fire department
in this case it gets activated probably once or 
twice a day

(2) tram on a level crossing
- in peak about over every four minutes,
during day about once 15 minutes

How to tag this cases?
Like any other traffic light?
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:05:51 +0100 (CET)
From: Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Cc: Tagging <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
        restaurant
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"




13 Jan 2020, 14:04 by [hidden email]:

> Hello,
>
BTW, thanks for consulting with
us how to tag this feature!
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:06:29 +0100
From: Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to tag oneway restriction applying to
        pedestrians?
Message-ID:
        <CABPTjTA2VAXS+mVUJSoX++OWWr8=sJW0zFfBSapS7U_GNbmV=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Am Mo., 13. Jan. 2020 um 13:21 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
[hidden email]>:

> That argument isn't convincing
>
> In Openstreetmap the keys are arbitrary strings; "oneway:foot" is no
> more relate to oneway than "not_oneway" or "phoneway".
>


Technically you are correct, but there are discussions about it. Some
people would want to have a more formal "grammar" so that combining several
tags (or "conditions") gets standardized. It makes the creation of new tags
easier and can imply clear rules for data consumers. The structure was
documented in the conditional tagging proposal:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions#Tagging
but it had already been around for some time then.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,

dieterdreist
Am Mo., 13. Jan. 2020 um 17:29 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <[hidden email]>:
While I understand your point of view, many are trying hard to change legislation and might see it as more than a marketing gimmick but rather a right to be able to drink without generating single-use waste. Belgium, Luxembourg,  Switzerland and Italy are not obliged to serve tap water with a meal like in France where we live. 


from a practical point of view, living in Italy, I have not yet encountered a place that would have refused (free) tap water. Great thing about Italy is that you can get free water in many places right on the street, from drinking fountains 24/7. amenity=drinking_water is rank 5 on Italy's taginfo stats, almost double the amount of petrol stations :)

In France, drinking_water is amenity rank 23, so rightfully your government has found other ways to provide you with water ;-)

Not to get me wrong, I do agree there is benefit from political action, and there are issues related to water. What also matters is the actual price you have to pay for (bottled) water. It will always be completely unrelated to drinking water prices, but while in Italy a bottle of water is typically 1 EUR (away from airports), or 2 EUR (in the restaurant, there are exceptions), in Germany they will typically charge you 2,50 and more for just a glass of water. In Switzerland, they sell water for 5 SFR a bottle on the motorway, and 4 EUR and more is not unseen on German motorways as well. 

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by European Water Project
In GB it is the law that licensed premises provide free drinking water.

So that , means all pubs, most restaurants and some cafes.

Phil (trigpoint)


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