Re: [Tagging] [Wiki Talk] Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?

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Re: [Tagging] [Wiki Talk] Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?

SimonPoole

I'm really not sure what this discussion is doing on tagging and have
redirected follow ups to talk (it has in the matter of a few mails
already gone substantially off-topic though).

The page in question is actually a fork of
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Google_Map_Maker which was written as
a response to the introduction of MM.

I personally consider it dangerous to base such a comparison on anything
but general principles. On the one hand you are always in danger of
being out of date and at least in a legal grey zone if not already out
side of it, on the other hand it tends to degenerate in to
political/point of view material, are all commercial companies actually
evil as Xxzme version seems to imply?

Simon


Am 07.05.2015 um 03:59 schrieb jgpacker:

> I call people to review the wiki page Why OSM and not another collaborative
> mapping service?.
> link:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Why_OSM_and_not_another_collaborative_mapping_service%3F
>
> It was written by a single user as a generic page to compare other
> collaborative mapping services to OSM.
> My issue with this page is that it's not generic at all.
>
> Am I the only one that thinks this?
>
> I didn't want to bother with this until it started being recommended
> elsewhere in the wiki as official.
>
> Cheers,
> John
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Wiki-Talk-Why-OSM-and-not-another-collaborative-mapping-service-tp5843604.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

SomeoneElse-2
On 07/05/2015 12:03, Simon Poole wrote:

> I'm really not sure what this discussion is doing on tagging and have
> redirected follow ups to talk (it has in the matter of a few mails
> already gone substantially off-topic though).
>
> The page in question is actually a fork of
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Google_Map_Maker which was written as
> a response to the introduction of MM.
>
> I personally consider it dangerous to base such a comparison on anything
> but general principles. On the one hand you are always in danger of
> being out of date and at least in a legal grey zone if not already out
> side of it, on the other hand it tends to degenerate in to
> political/point of view material, are all commercial companies actually
> evil as Xxzme version seems to imply?
>

This page is an excellent example of what can go wrong with the OSM
wiki.  It's a personal POV page, written by a user with views that are,
shall we say, not shared by all, and who seems to have "issues" with any
form of collaboration (a temporary wiki ban was used before to address
some previous issues).

Where the wiki works well it's a collaborative documentation of "How We
Map"*.  It does contain some effective opinion pieces (e.g.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Duck_tagging&oldid=603101 )**
, but they are clearly labelled as such and don't attempt to misdocument
how people in OSM map things.

If "random" edits like this are allowed to continue*** it'll devalue the
wiki even more as a resource.  I'm not a wiki admin, but I'm sure that
those who are are well aware of this problem and I would hope they are
already considering what to do here.

Cheers,

Andy

PS: Although I'm a member of the DWG, this was written in an entirely
personal capacity as an ordinary mapper who tries to use the wiki for
documentation.


* incidentally that's another page that has had this user happen to it:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=How_We_Map&action=history

** yes, and that's another one:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Duck_tagging&action=history

*** https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Xxzme


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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

Richard Z.
On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 12:49:40PM +0100, SomeoneElse wrote:

> This page is an excellent example of what can go wrong with the OSM wiki.

Yet another example why the wiki needs some love.
 
> If "random" edits like this are allowed to continue*** it'll devalue the
> wiki even more as a resource.  I'm not a wiki admin, but I'm sure that those
> who are are well aware of this problem and I would hope they are already
> considering what to do here.

Random edits should be allowed. Maybe edits without summary should be
forbidden and deliberately misleading comments punished.
More people should watch new pages,
   http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:NewPages
is not exactly obvious to find. If it does not help it could be mandatory
for new pages to have some categories which would help people to watch
what they are interested in.

Do we really need
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=POI:Loblaws&redirect=no ????

One issue that I have -
   http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
displays only the changes for the last few minutes and I don't
see any setting to change that?


Richard
 

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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

Maarten Deen
On 2015-05-07 14:58, Richard Z. wrote:

> Do we really need
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=POI:Loblaws&redirect=no 
> ????

Please no. That should be discouraged.

> One issue that I have -
>    http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
> displays only the changes for the last few minutes and I don't
> see any setting to change that?

The options for that are at the start of the page (Recent changes
options). You can select to show the ast x changes in the last y days.
500 changes is the maximum you can select, but there is no stopping you
from editting the url.
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=5000>
will give you a very long list of changes.

Maarten

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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

jgpacker
In reply to this post by SomeoneElse-2
Warning: The email below is a rant. If you don't want to get stressed, don't read it.

Like SomeoneElse, I'm not too happy with the state of the wiki right now.
Right now in the wiki, there is an elephant in the room...

He is actively editing the wiki for close to an year, has strong opinions and apparently lots of free time, regularly engages in edit wars, and has an history of issues collaborating with the community (inside wiki or not).

Verdy_p and Tordanik communicate well (and I agree with them) about the latest issues on the wiki in his talk page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Xxzme#Mass_category_changes (this and the next section)

I'm sure the wiki admin (Harry Wood) is a busy person, but I would be grateful if these issues could be brought to a quicker resolution. The current circumstances have already lead a few wiki users to leave the wiki.


John
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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

brycenesbitt
There's another problem page at "OpenStreetMap is a social activity".
Sigh.  Lots of good cleanup edits.  Lots of blundering elephant edits.

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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

brycenesbitt
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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by brycenesbitt
Hi,

On 05/08/2015 08:00 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> There's another problem page at "OpenStreetMap is a social activity".
> Sigh.  Lots of good cleanup edits.  Lots of blundering elephant edits.

Yes, it doesn't feel good to point fingers at individuals but I, too,
have the impression that Xxzme's overbearing control of the Wiki is not
for the best. I seems to me that they're genuinely trying to help, and
investing quite some time, but from interactions with others I can see
that they tend to be intimidating and have a very stubborn sense of what
is right and what is wrong. The relentless renaming and re-organising of
content may feel to them like a necessary move to organize content
properly but I think these unannounced and undiscussed edits have the
potential to alienate other users of the Wiki who should have an equal
voice, but are too often harshly overruled by Xxzme.

This is compounded by Xxzme, unlike most other contributors to the Wiki,
not caring to share any personal information about them - not their real
name, not where they live or what they like. This is not a condition for
participation on a normal scale, but with Xxzme making a significant
portion of edits to the Wiki it feels like the Wiki has been taken over
by someone that nobody knows at all and who doesn't want to be known. It
doesn't really feel like a community effort.

I appreciate that Xxzme has spent a lot of time trying to make the Wiki
better and I believe they did manage to make improvements, but looking
at the complete picture I would politely ask Xxzme to find another
occupation, and stop editing on the OSM wiki altogether.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

Warin
On 9/05/2015 7:57 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 05/08/2015 08:00 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
>> There's another problem page at "OpenStreetMap is a social activity".
>> Sigh.  Lots of good cleanup edits.  Lots of blundering elephant edits.
> Yes, it doesn't feel good to point fingers at individuals but I, too,
> have the impression that Xxzme's overbearing control of the Wiki is not
> for the best. I seems to me that they're genuinely trying to help, and
> investing quite some time, but from interactions with others I can see
> that they tend to be intimidating and have a very stubborn sense of what
> is right and what is wrong. The relentless renaming and re-organising of
> content may feel to them like a necessary move to organize content
> properly but I think these unannounced and undiscussed edits have the
> potential to alienate other users of the Wiki who should have an equal
> voice, but are too often harshly overruled by Xxzme.
>
> This is compounded by Xxzme, unlike most other contributors to the Wiki,
> not caring to share any personal information about them - not their real
> name, not where they live or what they like. This is not a condition for
> participation on a normal scale, but with Xxzme making a significant
> portion of edits to the Wiki it feels like the Wiki has been taken over
> by someone that nobody knows at all and who doesn't want to be known.

There is no requirement for personal details of a contributor to be know/public.
And there should be no requirement for this!!! And it is not the problem.


>   It
> doesn't really feel like a community effort.

I think that is the core problem. My small edits of the wiki I hope have been beneficial for all ...
There needs to be more 'meeting in the middle' rather than 'my way' or 'no way'?
Personal dominance will only last some decades .. in the longer term a community will overcome.
Thus it is better to persuade a community to 'good' ideas rather than beat them over the head.

>
> I appreciate that Xxzme has spent a lot of time trying to make the Wiki
> better and I believe they did manage to make improvements, but looking
> at the complete picture I would politely ask Xxzme to find another
> occupation, and stop editing on the OSM wiki altogether.
>
This community would loose possibly valuable contributions from him if this were to occur.

A better outcome would be a more conciliatory attitude? How to get that is difficult.


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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

jgpacker
This community would loose possibly valuable contributions from him if this were to occur.
But at the same time, other wiki editors are leaving because of their stressful time in the wiki (I know at least two... it's not an exaggeration).

A better outcome would be a more conciliatory attitude? How to get that is difficult.
As a wiki editor accompanying the situation since the start (over half a year ago), I can tell you: we try (for more info, see his talk page).
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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

brycenesbitt
In reply to this post by Warin
If you look at the edit history, there's evidence of more than one user ID showing a supporting pattern of edits.  This too is concerning.
--
The irony is a non-social editor creating a page about "OpenStreetMap is a social activity".

At this point it's an edit war, one that user Xxzme seems to intend to win.

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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

Pmailkeey .
In reply to this post by Warin


On 8 May 2015 at 23:27, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 9/05/2015 7:57 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
Hi,

I appreciate that Xxzme has spent a lot of time trying to make the Wiki
better and I believe they did manage to make improvements, but looking
at the complete picture I would politely ask Xxzme to find another
occupation, and stop editing on the OSM wiki altogether.

This community would loose possibly valuable contributions from him if this were to occur.

A better outcome would be a more conciliatory attitude? How to get that is difficult.



+1

There's not an easy answer - any restraint on enthusiasm can have a detrimental effect. Guidance is the best way forward. 

--
Mike.
@millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via the area's premier website - 

currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & pets


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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Warin
Hi,

On 05/09/2015 12:27 AM, Warin wrote:
>> This is compounded by Xxzme, unlike most other contributors to the Wiki,
>> not caring to share any personal information about them - not their real
>> name, not where they live or what they like. This is not a condition for
>> participation on a normal scale, but with Xxzme making a significant
>> portion of edits to the Wiki it feels like the Wiki has been taken over
>> by someone that nobody knows at all and who doesn't want to be known.

> There is no requirement for personal details of a contributor to be
> know/public.
> And there should be no requirement for this!!! And it is not the problem.

I think that interacting with so many members of the community on such a
scale as Xxzme does is at least *difficult* and prone to more friction
if all you're willing to give away is a user name. It's harder to be
part of a community that way.

>> I appreciate that Xxzme has spent a lot of time trying to make the Wiki
>> better and I believe they did manage to make improvements, but looking
>> at the complete picture I would politely ask Xxzme to find another
>> occupation, and stop editing on the OSM wiki altogether.

> This community would loose possibly valuable contributions from him if
> this were to occur.
> A better outcome would be a more conciliatory attitude? How to get that
> is difficult.

Yes, as far as I can see many people have tried to influence Xxzme's
behaviour over the last half year and none have succeeded; as things are
my impression is we have a choice of accepting them like they are or
asking them to leave. Yes it would be desirable to keep their good edits
and drop only the controversial ones, and somehow convince them to
respect other voices, but short of a miracle I don't see that happening.
And if I balance the positive and negative things they do, at least in
my opinion the negatives outweigh the positives.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

brycenesbitt
On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think that interacting with so many members of the community on such a
scale as Xxzme does is at least *difficult* and prone to more friction
if all you're willing to give away is a user name. It's harder to be
part of a community that way.

It is very difficult to make large scale edits without friction.  It is difficult to make valuable cleanup efforts, 
in part because even an overwhelmingly positive effort can be objected to by one loud person.  This
applies to wiki, tag cleanup and more.

That said Xxzme does not appear to try to work in community at all.

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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

Christoph Hormann
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On Saturday 09 May 2015, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> Yes, as far as I can see many people have tried to influence Xxzme's
> behaviour over the last half year and none have succeeded; as things
> are my impression is we have a choice of accepting them like they are
> or asking them to leave. Yes it would be desirable to keep their good
> edits and drop only the controversial ones, and somehow convince them
> to respect other voices, but short of a miracle I don't see that
> happening. And if I balance the positive and negative things they do,
> at least in my opinion the negatives outweigh the positives.

That mostly also summarizes my view of the matter.  I have looked at
quite a few of Xxzme's edits and interactions with others and had the
experience of such interaction myself [1].  There seems to be an
intelligent person behind this (or several - that is not really clear
to me) with - despite deficits in English language - significant
rhetorical skills.  But there clearly is no willingness or ability to
use these qualifications to the benefit of the OSM community.

The problem is not exclusively Xxzme's attitude but also the combination
with the dominance of his/her/their edits due to the large amount of
energy and time spent.  This is also emphasized by the fact that normal
community activity on the wiki is relatively low these days compared to
the volume of work that exists there - in other words: much of the wiki
is undermaintained by the community.  This gives someone like Xxzme a
lot of room - both to the good and the bad.

You could of course argue that this is not Xxzme's fault - however i
also think that from someone dominanting the editing activities to this
extent you can expect basic social skills and the ability to interact
on a basic social level with others - even if we do not require this
equally from others who do only make the occasional change.

If there are examples of Xxzme productively interacting with the
community this would be good to see, otherwise i strongly concur that
the current situation is not working out for the vast majority of wiki
contributors and a significant and sustained change to that is required
to keep the wiki a place where OSM community members feel welcome.

Maybe the whole issue could serve as an incentive for the OSM community,
esp. mappers, to get more involved in what is ultimately their wiki.  
And the troubles caused by Xxzme might make those very active on the
wiki and sometimes overly protective of the current state appreciate
contributions from newbies even if they are sometimes clumsy as long as
they come with the willingness to listen to and interact with others.

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Environment

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

Tordanik
On 09.05.2015 10:08, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> The problem is not exclusively Xxzme's attitude but also the combination
> with the dominance of his/her/their edits due to the large amount of
> energy and time spent.

I fully agree with that. Xxzme is not the first wiki user who has tried
to push through unpopular edits or who has engaged in edit wars, but
they are doing so at an unprecedented scale.

For a long time, I have tried to encourage them to improve their
behaviour, to give reasons for their changes, to respond to criticism,
to take care not to break links and to seek feedback before engaging in
huge edits across the wiki, but it simply doesn't work. Following their
own vision of "cleaning up" the wiki seems to trump everything else.

Considering the countless hours spent on dealing with them, and the loss
of valuable wiki contributors, their presence on the wiki is a net
negative. Unfortunately, the warning shot (i.e. the 1 month ban) didn't
really improve the situation, except giving everyone else a much-needed
breather.

Tobias

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Re: Problems with the wiki (was "Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?")

brycenesbitt
The wiki's decreasing level of edit energy, combined with it's
increasing reach is a problem.
Wiki text now appears directly in dozens of automated editing and QA tools.

With JOSM style presets, there's a filter between activity on the wiki
and what gets wider coverage.
With iD style automatic import, the wiki becomes the documentation.

That combined with a rouge user driving others away from the wiki
really sets up a bad situation.

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