Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

Andy Townsend
On 19/03/2017 12:52, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> On 18 March 2017 at 18:52, Brian Prangle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm off for a break and I'm leaving a couple of key imports partially
>> complete so I thought it best to give you an update of where I'm at:
> I'm told that Brian has been blocked for these edits This is
> outrageous.

No, he was sent this message:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1271

because it appeared that the link between changeset discussions and his
email inbox was broken.

> There is clearly consensus for them in the local mapping
> community, and a well-defined and transparent plan for the process has
> been published.

That was one of the questions asked in changeset discussions - can you
please link to where the "well-defined and transparent plan" for the
"trees" import was published, and where discussion took place?

> A well-respected member of the community should not be treated this way.

No-one doubts that Brian is well-respected member of the OSM community -
few if any have put in as much effort as him over the years.  
Unfortunately even well-respected community members can have email
filters go rogue on them - it's not the first time that it's happened
and I'm sure it won't be the last  :)

Best Regards,

Andy

(cc:ing talk@ because I know there's been discussion, including on IRC,
outside the West Mids about the trees import and as similar sort of
council work is being outsourced elsewhere, it's useful to discuss it
more widely).




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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

Rob Nickerson
Hi,

This was discussed at our monthly meeting, it was then shared to the appropriate local list [1] and a post about quality to Mappa Mercia blog [2].

Brian has also been meeting with the data suppliers on a regular basis (at times spending an hour a week with them) helping to develop a strategy. Expert advise was also sought on the tree data.

So we have a data process that is supported by the local community, shared publicly and covers a very small region. Our community is also well established (10 years) and experienced to make these decisions.

My view is that appropriate steps have been taken. Anything more would have been disproportionate any suggests a desire to have OSM centrally run (which as we know is unrealistic).

Best,
Rob




On 19 Mar 2017 1:14 p.m., "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 19/03/2017 12:52, Andy Mabbett wrote:
On 18 March 2017 at 18:52, Brian Prangle <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm off for a break and I'm leaving a couple of key imports partially
complete so I thought it best to give you an update of where I'm at:
I'm told that Brian has been blocked for these edits This is
outrageous.

No, he was sent this message:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1271

because it appeared that the link between changeset discussions and his email inbox was broken.

There is clearly consensus for them in the local mapping
community, and a well-defined and transparent plan for the process has
been published.

That was one of the questions asked in changeset discussions - can you please link to where the "well-defined and transparent plan" for the "trees" import was published, and where discussion took place?

A well-respected member of the community should not be treated this way.

No-one doubts that Brian is well-respected member of the OSM community - few if any have put in as much effort as him over the years.  Unfortunately even well-respected community members can have email filters go rogue on them - it's not the first time that it's happened and I'm sure it won't be the last  :)

Best Regards,

Andy

(cc:ing talk@ because I know there's been discussion, including on IRC, outside the West Mids about the trees import and as similar sort of council work is being outsourced elsewhere, it's useful to discuss it more widely).




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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

Chris Hill-6

The problem with this is there are import guidelines which have been completely ignored. Was there an email and discussion in the Imports mailing list? Was there a wiki page to record and share the process? How were the tags chosen? What steps were taken to check the accuracy of the data supplied? Why was the import data not merged with existing data (that was just deleted). Why was the data imported with a regular user id not one created for the import process? The imported data doesn't align with the existing data - what's going to be done about that?

These are just the points I can see, before a broader discussion has started.

Why do you believe that this is only a matter for the West Midland group to discuss? This sets a precedent for any other area to use. If this had been done properly this could have become the go to example of how to use local authority data, as it is it is a great example of how not to do it.

I am disillusioned that the newly formed OSMUK has a director that just ignores the good practice set up across the world. Are the aims of OSMUK to just hack off the rest of the UK mappers?

The problem is, I don't expect that anything will change. There may be some bluster, some indignant emails hurled around but these imports won't be reverted as they should be and the precedent will remain. What a mess.

-- 
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
On 19/03/2017 14:03, Rob Nickerson wrote:
Hi,

This was discussed at our monthly meeting, it was then shared to the appropriate local list [1] and a post about quality to Mappa Mercia blog [2].

Brian has also been meeting with the data suppliers on a regular basis (at times spending an hour a week with them) helping to develop a strategy. Expert advise was also sought on the tree data.

So we have a data process that is supported by the local community, shared publicly and covers a very small region. Our community is also well established (10 years) and experienced to make these decisions.

My view is that appropriate steps have been taken. Anything more would have been disproportionate any suggests a desire to have OSM centrally run (which as we know is unrealistic).

Best,
Rob




On 19 Mar 2017 1:14 p.m., "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 19/03/2017 12:52, Andy Mabbett wrote:
On 18 March 2017 at 18:52, Brian Prangle <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm off for a break and I'm leaving a couple of key imports partially
complete so I thought it best to give you an update of where I'm at:
I'm told that Brian has been blocked for these edits This is
outrageous.

No, he was sent this message:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1271

because it appeared that the link between changeset discussions and his email inbox was broken.

There is clearly consensus for them in the local mapping
community, and a well-defined and transparent plan for the process has
been published.

That was one of the questions asked in changeset discussions - can you please link to where the "well-defined and transparent plan" for the "trees" import was published, and where discussion took place?

A well-respected member of the community should not be treated this way.

No-one doubts that Brian is well-respected member of the OSM community - few if any have put in as much effort as him over the years.  Unfortunately even well-respected community members can have email filters go rogue on them - it's not the first time that it's happened and I'm sure it won't be the last  :)

Best Regards,

Andy

(cc:ing talk@ because I know there's been discussion, including on IRC, outside the West Mids about the trees import and as similar sort of council work is being outsourced elsewhere, it's useful to discuss it more widely).




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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

Andy Mabbett
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
"On 19 March 2017 at 13:13, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 19/03/2017 12:52, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>> I'm told that Brian has been blocked for these edits This is
>> outrageous.

> No, he was sent this message:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1271

Which opens with the words "brianboru blocked by SomeoneElse"

>> There is clearly consensus for them in the local mapping
>> community, and a well-defined and transparent plan for the process has
>> been published.

> That was one of the questions asked in changeset discussions - can you
> please link to where the "well-defined and transparent plan" for the "trees"
> import was published, and where discussion took place?

On the mailing list where I posted, for one.

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Import Progress

Rob Nickerson
In reply to this post by Rob Nickerson
Hi Chris,

I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a locally supported project.

Mailing list posts drift off topic way too easily any it's never clear when "consensus" is found. Richard F did the right thing in 2013 when he quit them and I encourage others to do the same

Few people replied to Brian's messages on the local list as we had already discussed and agreed it. Thus for every negative email there are usually many people who support it but just don't post.

Far from a bad import i think this is a great example to hold up as a good case study. Who else would spend an hour a week in the data providers office discussing not just the current data but methodologies for keeping it up to date.

The new and old data is being consolidated as Brian mentioned in his post yesterday. Everything is in hand, so no need to worry.

We are making huge strives forwards in the West Midlands and I'm looking forward to Open Data becoming the norm as a result of Brian's hard work.

Rob

P.s. this is being done by the local community not OSM UK which is still working up it's first project. As a fellow Director however I fully support Brian. I'm glad we have set up OSM UK and I hope it can get involved in similar projects where it is provided the devolved powers it needs to cater for it's community rather than leaving those decisions to an unclear "central power" that goes round in circles effectively preventing any new ideas seeing the light of day.

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Re: Import Progress

Chris Hill-6

So you decided that the Imports mailing list isn't useful and is too 20th Century for you.

Don't you see how arrogant and disconnected you sound?

An hour a week was spent in the provider's office, but not once was the process required by OSM to do imports mentioned?

It may have been done by WM team, but clearly at least two directors of OSMUK support this flawed process.

I repeat: What a Mess.

Chris.
P.S. telling me not to worry is horribly patronising Rob, please don't do it.

On 19/03/2017 15:04, Rob Nickerson wrote:
Hi Chris,

I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a locally supported project.

Mailing list posts drift off topic way too easily any it's never clear when "consensus" is found. Richard F did the right thing in 2013 when he quit them and I encourage others to do the same

Few people replied to Brian's messages on the local list as we had already discussed and agreed it. Thus for every negative email there are usually many people who support it but just don't post.

Far from a bad import i think this is a great example to hold up as a good case study. Who else would spend an hour a week in the data providers office discussing not just the current data but methodologies for keeping it up to date.

The new and old data is being consolidated as Brian mentioned in his post yesterday. Everything is in hand, so no need to worry.

We are making huge strives forwards in the West Midlands and I'm looking forward to Open Data becoming the norm as a result of Brian's hard work.

Rob

P.s. this is being done by the local community not OSM UK which is still working up it's first project. As a fellow Director however I fully support Brian. I'm glad we have set up OSM UK and I hope it can get involved in similar projects where it is provided the devolved powers it needs to cater for it's community rather than leaving those decisions to an unclear "central power" that goes round in circles effectively preventing any new ideas seeing the light of day.


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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
Like all good OSM activity, discussion occurred in the pub. We may or may not have got our knickers in a twist when we did but usually we get the things sorted out. The Naptan and tree updates were discussed at length within our small west mids group and I was (and am) happy to support. Brian has been doing a fantastic job working with local groups who have data and the last thing I would want to see is his efforts squashed. It's quite possible that some of what gets added is crap and its also possible we have some inappropriate tags, but let us get the stuff into OSM and we can sort it out where it's not perfect. As a local group we generally know what we are doing, we've been doing it now for over 10 years!

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 19 March 2017 13:13
To: [hidden email]
Cc: talk-gb OSM List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

On 19/03/2017 12:52, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> On 18 March 2017 at 18:52, Brian Prangle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm off for a break and I'm leaving a couple of key imports partially
>> complete so I thought it best to give you an update of where I'm at:
> I'm told that Brian has been blocked for these edits This is
> outrageous.

No, he was sent this message:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1271

because it appeared that the link between changeset discussions and his email inbox was broken.

> There is clearly consensus for them in the local mapping community,
> and a well-defined and transparent plan for the process has been
> published.

That was one of the questions asked in changeset discussions - can you please link to where the "well-defined and transparent plan" for the "trees" import was published, and where discussion took place?

> A well-respected member of the community should not be treated this way.

No-one doubts that Brian is well-respected member of the OSM community - few if any have put in as much effort as him over the years.  
Unfortunately even well-respected community members can have email filters go rogue on them - it's not the first time that it's happened and I'm sure it won't be the last  :)

Best Regards,

Andy

(cc:ing talk@ because I know there's been discussion, including on IRC, outside the West Mids about the trees import and as similar sort of council work is being outsourced elsewhere, it's useful to discuss it more widely).




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Re: Import Progress

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Rob Nickerson
Rob,

On 03/19/2017 04:04 PM, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I
> don't see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an
> arcane 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to
> derail a locally supported project.

Please consider whether your words might offend those who think
differently about mailing lists.

The imports mailing list is *the* place in the project where you can get
a lot of eyeballs helping you iron out problems. That's why we generally
ask for imports to be discussed there before they happen; a large number
of problems have been fixed before, instead of after, an import that way.

A comment that points out a problem with an import might be perceived as
"negative" but that's very short-sighted; even if it halts an import for
a while by pointing out an issue, it is quite likely that the overall
result of that "negatice" comment will be a better import (or a
non-execution of a bad import).

The West Midlands community is one of the oldest and most active local
communities we have in OSM. It would be great if that exposed situation
would make them lead by example, rather than assume that everyone else's
rules don't apply to them.

The question whether a truly local import needs (potentially
international) discussion pops up often, and in many cases it might be
unnecessary - but for every well-executed import by an experienced local
community there's also a botched one by an inexperienced local community
who were just as sure of themselves as the experienced one.

Your idea of local empowerment sounds nice but I don't think it can be
used as a general principle which I would like to illustrate by
stretching that line of thought to the farcial extreme:

"Our local community wants to get rid of black people. When we discussed
this with other people outside of our local community, we were met with
a lot of negativity. We would prefer if those communities who do not
want to get rid of black people would focus their energy on something
positive to them, while we help other communities who also want to get
rid of black people."

With that I want to say that you cannot be constructive and positive
about everything; sometimes someone will want to do something where it
is actually good that they have to listen to those who say no, and
cozying up in your own little bubble without any negatvitiy can feel
nice to you but be bad for the world.

We need to strike a balance here, but "every local community can simply
import whatever they want and it is none of the rest of the project's
business" is certainly not that balance (unless the local community runs
their own database and their own API).

Something we also ask all mappers to do, and again something where I'd
love to see West Mids team lead by example, is to reply to public
changeset comments and not ignore them, for example here:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46819034

> Few people replied to Brian's messages on the local list as we had
> already discussed and agreed it.

It occurs to me that the changeset comment I linked above points out a
few potential issues that a wider discussion could have unearthed before
the import happened!

> Far from a bad import i think this is a great example to hold up as a
> good case study.

I think you might be getting carried away here. The changeset comment I
linked mentions the following issues:

* usual import guidelines not followed - as I explained above, while it
is debatable whether they must always apply to local imports, a "great
example to hold up" would certainly include that.

* just looking at the first tree in this changeset
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4732520560 there's a bunch of
duplicate information on it (site name, ward etc.) and the species info
might have been better placed as "genus"

* https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.44699/-1.84369 shows an
offset between tree data and other data; has this been discussed?

* unclear plan for keeping imported data up to date

Now these issues don't put the import in the class of "bad imports that
warrant an immediate revert", but they are not issues I would like to
see in an import hailed as an example to be followed by others.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Import Progress

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Rob Nickerson
Rob Nickerson wrote:
> Mailing list posts drift off topic way too easily any it's never clear
> when "consensus" is found. Richard F did the right thing in 2013
> when he quit them and I encourage others to do the same

However, just because I no longer spend my time batting back and forth to every post on the lists, that does not mean I have the right to ignore the same community guidelines which everyone else follows.

OSM is a community project, not a technical project. It works when people respect each other, rather than believing they know best.

The import process is a way of making sure that the community is respected. You can summarise it in six words: "with great power comes great responsibility". That is, if you are proposing to make bulk changes to the map, you have to make sure the community comes along with you. You cannot just short-circuit this because you personally don't like some technology or other.

If OSM-UK is to be led by people who openly display such disdain for the OSM community, I want no part of it.

Richard
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Re: Import Progress

Dave F
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm

On 19/03/2017 19:36, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> It would be great if that exposed situation
> would make them lead by example, rather than assume that everyone else's
> rules don't apply to them.
Yes. I've noticed a couple of 'we know best' & 'this is a local
community for local people' style comments.
OSM is a global endeavour. Although the import rules appear a bit
strict, I think contributors should reach out instead of navel gazing.

A "case study" is for assessing flaws as well as any good points.

DaveF

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Re: Import Progress

Andy Mabbett
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On 19 March 2017 at 19:36, Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Please consider whether your words might offend

...and the goes on to equate a disagreement over import procedures to
racist ethnic cleansing.

That's *really* unacceptable.

Who moderates this mailing list?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Import Progress

Matthijs Melissen
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
On 19 March 2017 at 20:55, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
> However, just because I no longer spend my time batting back and forth to
> every post on the lists, that does not mean I have the right to ignore the
> same community guidelines which everyone else follows.

Can you show where you have sought community support when making the
following change to the Import Guidelines?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Import/Guidelines&diff=702968&oldid=687101

Or is your post simply a request for all people to follow *your* rules?

-- Matthijs

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Re: Import Progress

Richard Fairhurst
On 19/03/2017 21:29, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Or is your post simply a request for all people to follow *your* rules?

Wow. Stay classy.

I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to reply to that, but there's an
extensive debate about that sentence in the mailing list archives a
propos of the French cadastre data.

Richard

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Re: Import Progress

Andy Allan
In reply to this post by Rob Nickerson
On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't
> see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane
> 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a
> locally supported project.

We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and
battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have
chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could
have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever
you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been
reached.

However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things
you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of
our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply
saddened by the attitude.

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: Import Progress

Dan S
2017-03-20 12:17 GMT+00:00 Andy Allan <[hidden email]>:

> On 19 March 2017 at 15:04, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I don't think any of us are members of the import mailing list and I don't
>> see the point of joining any more mailing lists. They represent an arcane
>> 20th century solution that allows a few negative comments to derail a
>> locally supported project.
>
> We have our import guidelines which have been long-discussed and
> battle-tested over many years. They aren't perfect. You could have
> chosen to improve the guidelines, or improve the process. You could
> have sought alternatives to mailing lists or wiki pages or whatever
> you object to, and use such alternatives when agreement has been
> reached.
>
> However, ignoring the whole process and running rough-shod over things
> you dislike shows the complete contempt that you hold for the rest of
> our community. I care little about these imports but I am deeply
> saddened by the attitude.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy

I'm nervous of joining this painful thread, in which so many people
have said things I object to - but I'm concerned. So I'll try to be
minimalist: I concur with the perspectives given by Andy Allen and
Richard Fairhurst.

Best
Dan

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Re: Import Progress

Walter Nordmann
Hi,


Am 20.03.2017 um 15:46 schrieb Dan S:
> I concur with the perspectives given by Andy Allen and
> Richard Fairhurst.
total agree.

walter

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Re: Import Progress

Andy Allan
In reply to this post by Andy Allan
On 20 March 2017 at 12:34, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've no idea why Brian didn't follow the rules. I expect he probably didn't
> know about them.

I have emails from Brian discussing imports as far back as 2009. I
find it unlikely that with 8 years of experience he could be
completely unaware of the import guidelines.

> Let's step back, allow for this data to be completed (else it will be in a
> worse case) and find a sensible way forward for the guidelines when we have
> time to think with a fresh mind.

I feel this is a politely phrased way of saying "we will continue to
ignore everyone and carry on what we're doing already".

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: Import Progress

Neil Matthews
On 21/03/2017 11:20, Andy Allan wrote (more than this):

> I feel this is a politely phrased way of saying "we will continue to
> ignore everyone and carry on what we're doing already".
>
> Thanks,
> Andy

My take from previous mails is that all you need to do to import data
now is go to the pub and discuss it with local regularly active mappers.
For some values of local/regular/active (possibly even at a county-wide
level) this just might involve me mumbling to myself in the corner of my
local -- and bingo I've met the requirements.

I think it's a bad precedent to set.

A (non-)apology that "other mappers' expectations haven't been met", and
some retrospective mailing list notification, etc. is probably the
safest way to go without opening the floodgates to future arbitrary imports.

Cheers,
Neil


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Re: Import Progress

Gregory-2
I've been roughly following this thread, and feel I should add some balance.

As a director of OpenStreetMap UK,
If you have a point/discussion to make on that organisation or the collective of OSMers in the UK, please make another thread for it. Someone said it's not a good way to treat a respected/dedicated member of the community, and that may be right, in the same way some comments haven't been a good way to treat a new member of the community who hasn't any knowledge of import attitudes.

As an individual,
I've not been to West Midlands pub meetups but had heard on some list about the NaPTAN update-import. I feel that a well-accepted import needs slightly-less process followed before an update, but it's still good to do some. As for the tree import, I've only heard in passing in chats. It would be important for that to go through the full import guidelines.

Neil, thanks for offering a next steps suggestion to keep this moving on..,
A (non-)apology that "other mappers' expectations haven't been met", and some retrospective mailing list notification, etc. is probably the safest way to go without opening the floodgates to future arbitrary imports.

I'm sure Brian understands the importance of keeping the community aware. It's difficult because it's such a big community with so many mediums. People who dislike the mailing lists are often good at informing the other mediums, but that's no reason for mailing lists to be completely ignored, especially as they can form a more permanent record of announcements. The import mailing list tends to have less of the negative comments/arguments people have come to associate with OSM mailing lists. I usually glance over it very briefly as most imports don't geographically-concern or subject-interest me.

Besides notification, shall we now focus on actual concerns/comments on the imports taking place?

From the North East,
Gregory.

On 21 March 2017 at 22:01, Neil Matthews <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 21/03/2017 11:20, Andy Allan wrote (more than this):

I feel this is a politely phrased way of saying "we will continue to
ignore everyone and carry on what we're doing already".

Thanks,
Andy

My take from previous mails is that all you need to do to import data now is go to the pub and discuss it with local regularly active mappers.
For some values of local/regular/active (possibly even at a county-wide level) this just might involve me mumbling to myself in the corner of my local -- and bingo I've met the requirements.

I think it's a bad precedent to set.

A (non-)apology that "other mappers' expectations haven't been met", and some retrospective mailing list notification, etc. is probably the safest way to go without opening the floodgates to future arbitrary imports.

Cheers,
Neil



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Re: Import Progress

Andy Allan
On 22 March 2017 at 09:24, Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Besides notification, shall we now focus on actual concerns/comments on the
> imports taking place?

Please bear in mind that contacting the mailing lists isn't just for
the purposes of "notification", but is also supposed to be a mechanism
by which the importers seek guidance and outside expertise. Most
people running an import have far less experience in doing so than the
collective wisdom of the imports mailing list, for example. Or an
expert in imports will have less experience in tagging tree species
than the collective wisdom of the talk-gb mailing list, to give
another example.

So let's not make the false step of seeing this part of the guidelines
as just some "tick-box notification".

I would encourage that, rather than putting the burden on outsiders to
chip in with their opinions here, that instead the people who are
actually doing and promoting these imports are the ones to actively
follow the import guidelines, and actively seek out the guidance and
outside expertise themselves.

Thanks,
Andy

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