Re: [Ticket#2020122110000186] Fix boundaries of Ceuta and Melilla (Spain)

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Re: [Ticket#2020122110000186] Fix boundaries of Ceuta and Melilla (Spain)

Alejandro Moreno Calvo
Hello Andy,

Thanks for all the information you sent me.

As far as I can see the relationship has come and gone several times. I think the last one deleted was https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50695157

The commentary on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/49804213#map=8/35.315/-1.862 explains why the waters of Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish territory.

Kind regards,
Alejandro

El mar, 22 dic 2020 a las 13:08, Data Working Group (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
Hello Alejandro,

You're correct that the https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=606038#p606038 discussion happened in 2016, and that the "territorial waters" of Ceuta and Melilla were removed in July 2017, but they were only added the month before:

Here's Spain on 20/6/2017: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/11qO

and here's Spain on 20/7/2017: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/11qN

Here, for completeness, are all the changes to Spain:
http://osm.mapki.com/history/relation.php?id=1311341

The discussion at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=606038#p606038 was primarily concerned about land borders, not maritime ones - if you're aware of a good source of maritime borders for Ceuta and Melilla then please share it with the wider OSM community.  There's some information on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/49804213 , but I'd suggest the sources there need more eyes on them before we accept them in to OSM.  As the "International Boundaries" forum seems no longer active, I'd suggest the main talk list would be a good place to start with that.

As an aside, https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/345004359 is an inner of Spain, and while there's a note on there referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Gibraltar#Territorial_waters which says that Spain does not recognise that boundary.  Something more machine readable would be better, but https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Mapping_disputed_boundaries was rejected by the community (for a number of good reasons - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Mapping_disputed_boundaries#Voting ).

Best regards
Andy Townsend

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OpenStreetMap Foundation
Data Working Group - [hidden email]
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[Ticket#2020122110000186]

- Alejandro Moreno wrote:
A few years ago there was a decision on the maritime borders of Ceuta and Melilla (Spanish cities surrounded by Morocco) and it was settled at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=606038#p606038

Relations have since been erased ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50695157 ) and now the maritime borders look bad at OSM as the area belonging to Spain does not appear on the map.

Please review the case so that from the DWG, it reverts to the correct situation and watch the area so that it does not start a war of editions.

Greetings.

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Re: [Ticket#2020122110000186] Fix boundaries of Ceuta and Melilla (Spain)

Andy Townsend

(echoing my DWG reply to Alejandro to the list as well)

Hello Alejandro,

> The commentary on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/49804213#map=8/35.315/-1.862 explains why the waters of Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish territory.

More information - and certainly more discussion - is needed, I think.  http://www.gibnet.com/fish/waters.htm doesn't directly address Ceuta and Melilla but rather Gibraltar (in fact it doesn't mention Melilla at all).  With https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/data/maritime-boundaries#tab-gis-data we'd need to understand what it is claimed that that data represents, what is the source of it and under what licence is it made available.  We (by which I mean everyone in OSM, not just the DWG) would also need to understand any contrary position from e.g. Morocco.

That doesn't mean that you are necessarily wrong, just that we need to discuss it more, hence me suggesting discussing it on the main international talk list https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk .

Best regards
Andy Townsend

--
OpenStreetMap Foundation
Data Working Group - [hidden email]


On 22/12/2020 14:51, Alejandro Moreno wrote:
Hello Andy,

Thanks for all the information you sent me.

As far as I can see the relationship has come and gone several times. I think the last one deleted was https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50695157

The commentary on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/49804213#map=8/35.315/-1.862 explains why the waters of Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish territory.

Kind regards,
Alejandro

El mar, 22 dic 2020 a las 13:08, Data Working Group (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
Hello Alejandro,

You're correct that the https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=606038#p606038 discussion happened in 2016, and that the "territorial waters" of Ceuta and Melilla were removed in July 2017, but they were only added the month before:

Here's Spain on 20/6/2017: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/11qO

and here's Spain on 20/7/2017: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/11qN

Here, for completeness, are all the changes to Spain:
http://osm.mapki.com/history/relation.php?id=1311341

The discussion at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=606038#p606038 was primarily concerned about land borders, not maritime ones - if you're aware of a good source of maritime borders for Ceuta and Melilla then please share it with the wider OSM community.  There's some information on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/49804213 , but I'd suggest the sources there need more eyes on them before we accept them in to OSM.  As the "International Boundaries" forum seems no longer active, I'd suggest the main talk list would be a good place to start with that.

As an aside, https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/345004359 is an inner of Spain, and while there's a note on there referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Gibraltar#Territorial_waters which says that Spain does not recognise that boundary.  Something more machine readable would be better, but https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Mapping_disputed_boundaries was rejected by the community (for a number of good reasons - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Mapping_disputed_boundaries#Voting ).

Best regards
Andy Townsend

--
OpenStreetMap Foundation
Data Working Group - [hidden email]
--
[Ticket#2020122110000186]

- Alejandro Moreno wrote:
A few years ago there was a decision on the maritime borders of Ceuta and Melilla (Spanish cities surrounded by Morocco) and it was settled at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=606038#p606038

Relations have since been erased ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50695157 ) and now the maritime borders look bad at OSM as the area belonging to Spain does not appear on the map.

Please review the case so that from the DWG, it reverts to the correct situation and watch the area so that it does not start a war of editions.

Greetings.

_______________________________________________
Talk-es mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es

_______________________________________________
Talk-es mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es