Re: Was public_transport=platform intended to > always be combined with highway=bus_stop?

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Re: Was public_transport=platform intended to > always be combined with highway=bus_stop?

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FWIW, I agree; No more tags, please, when we can manage with those that we have.

Busses stop at bus-stops and the route information shows which bus-stops they serve and the times when they are due there, so these should be tagged with ID, Ref Number, etc. as appropriate.  

A platform is a raised structure, constructed to bring the passengers up to, or near, the same level as the floor in the transport vehicle (bus, tram, train).  So, if there is a platform at the bus-stop, that can be mapped, just as tactile pavement might be, but needs no more tags.

Trains stop at stations and the route information and timetable show which stations they serve and when they are due to arrive/depart, so the whole area should be mapped and tagged as a station.  Within the station there will normally be several platforms, which may be named "Platform 1", "Platform 2"... ...or "Platform A", "Platform B" etc.  These could / should be mapped and given an name tag.  Whilst trains for particular destinations may NORMALLY use a certain platform, that can vary, depending on breakdowns, delays, scheduling issues, etc. so the Platforms should not be tagged with further information about the trains / route(s) using them.

The only potential issues I can see with my own argument above are:  How will the stations be connected to the railway lines? / Do they need to be? / How does the train route relation connect lines and stations? 

I do hope that helps, rather than just making things more confusing. 

Peter 

>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 20:51:13 +0900
>From: Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
>To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>Subject: Re: [Tagging] Was public_transport=platform intended to
>    always be combined with highway=bus_stop?
>Message-ID:
>    <CAP_2vPiH0G_3BFw6SaD55GA8OvTHQVVD25tk25W4SJA_pdxS+[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

>Agreed, there are enough tags for public transport already. I don't
>think anything new is needed.

>If there is a platform where buses stop, then there's a bus stop, and
>a platform. The platform is a physical feature, and I believe it would
>still be a highway=platform even if the bus service were discontinued.

>The bus stop represents that public buses actually stop at the
>location to pick up or drop off passengers.

>The ref= should go on whatever of the two features that it actual
>refers to: if it's on the bus stop sign or pole, it probably
>represents the bus stop, but it might actually refer to the physical
>platform and each different bus route that stops there might have a
>different ref=* for that bus stop.

>Perhaps sometimes you'll have to add the ref=* to both the stop and
>the platform, but that's ok. The public_transport=stop_position +
>=platform + stop_area idea often leads to putting the same ref on 3
>different objects.

>In all other situations (rail platforms, regular bus stops without an
>elevated platform, tram stops etc), the Refined_Public_Transport
>proposal is clearly simpler than using public_transport=* tags, so it
>looks like a good option.

>Joseph

>>On 7/31/19, yo paseopor <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> please: NO MORE TAGS
>> Either... can we mix all the tags of all the versions of Public transport
>> into a UNIQUE scheme for ALL kinds of transports, tagging it at the same
>> way with the same name: from electric autonomous buses to new Uber's
>> helicopters?
>> A scheme has to be scalable. Can we define that? Can we design that?
>> -Basic parts
>> -Basic tags
>> -Basic values
>>
>> And then... some kind of automated conversion of tags done by local
>> communities, with specific instructions at the wiki. Also tag as deprecated
>> all the old mixed stuff.
>>
>> What do you think?
>> Salut i mapes (health and maps)
>> yopaseopor
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:37 AM Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Joseph
>>>
>>> On Tue, 30 Jul 2019 at 15:59, Joseph Eisenberg
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I still haven't seen any benefit in adding public_transport=platform
>> >> to highway=bus_stop or highway=platform or railway=platform features,
>> >> and it doesn't look like the =stop_position tag is needed for routers
>> >> either, so all 3 of the main public_transport tags (except perhaps the
>> >> stop_area relation?) are rarely helpful.
>>>
>>> I agree, and it seems that most people that took part in this long
>>> discussion [1] i initiated in April about improving public transport
>>> mapping agreed too.
>>>
>>> [1]:
>>>
>>> While highway=bus_stop works in most simpler cases, it doesn't work
>>> very well for bus stations. For example, consider this simplified map
>>> of the postbus station in Bern. [2]
>>>
>>>
>>> It consists of seven platforms, numbered 1–7, and a mere pole on the
>>> sidewalk with the number 8. As highway=bus_stop and highway=platform
>>> both use the the highway=* key and thus can't be combined, for every
>>> platform i would need to map a highway=platform and a highway=bus_stop
>>> object. But which one should get the ref=*? Both? And which one should
>>> be added to the route relation? Usually highway=bus_stop is added to
>>> the route relation, but for trains, it is the platform.
>>>
>>> A possible solution of this problem were to invent a new tag for
>>> stops, which doesn't use the highway=* or railway=* key and thus can
>>> be combined with highway/railway=platform (e.g. public_transport=stop;
>>> or, alternatively, a new tag for platforms). However, i haven't got
>>> any feedback on that idea, so i don't know whether the community would
>>> accept such a change in tagging.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
>>> _
______________________________________________
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>>
>>
>





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Re: Was public_transport=platform intended to > always be combined with highway=bus_stop?

Markus-5
On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 15:08, Peter Neale via Tagging
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Within the station there will normally be several platforms, which may be named "Platform 1", "Platform 2"... ...or "Platform A", "Platform B" etc.  These could / should be mapped and given an name tag.

Common practice is to use ref=*, not name=*, because it's the number
or letter of the platform, not its name. (This also has the advantage
that e.g. routers can translate it into other languages.)

> Whilst trains for particular destinations may NORMALLY use a certain platform, that can vary, depending on breakdowns, delays, scheduling issues, etc. so the Platforms should not be tagged with further information about the trains / route(s) using them.

I disagree. If the train normally uses the same platform, except in
some rare moments, i think it helps to know from which platform it
departs. Note that bus stops sometimes can also be displaced or even
omitted because of roadworks, breakdowns, delays etc.

Regards

Markus

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Re: Was public_transport=platform intended to > always be combined with highway=bus_stop?

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Hi Markus,

Thank you for your comments.

I stand corrected on the Name v. Ref issue.  You are right; it would be better to map a platform and tag it with Ref=<platform number> .

As regards your other comment; I stand by my view that it is useful to know which services stop at a given station, but that any user wishing to travel would expect to check which platform to stand on, as that could be changed at short notice.  So adding that detail to the map would not (IMHO) be useful.   

Regards,

Peter

On Wednesday, 31 July 2019, 17:49:06 BST, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 15:08, Peter Neale via Tagging
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Within the station there will normally be several platforms, which may be named "Platform 1", "Platform 2"... ...or "Platform A", "Platform B" etc.  These could / should be mapped and given an name tag.

Common practice is to use ref=*, not name=*, because it's the number
or letter of the platform, not its name. (This also has the advantage
that e.g. routers can translate it into other languages.)

> Whilst trains for particular destinations may NORMALLY use a certain platform, that can vary, depending on breakdowns, delays, scheduling issues, etc. so the Platforms should not be tagged with further information about the trains / route(s) using them.

I disagree. If the train normally uses the same platform, except in
some rare moments, i think it helps to know from which platform it
departs. Note that bus stops sometimes can also be displaced or even
omitted because of roadworks, breakdowns, delays etc.


Regards

Markus

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Re: Was public_transport=platform intended to > always be combined with highway=bus_stop?

Jo-2
For platform numbers or letters I've seen local_ref being used succesfully. For train platforms it is also possible they are divided into zones, where one part of the train may have one destination, and the other another destination. Such trains are split either in that station or a subsequent one.

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 7:07 PM Peter Neale via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Markus,

Thank you for your comments.

I stand corrected on the Name v. Ref issue.  You are right; it would be better to map a platform and tag it with Ref=<platform number> .

As regards your other comment; I stand by my view that it is useful to know which services stop at a given station, but that any user wishing to travel would expect to check which platform to stand on, as that could be changed at short notice.  So adding that detail to the map would not (IMHO) be useful.   

Regards,

Peter

On Wednesday, 31 July 2019, 17:49:06 BST, Markus <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 15:08, Peter Neale via Tagging
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Within the station there will normally be several platforms, which may be named "Platform 1", "Platform 2"... ...or "Platform A", "Platform B" etc.  These could / should be mapped and given an name tag.

Common practice is to use ref=*, not name=*, because it's the number
or letter of the platform, not its name. (This also has the advantage
that e.g. routers can translate it into other languages.)

> Whilst trains for particular destinations may NORMALLY use a certain platform, that can vary, depending on breakdowns, delays, scheduling issues, etc. so the Platforms should not be tagged with further information about the trains / route(s) using them.

I disagree. If the train normally uses the same platform, except in
some rare moments, i think it helps to know from which platform it
departs. Note that bus stops sometimes can also be displaced or even
omitted because of roadworks, breakdowns, delays etc.


Regards

Markus
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Re: Was public_transport=platform intended to > always be combined with highway=bus_stop?

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by Markus-5
On Wed, 2019-07-31 at 18:48 +0200, Markus wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 15:08, Peter Neale via Tagging
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Within the station there will normally be several platforms, which
> > may be named "Platform 1", "Platform 2"... ...or "Platform A",
> > "Platform B" etc.  These could / should be mapped and given an name
> > tag.
>
> Common practice is to use ref=*, not name=*, because it's the number
> or letter of the platform, not its name. (This also has the advantage
> that e.g. routers can translate it into other languages.)
>
> > Whilst trains for particular destinations may NORMALLY use a
> > certain platform, that can vary, depending on breakdowns, delays,
> > scheduling issues, etc. so the Platforms should not be tagged with
> > further information about the trains / route(s) using them.
>
> I disagree. If the train normally uses the same platform, except in
> some rare moments, i think it helps to know from which platform it
> departs. Note that bus stops sometimes can also be displaced or even
> omitted because of roadworks, breakdowns, delays etc.
>
You can make that statement for a relatively simple station, where
there are two platforms and all northbound trains stop at Platform 1
and all southbound trains stop at Platform 2. Major stations are much
more complex.

It is probably true that for a particular train, at a particular time,
will normally use the same platform you cannot assume that all trains
to a particular destination will always use the same platform.

Trains to a destination can have arrived form different directions, and
the platform will depend on that and what other trains are there at the
same time.

As a regular rail user I am very aware that you cannot assume which
platform and you always need to check the displays, or maybe use an
app. An app is useful to find out which platform you are going into if
you need a quick escape so can be standing by the door on the correct
side.

Go to Euston for example, go at any time, and you will see vast numbers
of people watching the boards, waiting for the platform to be
announced.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: Was public_transport=platform intended to > always be combined with highway=bus_stop?

Markus-5
On Thursday, August 1, 2019, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is probably true that for a particular train, at a particular time,
will normally use the same platform you cannot assume that all trains
to a particular destination will always use the same platform.

[...]

As a regular rail user I am very aware that you cannot assume which
platform and you always need to check the displays, or maybe use an
app. An app is useful to find out which platform you are going into if
you need a quick escape so can be standing by the door on the correct
side.

It seems that it depends on the country. Here in Switzerland, a train of a particular route always departs from the same platform, except if there are rail works, a breakdown or similar, in which case there is an announcement on the usual platform that the train exceptionally departs from another platform. (For example, in Bern, IC 1 to Geneva always departs from platform 5 and IR 15 to Lucerne always from platform 7.) Thus, i think it makes sense to include the platforms in the route relation here.

Regards from the (almost) train paradise :)

Markus

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