Re: motorcar definition changed recently

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Re: motorcar definition changed recently

SelfishSeahorse
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 at 17:58, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thank you, I have now reverted the change wrt to motorcar.

I've also reverted the change on the page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorcar and tried to make the
different meanings of that tag when either used as permission or
restriction clearer.

Regards
Markus

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Re: motorcar definition changed recently

dieterdreist
I have tried to fix the picture and found, that there are now 2 distinct traffic signs, one is for all 2-tracked motor vehicles, including cars:


The other is explicitly for motorcars (those for the transport of up to 8 people, including the driver):

How are we going to distinguish these?

Cheers,
Martin



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Re: motorcar definition changed recently

Allroads
In reply to this post by SelfishSeahorse
It is time to give this twofold meaning a split, into two separate keys.
Within openstreetmap it can not have a twofold meaning!

The law in many countries also speaks of double tracked or more then two
wheels.

It is clear to me the new key must be double_tracked_motor_vehicle or short,
dt_motor_vehicle, or else, give it a better name.
Allready, fitted in the access hierarchy. With a OSM icon (front car)
As explained here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:motorcar
All description and structure already indicate that a split has to be done!


(includes all double-tracked motorised vehicles when used as restriction)
this must be removed.
It is unworkable. It is a monster. motorcar=no, meaning else.
So many key conditions have to be investigated to find out what is meant by
motorcar. if and or.......is.

I am working on a JOSM  test style to express the access on highway and
barriers in the road.
For control/check reasons, better to see a icon then watch the written key,
get the hint, that's why we make maps, make it more understandable.
http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~allroads/JOSM/Styles/Road_extended_JOSM_style_info.html

A key must have one meaning.  If not, it is almost impossible to express the
access for one type of vehicle. Where can I ride or drive, where not, where
conditional. Why could I not router there.
Test site:
http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~allroads/mtmworld/?map=agriculturalways&zoom=14&lat=49.79228&lon=6.77223&layers=B00000FFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTF
Also working on a preset. Translating law to tags.
There must be one more hierarchy step, in the lineup to motorcar.
We make it hard for ourselves to deal with this developmental error,
motorcar two meaning.
Despite, what people give as a meaning to motorcar, Openstreetmap have to
choose, one meaning, give the others a other key.

Working on this style/site, translating traffic law to keys/value, more keys
are needed.
single_tracked_vehicle,
non motorized vehicles, what keyname, see disabled vehicles. Small groups,
maybe they have more benefits than others.
A better hierarchy structure is needed.

So the definition have to be changed once again.

Regards
Allroads



----------------------------
From: SelfishSeahorse
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 10:03 AM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] motorcar definition changed recently

On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 at 17:58, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> Thank you, I have now reverted the change wrt to motorcar.

I've also reverted the change on the page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorcar and tried to make the
different meanings of that tag when either used as permission or
restriction clearer.

Regards
Markus

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Re: motorcar definition changed recently

SelfishSeahorse
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 at 11:33, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have tried to fix the picture and found, that there are now 2 distinct traffic signs, one is for all 2-tracked motor vehicles, including cars:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Germany#/media/File:Zeichen_251_-_Verbot_für_Kraftwagen_und_sonstige_mehrspurige_Kraftfahrzeuge,_StVO_1992.svg
>
> The other is explicitly for motorcars (those for the transport of up to 8 people, including the driver):
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Germany#/media/File:Zeichen_257-55_-_Verbot_f%C3%BCr_Personenkraftwagen,_StVO_2017.svg

🤦

Is anyone aware of other countries where these two traffic signs with
their different meanings are in use?

> How are we going to distinguish these?

We probably cannot avoid defining two new keys, for example car=* and
double_tracked_motor_vehicle=*, and discouraging motorcar=* because of
its ambiguity ¬(motorcar=yes) ≠ (motorcar=no). Then, motorcar=yes can
be converted to car=yes and motorcar=no to
double_tracked_motor_vehicle=no.

In the meantime, i advise everyone to tag 'no entry for any power
driven vehicle except two-wheeled motor cycles without side-car' signs
unambiguously motor_vehicle=no + motorcycle=yes (+ moped=yes/mofa=yes
if not counted as motorcycle).

Regards
Markus

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