Remove non-prefixed versions of 'contact:' scheme

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Re: Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

Colin Smale

On 2020-05-13 10:20, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

On 5/12/20 17:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
I'd really like somebody to come up with simple definitions of

mappers,

data consumers / customers,

users?

I'd consider "user" and "data consumer" to be the same thing (but would
prefer "user" or even "data user" in light of the objection to
"consumer" used in this context at
<https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Consumer>).

A "user" is someone who makes use of the data generated by the
OpenStreetMap project including its volunteers.
 
I think we should be clear about the distinction between consumers of the DATA (via APIs and downloads, in XML and PBF formats) and users of the RESULTS of processing that data (map renderings, other applications etc). Officially (unless it's changed) OSM is about the DATA, but many issues with the data don't surface until someone sees the results. These are two distinct user types or personas, each with their own list of requirements/expectations. Let's recognise that and treat them separately in this discussion.
 

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Re: Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

Shawn K. Quinn
On 5/13/20 03:31, Colin Smale wrote:
> These are two distinct user types or personas, each with their own list
> of requirements/expectations. Let's recognise that and treat them
> separately in this discussion.
  
Okay, "map user" and "data user" then? Anything to get "consumer" out of
the lexicon... it doesn't belong.

--
Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

Jez Nicholson
You might need to divide 'data user' into:

'data processors (?)' - those that extract, manipulate, and combine data ready to use/display.

'database users' - those that use/display the information with minimal preprocessing.

Recent discussions appear to be a mismatch between the needs of the 2.

On Wed, 13 May 2020, 09:43 Shawn K. Quinn, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 5/13/20 03:31, Colin Smale wrote:
> These are two distinct user types or personas, each with their own list
> of requirements/expectations. Let's recognise that and treat them
> separately in this discussion.
  
Okay, "map user" and "data user" then? Anything to get "consumer" out of
the lexicon... it doesn't belong.

--
Shawn K. Quinn <[hidden email]>
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: Remove non-prefixed versions of 'contact:' scheme

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Hi,

I was busy and couldn't participate in this very interesting discussion.

My proposal:
- Moving all social media keys like `facebook`, `twitter`, `whatsapp`, `telegram` etc. to a `socialmedia` namespace like `socialmedia:facebook`, `socialmedia:twitter`, `socialmedia:whatsapp`, `socialmedia:telegram` etc.
- Enriching the definition of `phone` and therefore `contact:phone` (because they mean the same): "If the `phone` key is mapped on an object with `amenity=telephone` then `phone` is the phone number of the telephone box and not the phone number of the operator."
- `phone` --> `contact:phone`
- `email` --> `contact:email`

Now the difficult part begins because no "mechanical edit" is possible (or at least very difficult and error-prone) here:
- `contact:website`: Only websites to be used for contacting purpose only (and having little or no information character).
- `website`: All the other websites of a POI not fitting in the definition of `contact:website`. So providing valuable information about the POI.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram


-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <[hidden email]>
To: Cj Malone <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Remove non-prefixed versions of 'contact:' scheme
Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 00:01:33 +0200


sent from a phone

On 10. May 2020, at 23:55, Cj Malone <
[hidden email]
> wrote:

I think we should actively encourage more precise tags like
contact:phone when it's a contact number.


why is this “more precise”? 
What about even “more precise” tags, like
contact:phone:business_hours=
contact:phone:reservations=
even better?

IMHO dataconsumers find the tags easiest if they use the same key, if they have to search for the keys it will make everyone’s life harder not better.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: Remove non-prefixed versions of 'contact:' scheme

MARLIN LUKE
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
I read the previous iteration of that discussion, and it left me with a
sour taste. The community was _not_ welcoming and made me reconsider my
view of OSM. People opposing the idea were often harsh, and arguments
were buried under piles of unpleasant-ness.

Now, I've read that iteration (all messages), and even though Paul
Allen looked slighty sarcastic/irritated at the end, he did a better
job at convincing me why this might not be a good idea because he
carefuly replied to points, and made some sensible ones as well.

So yeah, basically, what I wanted to say is thank you Paul for all you
wrote, your messages helped me understand another point of view and
showed me that this list could indeed be used to have actual
discussions between users.

On the topic itself, I still like the idea of having hierarchized tags,
but as it's been shown it might not easily apply here and probably
isn't worth the effort of applying a new scheme.

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Re: Remove non-prefixed versions of 'contact:' scheme

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
On Sat, 16 May 2020 at 08:25, Valor Naram via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

My proposal:
- Moving all social media keys like `facebook`, `twitter`, `whatsapp`, `telegram` etc. to a `socialmedia` namespace like `socialmedia:facebook`, `socialmedia:twitter`, `socialmedia:whatsapp`, `socialmedia:telegram` etc.

Why do you think this is useful?  The sole justification for namespaces I can
see is preventing key collisions.  There are two reasons when preventing
key collisions is desirable:

1) A sub-key would have two entirely different meanings depending upon
which main key it is used with.  This would be confusing.

2) A sub-key has the same meaning when used with two or more main keys
but takes a different sub-set of values depending which main key it is
used with.  For editors which populate drop-downs from the wiki
or wikidata, this means users are presented with some choices
which do not make sense or are invalid with the main key they
have used.  It may also mean they are presented with an
awkwardly long list of choices in the drop-down, many of
which are not applicable with that main key.

Perhaps there are other valid reasons for namespaces.  A simple desire
to group things for neatness is not one of them.

Can you present a likely scenario in which we would use a different prefix
with facebook, whatsapp, etc. other than socialmedia?  One that could not
be solved by using a namespace for the new scenario?  Bear in mind
that these social media companies defend their trademarks vigorously
and that even in jurisdictions where the same word may be used as
a trademark in different categories, Facebook are likely to throw more
money at a law suit than Facebook Paint, Facebook Frozen Foods
and the like are able to match and in such law suits the deepest
pocket usually wins.

This seems to be grouping for the sake of grouping where no grouping
is necessary.  You tried it with phone and website and that was not
greeted enthusiastically so your response is to come up with more
needless groiuping.

Now the difficult part begins because no "mechanical edit" is possible (or at least very difficult and error-prone) here:
- `contact:website`: Only websites to be used for contacting purpose only (and having little or no information character).

Can you give me an example of such a website?  Can you then show where it
has been mapped?  Can you then show where the POI's main website does
not provide a link to the contact website and that therefore both are necessary?

--
Paul


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Re: Remove non-prefixed versions of 'contact:' scheme

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by MARLIN LUKE
On Sat, 16 May 2020 at 10:41, Luke Marlin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Now, I've read that iteration (all messages), and even though Paul
Allen looked slighty sarcastic/irritated at the end,

Sorry about that.  Others are far more diplomatic and patient than I am.
I don't always respond in the optimum way.  I try, but often fail.

--
Paul


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