Representing places with no housenumber

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Representing places with no housenumber

Nelson A. de Oliveira
What is the best way to represent places which have no housenumber?

It's the same problem described in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Addresses#Missing_housenumbers
(and this same doubt arose recently in the Brazilian community)

By leaving the housenumber empty we don't know in fact if the place
doesn't have a housenumber or if it wasn't just filled.

Similarly to using name="No name" to represent a street with no name,
using any kind of value in addr:housenumber would be wrong and cause
the same kind of problems.

How could we solve this, please?

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 22. Aug 2018, at 17:17, Nelson A. de Oliveira <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Similarly to using name="No name" to represent a street with no name,
> using any kind of value in addr:housenumber would be wrong and cause
> the same kind of problems.
>
> How could we solve this, please?


no_housenumber=yes

or if you like typing:
no_addr:housenumber=yes

I admit I have recently added some addr:housenumber=no but I agree it is not clean

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Nelson A. de Oliveira
On Wednesday 22 August 2018, Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote:
> What is the best way to represent places which have no housenumber?
>
> [...]

I assume you mean no addr:housenumber and no addr:housename.

What's wrong with noaddress=yes?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:noaddress

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 22. Aug 2018, at 17:35, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I assume you mean no addr:housenumber and no addr:housename.
>
> What's wrong with noaddress=yes?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:noaddress



the wiki says noaddress is for places without an address, but the places I have in mind do have an address, they have a street, postcode, city, just no housenumber. While it is against the formal requirements set up by national institutions, it is still a quite frequent situation in the countryside.

If there is a shop or restaurant it might be arguable to repeat the business name as addr:housename on the address object, but usually in these cases the address object is the same as the business object (in the osm representation), so I enter only name and don’t duplicate.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Andreas Vilén
In reply to this post by Nelson A. de Oliveira
Please don’t use name=no name. Use noname=yes.

/Andreas

Skickat från min iPhone

> 22 aug. 2018 kl. 17:17 skrev Nelson A. de Oliveira <[hidden email]>:
>
> What is the best way to represent places which have no housenumber?
>
> It's the same problem described in
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Addresses#Missing_housenumbers
> (and this same doubt arose recently in the Brazilian community)
>
> By leaving the housenumber empty we don't know in fact if the place
> doesn't have a housenumber or if it wasn't just filled.
>
> Similarly to using name="No name" to represent a street with no name,
> using any kind of value in addr:housenumber would be wrong and cause
> the same kind of problems.
>
> How could we solve this, please?
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Wednesday 22 August 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> > What's wrong with noaddress=yes?
> >
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:noaddress
>
> the wiki says noaddress is for places without an address, but the
> places I have in mind do have an address, they have a street,
> postcode, city, just no housenumber.

The single most important property of an address is that it is unique so
a building or other place than does not have a housenumber, housename
or another component that makes the address unique does not have an
address at all even if you can specify a street, city etc. at/in which
it is located.

Specifying addr:street on a building that does not have an address is
either pointless or non-verifiable.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Nelson A. de Oliveira
On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Specifying addr:street on a building that does not have an address is
> either pointless or non-verifiable.

But this happens here :-)
Sometimes they are big buildings/areas (which occupies a whole city
block, for example), with addr:street, addr:postcode but no
addr:housenumber

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Christoph Hormann-2
On Wednesday 22 August 2018, Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote:
> > Specifying addr:street on a building that does not have an address
> > is either pointless or non-verifiable.
>
> But this happens here :-)
> Sometimes they are big buildings/areas (which occupies a whole city
> block, for example), with addr:street, addr:postcode but no
> addr:housenumber

You probably have to give a real world example since i have no idea if
you want to say you have a building with a unique address consisting of
addr:street and addr:postcode (could be if there is only one building
at this street or with this postcode) or if you want to defend
pointless or non-verifiable tagging of addr:street for buildings
without a unique address.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

ebel
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
On 22.08.2018 22:28, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> The single most important property of an address is that it is unique

35% of addresses in Ireland aren't unique. The newly introduced (and
hardly used) postcode system gives a unique code to every letter box, so
it's now unique-able. But to say there were no addresses in Ireland
pre-2014 is silly.

Technically by Irish standards, German addresses aren't unique, and
probably more non-unique than Ireland's "35%".

https://www.eircode.ie/faqs

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

ebel
In reply to this post by Nelson A. de Oliveira
Plenty of house in Ireland don't have a housenumber. So just don't add
addr:housenumber! If there's a name, then use addr:housename.

IMO you should enter the correct "addr:*" tags, and it's up to the
geocoder to show them right. You could always use addr:full to help it?

I think "name:absent=yes" is better for "this thing doesn't have a
name", which is extensible to "addr:housenumber:absent=yes". But is
anywhere using *any* "no name" scheme?

On 22.08.2018 17:17, Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote:

> What is the best way to represent places which have no housenumber?
>
> It's the same problem described in
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Addresses#Missing_housenumbers
> (and this same doubt arose recently in the Brazilian community)
>
> By leaving the housenumber empty we don't know in fact if the place
> doesn't have a housenumber or if it wasn't just filled.
>
> Similarly to using name="No name" to represent a street with no name,
> using any kind of value in addr:housenumber would be wrong and cause
> the same kind of problems.
>
> How could we solve this, please?
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by ebel
On Wednesday 22 August 2018, Rory McCann wrote:
> > The single most important property of an address is that it is
> > unique
>
> 35% of addresses in Ireland aren't unique.

I strongly suspect we have a different understanding of either 'address'
or 'uniqueness' here.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2


On Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 16:02 Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wednesday 22 August 2018, Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote:
> > Specifying addr:street on a building that does not have an address
> > is either pointless or non-verifiable.
>
> But this happens here :-)
> Sometimes they are big buildings/areas (which occupies a whole city
> block, for example), with addr:street, addr:postcode but no
> addr:housenumber

You probably have to give a real world example since i have no idea if
you want to say you have a building with a unique address consisting of
addr:street and addr:postcode (could be if there is only one building
at this street or with this postcode) or if you want to defend
pointless or non-verifiable tagging of addr:street for buildings
without a unique address.

Midway Public Schools
3rd Street
Council Hill, Oklahoma

Though I'd call "Midway Public Schools" a housename since there are numbered addresses on 3rd, but the schools aren't.  Been there a few times for service calls, know this example firsthand.

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Nelson A. de Oliveira
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 5:58 PM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You probably have to give a real world example since i have no idea if
> you want to say you have a building with a unique address consisting of
> addr:street and addr:postcode (could be if there is only one building
> at this street or with this postcode) or if you want to defend
> pointless or non-verifiable tagging of addr:street for buildings
> without a unique address.

You know that we live in a heterogeneous world with many oddities and
peculiarities, that what makes sense in one country or region may not
make sense in another, that these definitions are beyond our control
and that we are only trying to represent what exists in the real
world, right?

But for example, multiple government offices are listed in this page
https://www.ma.gov.br/contatos/ and some, despite having a proper
address, don't have a housenumber (where "S/N" is the abbreviation for
"sem número" = "no number")

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Christoph Hormann-2
On Wednesday 22 August 2018, Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote:
>
> You know that we live in a heterogeneous world with many oddities and
> peculiarities, that what makes sense in one country or region may not
> make sense in another, that these definitions are beyond our control
> and that we are only trying to represent what exists in the real
> world, right?

Well - tags are generally invented for a specific part of our
heterogeneous world and you need to be careful when using the same tags
in a very different geographic setting based on some superficial
similarity.

If in your area there are addresses that are very different from
elsewhere it might not be a good idea to use the same tags for those.

> But for example, multiple government offices are listed in this page
> https://www.ma.gov.br/contatos/ and some, despite having a proper
> address, don't have a housenumber (where "S/N" is the abbreviation
> for "sem número" = "no number")

I still don't know if the addresses listed there are unique (in the
sense that only those government offices have this address) or if there
are maybe a dozen other unrelated buildings which happen to have the
same address (which clashes with my understanding of the concept of an
address).

Note to document a building/place belongs to a certain street we also
have the concept of the associatedStreet relation.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:associatedStreet

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Nelson A. de Oliveira


sent from a phone

> On 22. Aug 2018, at 23:47, Nelson A. de Oliveira <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> where "S/N" is the abbreviation for
> "sem número" = "no number"


same here ‘snc’ = ‘senza numero civico’ means no housenumber, common in addresses.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Warin
In reply to this post by Andreas Vilén
On 23/08/18 02:37, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> Please don’t use name=no name. Use noname=yes.

+1

name= is for the name only. If it has no name then the tag name= should not be used.

>
> /Andreas
>
> Skickat från min iPhone
>
>> 22 aug. 2018 kl. 17:17 skrev Nelson A. de Oliveira <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> What is the best way to represent places which have no housenumber?
>>
>> It's the same problem described in
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Addresses#Missing_housenumbers
>> (and this same doubt arose recently in the Brazilian community)
>>
>> By leaving the housenumber empty we don't know in fact if the place
>> doesn't have a housenumber or if it wasn't just filled.
>>
>> Similarly to using name="No name" to represent a street with no name,
>> using any kind of value in addr:housenumber would be wrong and cause
>> the same kind of problems.
>>
>> How could we solve this, please?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2


sent from a phone

> On 23. Aug 2018, at 00:30, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I still don't know if the addresses listed there are unique (in the
> sense that only those government offices have this address) or if there
> are maybe a dozen other unrelated buildings which happen to have the
> same address (which clashes with my understanding of the concept of an
> address).


it depends what the housenumber represents, in Germany this is either a plot or a building, depending on the Bundesland, for example in Italy it is an entrance (from the public to the private space), and if the buildings are all accessible by one entrance in the perimeter they can all have the same housenumber (external number, they should also get individual internal numbers).

You can map just the number and create a kind of POI in itself, but if there is already a POI and you add address tags to it they are (also) a property of the POI. This is mapped with the same tags. To know whether the address is for a plot or an entrance requires additional knowledge about the legal situation and usage, you cannot see it from current data.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Nelson A. de Oliveira
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2
On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 7:30 PM, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I still don't know if the addresses listed there are unique (in the
> sense that only those government offices have this address) or if there
> are maybe a dozen other unrelated buildings which happen to have the
> same address (which clashes with my understanding of the concept of an
> address).

Usually the places without a housenumber here have some kind of
intrinsic distinctiveness/uniqueness.
For example, an airport located in a road (there won't be 2 airports
at the same road), some big industries/factories, an university
campus, parks, places related to the government, etc.

What we are trying to find is something similar to noname and noref,
but for housenumbers (and avoid people entering all imaginable and
unimaginable variants of "no housenumber" in addr:housenumber).

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

Christoph Hormann-2
On Thursday 23 August 2018, Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote:
>
> Usually the places without a housenumber here have some kind of
> intrinsic distinctiveness/uniqueness.
> For example, an airport located in a road (there won't be 2 airports
> at the same road), some big industries/factories, an university
> campus, parks, places related to the government, etc.

Ok, if the address is essentially "The airport on X-street" or "The
government office on Y-street" then i think the type of feature is part
of the address and this needs to be indicated in tagging somehow.  And
And I don't think the fact that there is no house number needs to be
specifically indicated then.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Representing places with no housenumber

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2


sent from a phone

> On 22. Aug 2018, at 22:28, Christoph Hormann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Specifying addr:street on a building that does not have an address is
> either pointless or non-verifiable.


as I explained above, we don’t add address tags to buildings in general, we add them to entrances and pois. If there is no housenumber, the poi would state this usually in the address (snc), for example on websites, business cards, etc.

They do have an address, even if it is not satisfying your expectations about the nature of addresses. You can send them a letter and it will likely arrive.

There is no need for the fixation on buildings and uniqueness of addresses. In many typical apartment buildings you will have a lot of people all with the same address. That’s not very different from several offices having the same address (in this case I would argue the name (either person or business) is part of the address)

cheers,
Martin
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