Request for assistance in creating a tag.

[Mikko Tamura]

Good day, fellow OSM tagging experts. I would like to ask assistance in creating a tag for HIV facilities. We have created a tagging system for hiv facilities here in the Philippines but it seems to be too extensive. We would like it to be more simple. I hope you can help me with it. I am reading the wiki page and Im having a challenging time doing it.

Some background: We have 3 types of HIV facilities/clinics. Treatment hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing), primary hiv care (dispensaries+testing) and testing centers/clinics (testing only). We have started tagging hospitals which have this features and honestly I am guessing this would eventually get mixed up with the other tagging like the contact number of the hospital, etc. Hopefully, we can represent it with a node with basic details specifically for that clinic/department. 

Hope someone can guide us and thank you in advance.

--

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Warin]

At present there is the key healtcare.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare

Some initial thoughts?

healthcare:specialty=HIV_testing

healthcare:specialty=HIV_treatment

HIV dispensary ... would be a pharmacy?

amenity=pharmacy and  dispensing=HIV

??? Hopefully there will be better ideas.

On 13/4/20 4:32 pm, Mikko Tamura wrote:

Good day, fellow OSM tagging experts. I would like to ask assistance in creating a tag for HIV facilities. We have created a tagging system for hiv facilities here in the Philippines but it seems to be too extensive. We would like it to be more simple. I hope you can help me with it. I am reading the wiki page and Im having a challenging time doing it.

Some background: We have 3 types of HIV facilities/clinics. Treatment hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing), primary hiv care (dispensaries+testing) and testing centers/clinics (testing only). We have started tagging hospitals which have this features and honestly I am guessing this would eventually get mixed up with the other tagging like the contact number of the hospital, etc. Hopefully, we can represent it with a node with basic details specifically for that clinic/department. 

Hope someone can guide us and thank you in advance.

--

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> Treatment hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing):

Are you sure you mean "inpatient?" An "inpatient" facility, in
American English, is a hospital which has beds where patients are
cared for overnight.

This would be mapped as amenity=hospital for the main feature, most likely.

> primary hiv care (dispensaries+testing)

You don't mention care by a nurse or physician, but I assume this is
an amenity=clinic (with physicians and nurses) which also has an
amenity=pharmacy in the same building. There might also be a
healthcare=laboratory at the location.

> testing centers/clinics (testing only)

Is this a doctor's office, or is there just a nurse, or just a
laboratory technician who can draw blood for the test? If there is a
doctor, it might be an amenity=doctors. If there is just a laboratory
for testing, that would be a healthcare=laboratory facility.

For the speciality, it's possible to use something like
healthcare:speciality=hiv if that's the only thing that the clinic
treats.

But here in Indonesia and back in the USA most clinics that treat HIV
also offer treatment for other infectious  conditions, so a different
specialty like healthcare:speciality=infectious_diseases would usually
be more correct.

I see that in the Phillipines the tag "disease:hiv=yes" has been used:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/disease%3Ahiv#map

In Indonesia and the USA you can get an HIV test at just about any
healthcare=laboratory and larger clinics and all hospitals. But if you
can only get this done at some specialized places in the Phillipines,
you could consider adding a tag like "hiv_testing=yes/no" for clinics,
doctor's offices, and laboratories.

Similarly, in the USA it's normal to be able to get hiv medications
from standard pharmacies. But if they are only available from a few
pharmacies in your country, you could add a tag like
"hiv_medication=yes/no" to an "amenity=pharmacy" facility.

It looks like "medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes" has been
used in combination. That seems overlong and complex,  so it would not
have been my first choice:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/medical_service%3Aantiretroviral_therapy

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 4/13/20, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At present there is the key healtcare.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
>
> Some initial thoughts?
>
> healthcare:specialty=HIV_testing
>
> healthcare:specialty=HIV_treatment
>
> HIV dispensary ... would be a pharmacy?
>
> amenity <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:amenity>=pharmacy and
> dispensing <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dispensing>=HIV
>
> ???Hopefully there will be better ideas.
>
> On 13/4/20 4:32 pm, Mikko Tamura wrote:
>> Good day, fellow OSM tagging experts. I would like to ask assistance
>> in creating a tag for HIV facilities. We have created a tagging system
>> for hiv facilities here in the Philippines but it seems to be too
>> extensive. We would like it to be more simple. I hope you can help me
>> with it. I am reading the wiki page and Im having a challenging time
>> doing it.
>>
>> Some background: We have 3 types of HIV facilities/clinics. Treatment
>> hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing), primary hiv care
>> (dispensaries+testing) and testing centers/clinics (testing only). We
>> have started tagging hospitals which have this features and honestly I
>> am guessing this would eventually get mixed up with the other tagging
>> like the contact number of the hospital, etc. Hopefully, we can
>> represent it with a node with basic details specifically for that
>> clinic/department.
>>
>> Hope someone can guide us and thank you in advance.
>> --
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *MIKKO L. TAMURA*
>> /*Administrator*/
>> /Map Beks Initiative/
>> /
>> /
>> /*Externals Head*/
>> /Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers/
>> /
>> /
>> /*Volunteer Mapper*/
>> /OpenStreetMap Philippines/
>> *Contact Number: [phone]*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Mikko Tamura]

Thank you for the wonderful insights. Currently, what we are tagging is the hospital. So for example, Manila Hospital (tagged as a hospital) we add the tags like disease:hiv=yes. say that it is a treatment facility and it dispenses hiv medicine. But what i am having difficulty is that hiv facility is treated like a department. You can put in the email address and contact details of the hospital but if I add the contact details of the Hiv facility it then gets mixed with the hospital details. 

 

In this case A hospital can have a clinic specifically for HIV, and a clinic can also have a small office for HIV patients (not specifically another clinic).

Thanks Joseph and Warin most. of the cases are really similar here. 

For treatment hubs - yes this is for inpatients similarly for the one you described. This is are mostly hospitals but in some cases clinics. My problem here is that a big hospital has alot of contact details for the hospital so the information and contact details for the hiv treatment facility are mixed.

For hiv care - yes it is a bit of all a combination. I cant tagged it as a pharmacy as it only releases specific anti-retroviral drugs.

Currently We are using this tagging system as assisted by the local OSM community in the Philippines.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HIV_Facilities_Tagging_(MapBeks)

But I feel the feature gets overshadowed by the hospital/clinic/social facility/office tag. Your thoughts would be very helpful. 

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 3:58 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Treatment hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing):

Are you sure you mean "inpatient?" An "inpatient" facility, in
American English, is a hospital which has beds where patients are
cared for overnight.

This would be mapped as amenity=hospital for the main feature, most likely.

> primary hiv care (dispensaries+testing)

You don't mention care by a nurse or physician, but I assume this is
an amenity=clinic (with physicians and nurses) which also has an
amenity=pharmacy in the same building. There might also be a
healthcare=laboratory at the location.

> testing centers/clinics (testing only)

Is this a doctor's office, or is there just a nurse, or just a
laboratory technician who can draw blood for the test? If there is a
doctor, it might be an amenity=doctors. If there is just a laboratory
for testing, that would be a healthcare=laboratory facility.

For the speciality, it's possible to use something like
healthcare:speciality=hiv if that's the only thing that the clinic
treats.

But here in Indonesia and back in the USA most clinics that treat HIV
also offer treatment for other infectious  conditions, so a different
specialty like healthcare:speciality=infectious_diseases would usually
be more correct.

I see that in the Phillipines the tag "disease:hiv=yes" has been used:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/disease%3Ahiv#map

In Indonesia and the USA you can get an HIV test at just about any
healthcare=laboratory and larger clinics and all hospitals. But if you
can only get this done at some specialized places in the Phillipines,
you could consider adding a tag like "hiv_testing=yes/no" for clinics,
doctor's offices, and laboratories.

Similarly, in the USA it's normal to be able to get hiv medications
from standard pharmacies. But if they are only available from a few
pharmacies in your country, you could add a tag like
"hiv_medication=yes/no" to an "amenity=pharmacy" facility.

It looks like "medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes" has been
used in combination. That seems overlong and complex,  so it would not
have been my first choice:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/medical_service%3Aantiretroviral_therapy

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 4/13/20, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> At present there is the key healtcare.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
>
> Some initial thoughts?
>
> healthcare:specialty=HIV_testing
>
> healthcare:specialty=HIV_treatment
>
> HIV dispensary ... would be a pharmacy?
>
> amenity <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:amenity>=pharmacy and
> dispensing <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dispensing>=HIV
>
> ???Hopefully there will be better ideas.
>
> On 13/4/20 4:32 pm, Mikko Tamura wrote:
>> Good day, fellow OSM tagging experts. I would like to ask assistance
>> in creating a tag for HIV facilities. We have created a tagging system
>> for hiv facilities here in the Philippines but it seems to be too
>> extensive. We would like it to be more simple. I hope you can help me
>> with it. I am reading the wiki page and Im having a challenging time
>> doing it.
>>
>> Some background: We have 3 types of HIV facilities/clinics. Treatment
>> hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing), primary hiv care
>> (dispensaries+testing) and testing centers/clinics (testing only). We
>> have started tagging hospitals which have this features and honestly I
>> am guessing this would eventually get mixed up with the other tagging
>> like the contact number of the hospital, etc. Hopefully, we can
>> represent it with a node with basic details specifically for that
>> clinic/department.
>>
>> Hope someone can guide us and thank you in advance.
>> --
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *MIKKO L. TAMURA*
>> /*Administrator*/
>> /Map Beks Initiative/
>> /
>> /
>> /*Externals Head*/
>> /Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers/
>> /
>> /
>> /*Volunteer Mapper*/
>> /OpenStreetMap Philippines/
>> *Contact Number: [phone]*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

--

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[ebel]

I think this is a case of “Things within other things”. How do we map
that? For the enclosing hospital, we know how to map that. But how do we
map individual parts within it?

e.g. St. James' Hospital in Dublin (OSM:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/32015912 ), the hospital has it's own
phone number, `website` etc. Within that is a HIV (& STI) clinic
http://guideclinic.ie/ It has it's own website, and a specific location.
How should that be tagged?

Beumount Hospital ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/22634348 ) has is
mapped and tagged. The Infection Disease service (
http://www.beaumont.ie/index.jsp?p=105&n=227 ) is “located on the ground
floor in St Johns ward”, and has a phone number & email address. How can
we map this?

OSM could do much better for indoor mapping, and for shopping centres or
train stations, that's easy. Add each `shop` or corridor. But what about
a (sorta of) clinic within a larger OSM object?

On 13.04.20 10:48, Mikko Tamura wrote:

> Thank you for the wonderful insights. Currently, what we are tagging is
> the hospital. So for example, Manila Hospital (tagged as a hospital) we
> add the tags like disease:hiv=yes. say that it is a treatment facility
> and it dispenses hiv medicine. But what i am having difficulty is that
> hiv facility is treated like a department. You can put in the email
> address and contact details of the hospital but if I add the contact
> details of the Hiv facility it then gets mixed with the hospital details.
> In this case A hospital can have a clinic specifically for HIV, and a
> clinic can also have a small office for HIV patients (not specifically
> another clinic).
>
>
>
> Thanks Joseph and Warin most. of the cases are really similar here.
>
> For treatment hubs - yes this is for inpatients similarly for the one
> you described. This is are mostly hospitals but in some cases clinics.
> My problem here is that a big hospital has alot of contact details for
> the hospital so the information and contact details for the hiv
> treatment facility are mixed.
>
> For hiv care - yes it is a bit of all a combination. I cant tagged it as
> a pharmacy as it only releases specific anti-retroviral drugs.
>
> Currently We are using this tagging system as assisted by the local OSM
> community in the Philippines.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HIV_Facilities_Tagging_(MapBeks)
>
> But I feel the feature gets overshadowed by the hospital/clinic/social
> facility/office tag. Your thoughts would be very helpful.
>
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 3:58 PM Joseph Eisenberg
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>      > Treatment hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing):
>
>     Are you sure you mean "inpatient?" An "inpatient" facility, in
>     American English, is a hospital which has beds where patients are
>     cared for overnight.
>
>     This would be mapped as amenity=hospital for the main feature, most
>     likely.
>
>      > primary hiv care (dispensaries+testing)
>
>     You don't mention care by a nurse or physician, but I assume this is
>     an amenity=clinic (with physicians and nurses) which also has an
>     amenity=pharmacy in the same building. There might also be a
>     healthcare=laboratory at the location.
>
>      > testing centers/clinics (testing only)
>
>     Is this a doctor's office, or is there just a nurse, or just a
>     laboratory technician who can draw blood for the test? If there is a
>     doctor, it might be an amenity=doctors. If there is just a laboratory
>     for testing, that would be a healthcare=laboratory facility.
>
>     For the speciality, it's possible to use something like
>     healthcare:speciality=hiv if that's the only thing that the clinic
>     treats.
>
>     But here in Indonesia and back in the USA most clinics that treat HIV
>     also offer treatment for other infectious  conditions, so a different
>     specialty like healthcare:speciality=infectious_diseases would usually
>     be more correct.
>
>     I see that in the Phillipines the tag "disease:hiv=yes" has been used:
>     https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/disease%3Ahiv#map
>
>     In Indonesia and the USA you can get an HIV test at just about any
>     healthcare=laboratory and larger clinics and all hospitals. But if you
>     can only get this done at some specialized places in the Phillipines,
>     you could consider adding a tag like "hiv_testing=yes/no" for clinics,
>     doctor's offices, and laboratories.
>
>     Similarly, in the USA it's normal to be able to get hiv medications
>     from standard pharmacies. But if they are only available from a few
>     pharmacies in your country, you could add a tag like
>     "hiv_medication=yes/no" to an "amenity=pharmacy" facility.
>
>     It looks like "medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes" has been
>     used in combination. That seems overlong and complex,  so it would not
>     have been my first choice:
>     https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/medical_service%3Aantiretroviral_therapy
>
>     -- Joseph Eisenberg
>
>     On 4/13/20, Warin <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>      > At present there is the key healtcare.
>      >
>      > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
>      >
>      > Some initial thoughts?
>      >
>      > healthcare:specialty=HIV_testing
>      >
>      > healthcare:specialty=HIV_treatment
>      >
>      > HIV dispensary ... would be a pharmacy?
>      >
>      > amenity
>     <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:amenity>=pharmacy and
>      > dispensing <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dispensing>=HIV
>      >
>      > ???Hopefully there will be better ideas.
>      >
>      > On 13/4/20 4:32 pm, Mikko Tamura wrote:
>      >> Good day, fellow OSM tagging experts. I would like to ask assistance
>      >> in creating a tag for HIV facilities. We have created a tagging
>     system
>      >> for hiv facilities here in the Philippines but it seems to be too
>      >> extensive. We would like it to be more simple. I hope you can
>     help me
>      >> with it. I am reading the wiki page and Im having a challenging time
>      >> doing it.
>      >>
>      >> Some background: We have 3 types of HIV facilities/clinics.
>     Treatment
>      >> hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing), primary hiv care
>      >> (dispensaries+testing) and testing centers/clinics (testing
>     only). We
>      >> have started tagging hospitals which have this features and
>     honestly I
>      >> am guessing this would eventually get mixed up with the other
>     tagging
>      >> like the contact number of the hospital, etc. Hopefully, we can
>      >> represent it with a node with basic details specifically for that
>      >> clinic/department.
>      >>
>      >> Hope someone can guide us and thank you in advance.
>      >> --
>      >> *
>      >> *
>      >> *
>      >> *
>      >> *MIKKO L. TAMURA*
>      >> /*Administrator*/
>      >> /Map Beks Initiative/
>      >> /
>      >> /
>      >> /*Externals Head*/
>      >> /Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers/
>      >> /
>      >> /
>      >> /*Volunteer Mapper*/
>      >> /OpenStreetMap Philippines/
>      >> *Contact Number: [phone]*
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> _______________________________________________
>      >> Tagging mailing list
>      >> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>      >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>      >
>      >
>      >
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Tagging mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> --
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *MIKKO L. TAMURA*
> /*Administrator*/
> /Map Beks Initiative/
> /
> /
> /*Externals Head*/
> /Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers/
> /
> /
> /*Volunteer Mapper*/
> /OpenStreetMap Philippines/
> *Contact Number: [phone]*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[ebel]

On 13.04.20 09:57, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> testing centers/clinics (testing only)
>
> Is this a doctor's office, or is there just a nurse, or just a
> laboratory technician who can draw blood for the test? If there is a
> doctor, it might be an amenity=doctors. If there is just a laboratory
> for testing, that would be a healthcare=laboratory facility.

What if there's HIV testing at a bar or nightclub? (I'm not joking.)
Blood gets taken, but not tested there. “This place does HIV tests
(between these hours)”. How would we tag that?

> For the speciality, it's possible to use something like
> healthcare:speciality=hiv if that's the only thing that the clinic
> treats.
>
> But here in Indonesia and back in the USA most clinics that treat HIV
> also offer treatment for other infectious  conditions, so a different
> specialty like healthcare:speciality=infectious_diseases would usually
> be more correct.
>
> I see that in the Phillipines the tag "disease:hiv=yes" has been used:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/disease%3Ahiv#map
>
> In Indonesia and the USA you can get an HIV test at just about any
> healthcare=laboratory and larger clinics and all hospitals. But if you
> can only get this done at some specialized places in the Phillipines,
> you could consider adding a tag like "hiv_testing=yes/no" for clinics,
> doctor's offices, and laboratories.
>
> Similarly, in the USA it's normal to be able to get hiv medications
> from standard pharmacies.

I don't know about US or IN &  HIV drugs, but at least the US has laws
allowing pharmacies to refuse to fulfill prescriptions for “religious
objection” (
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a3amzp/in-these-states-pharmacists-can-refuse-to-fill-your-prescription-for-religious-beliefs 
) . Now-a-days that's mostly abortion, but it might be relevant

“This pharmacy will/will not fill perscriptions for $TREATMENT” is
something we could map in OSM. How should we do that?

But if they are only available from a few
> pharmacies in your country, you could add a tag like
> "hiv_medication=yes/no" to an "amenity=pharmacy" facility.
>
> It looks like "medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes" has been
> used in combination. That seems overlong and complex,  so it would not
> have been my first choice:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/medical_service%3Aantiretroviral_therapy

`hiv_{treatment,medication}=*` could work, but a more general approach
might be nice...

I think one issue is that healthcare tagging in OSM is a big of a mess.
There's the `healthcare`, `medical_service`, `health_service`,
`health_facility` etc. Some are probably from imports where someone
makes up a new tagging scheme, causing further fragmentation and confusion.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> ... Currently, what we are tagging is the
> hospital. So for example, Manila Hospital (tagged as a hospital) we add the
> tags like disease:hiv=yes. say that it is a treatment facility and it
> dispenses hiv medicine. But what i am having difficulty is that hiv
> facility is treated like a department. You can put in the email address and
> contact details of the hospital but if I add the contact details of the Hiv
> facility it then gets mixed with the hospital details.

Right, that doesn't work. If the HIV clinic or department has
different details, such as a different name, opening_hours, website,
etc, then it will need to be mapped as a separate feature, such as an
amenity=clinic node inside of the amenity=hospital area.

It's common for a big hospital or "medical center" to have many
clinics on the same property or even in the same building. My
residency clinic was in a building inside of Long Beach Medical
Center, which also contained a children's hospital, a nursing home,
labs, radiology, and a number of outpatient clinics in a series of
connected buildings.

Here in Indonesia, a public hospital will have an emergency
department, a surgical building, several buildings for inpatients, a
couple of outpatient clinics, pharmacy, laboratory, radiology, etc.

If you need to add different details for these sorts of features, then
map each as it's own node (or an area, for example if it has a
separate wing or whole building), and tag with amenity= or healthcare=
as appropriate.

> For hiv care - yes it is a bit of all a combination. I can't tagged it as a
> pharmacy as it only releases specific anti-retroviral drugs.

Any facility which dispenses prescription medication is a pharmacy, in
British and American understanding. Most countries regulate these like
a bigger pharmacy.

> Currently We are using this tagging system as assisted by the local OSM
> community in the Philippines.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HIV_Facilities_Tagging_(MapBeks)

That's a rather complicated system. A hospital which offers HIV
treatment is supposed to get all of these tags:

"amenity=hospital"
...
"disease:hiv=yes
"health_service:test=yes
"health_facility:dispensary=yes
"health_service:counselling=yes
"counselling_type:sexual=yes
"medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes
"medical_service:outpatient=yes
"description=DOH HIV Treatment Hub"

This seems overly complicated.

A few tags seem unnecessary or unclear:

"medical_service:outpatient=yes" - almost all hospitals offer
outpatient services.

"health_service:test=yes" - this is quite vague. It would be better to
use healthcare=laborator (as a node at the actual location of the
laboratory) or "hiv_test=yes" if only rapid HIV testing is offered
rather than a complete laboratory.

"health_facility:dispensary=yes" - if there is a pharmacy or a
dispensary, it would be better to tag this as "amenity=pharmacy" at
the actual location. I suppose if there is no pharmacist and it's just
a doctor's office or nurses who give out medications, then a shorter
tag like "dispensing=yes" would be proper to add to the clinic or
office. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dispensing

"description=DOH HIV Treatment Hub" - it would be better to add this
as a tag, like "hiv_treatment_hub=yes" rather than use description

(I also would not add healthcare=clinic or healthcare=hospital - just
use amenity=hospital or amenity=clinic, no need to add a second tag
with the same meaning.)

-- Joseph Eisenberg

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Warin]

On 13/4/20 7:27 pm, Rory McCann wrote:
> I think this is a case of “Things within other things”. How do we map
> that? For the enclosing hospital, we know how to map that. But how do
> we map individual parts within it?


Similar to universities?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=university#Faculties_and_departments

I'd use "department=*" as a subtag ... ???


I'd have to look at a university example where the departments location
was mapped with its details there.

>
> e.g. St. James' Hospital in Dublin (OSM:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/32015912 ), the hospital has it's
> own phone number, `website` etc. Within that is a HIV (& STI) clinic
> http://guideclinic.ie/ It has it's own website, and a specific
> location. How should that be tagged?
>
> Beumount Hospital ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/22634348 ) has
> is mapped and tagged. The Infection Disease service (
> http://www.beaumont.ie/index.jsp?p=105&n=227 ) is “located on the
> ground floor in St Johns ward”, and has a phone number & email
> address. How can we map this?
>
> OSM could do much better for indoor mapping, and for shopping centres
> or train stations, that's easy. Add each `shop` or corridor. But what
> about a (sorta of) clinic within a larger OSM object?

2 separate things.

Subtag the main facility with the capabilities that exist.


and/or


Map the locations of the individual departments with their capabilities
etc.

>
> On 13.04.20 10:48, Mikko Tamura wrote:
>> Thank you for the wonderful insights. Currently, what we are tagging
>> is the hospital. So for example, Manila Hospital (tagged as a
>> hospital) we add the tags like disease:hiv=yes. say that it is a
>> treatment facility and it dispenses hiv medicine. But what i am
>> having difficulty is that hiv facility is treated like a department.
>> You can put in the email address and contact details of the hospital
>> but if I add the contact details of the Hiv facility it then gets
>> mixed with the hospital details.
>> In this case A hospital can have a clinic specifically for HIV, and a
>> clinic can also have a small office for HIV patients (not
>> specifically another clinic).
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Joseph and Warin most. of the cases are really similar here.
>>
>> For treatment hubs - yes this is for inpatients similarly for the one
>> you described. This is are mostly hospitals but in some cases
>> clinics. My problem here is that a big hospital has alot of contact
>> details for the hospital so the information and contact details for
>> the hiv treatment facility are mixed.
>>
>> For hiv care - yes it is a bit of all a combination. I cant tagged it
>> as a pharmacy as it only releases specific anti-retroviral drugs.
>>
>> Currently We are using this tagging system as assisted by the local
>> OSM community in the Philippines.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HIV_Facilities_Tagging_(MapBeks)
>>
>> But I feel the feature gets overshadowed by the
>> hospital/clinic/social facility/office tag. Your thoughts would be
>> very helpful.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 3:58 PM Joseph Eisenberg
>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>      > Treatment hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing):
>>
>>     Are you sure you mean "inpatient?" An "inpatient" facility, in
>>     American English, is a hospital which has beds where patients are
>>     cared for overnight.
>>
>>     This would be mapped as amenity=hospital for the main feature, most
>>     likely.
>>
>>      > primary hiv care (dispensaries+testing)
>>
>>     You don't mention care by a nurse or physician, but I assume this is
>>     an amenity=clinic (with physicians and nurses) which also has an
>>     amenity=pharmacy in the same building. There might also be a
>>     healthcare=laboratory at the location.
>>
>>      > testing centers/clinics (testing only)
>>
>>     Is this a doctor's office, or is there just a nurse, or just a
>>     laboratory technician who can draw blood for the test? If there is a
>>     doctor, it might be an amenity=doctors. If there is just a
>> laboratory
>>     for testing, that would be a healthcare=laboratory facility.
>>
>>     For the speciality, it's possible to use something like
>>     healthcare:speciality=hiv if that's the only thing that the clinic
>>     treats.
>>
>>     But here in Indonesia and back in the USA most clinics that treat
>> HIV
>>     also offer treatment for other infectious  conditions, so a
>> different
>>     specialty like healthcare:speciality=infectious_diseases would
>> usually
>>     be more correct.
>>
>>     I see that in the Phillipines the tag "disease:hiv=yes" has been
>> used:
>>     https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/disease%3Ahiv#map
>>
>>     In Indonesia and the USA you can get an HIV test at just about any
>>     healthcare=laboratory and larger clinics and all hospitals. But
>> if you
>>     can only get this done at some specialized places in the
>> Phillipines,
>>     you could consider adding a tag like "hiv_testing=yes/no" for
>> clinics,
>>     doctor's offices, and laboratories.
>>
>>     Similarly, in the USA it's normal to be able to get hiv medications
>>     from standard pharmacies. But if they are only available from a few
>>     pharmacies in your country, you could add a tag like
>>     "hiv_medication=yes/no" to an "amenity=pharmacy" facility.
>>
>>     It looks like "medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes" has been
>>     used in combination. That seems overlong and complex,  so it
>> would not
>>     have been my first choice:
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/medical_service%3Aantiretroviral_therapy
>>
>>     -- Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>>     On 4/13/20, Warin <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>      > At present there is the key healtcare.
>>      >
>>      > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
>>      >
>>      > Some initial thoughts?
>>      >
>>      > healthcare:specialty=HIV_testing
>>      >
>>      > healthcare:specialty=HIV_treatment
>>      >
>>      > HIV dispensary ... would be a pharmacy?
>>      >
>>      > amenity
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:amenity>=pharmacy and
>>      > dispensing
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dispensing>=HIV
>>      >
>>      > ???Hopefully there will be better ideas.
>>      >
>>      > On 13/4/20 4:32 pm, Mikko Tamura wrote:
>>      >> Good day, fellow OSM tagging experts. I would like to ask
>> assistance
>>      >> in creating a tag for HIV facilities. We have created a tagging
>>     system
>>      >> for hiv facilities here in the Philippines but it seems to be
>> too
>>      >> extensive. We would like it to be more simple. I hope you can
>>     help me
>>      >> with it. I am reading the wiki page and Im having a
>> challenging time
>>      >> doing it.
>>      >>
>>      >> Some background: We have 3 types of HIV facilities/clinics.
>>     Treatment
>>      >> hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing), primary hiv care
>>      >> (dispensaries+testing) and testing centers/clinics (testing
>>     only). We
>>      >> have started tagging hospitals which have this features and
>>     honestly I
>>      >> am guessing this would eventually get mixed up with the other
>>     tagging
>>      >> like the contact number of the hospital, etc. Hopefully, we can
>>      >> represent it with a node with basic details specifically for
>> that
>>      >> clinic/department.
>>      >>
>>      >> Hope someone can guide us and thank you in advance.
>>      >> --
>>      >> *
>>      >> *
>>      >> *
>>      >> *
>>      >> *MIKKO L. TAMURA*
>>      >> /*Administrator*/
>>      >> /Map Beks Initiative/
>>      >> /
>>      >> /
>>      >> /*Externals Head*/
>>      >> /Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers/
>>      >> /
>>      >> /
>>      >> /*Volunteer Mapper*/
>>      >> /OpenStreetMap Philippines/
>>      >> *Contact Number: [phone]*
>>      >>
>>      >>
>>      >> _______________________________________________
>>      >> Tagging mailing list
>>      >> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Tagging mailing list
>>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *MIKKO L. TAMURA*
>> /*Administrator*/
>> /Map Beks Initiative/
>> /
>> /
>> /*Externals Head*/
>> /Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers/
>> /
>> /
>> /*Volunteer Mapper*/
>> /OpenStreetMap Philippines/

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Warin]

On 13/4/20 8:25 pm, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

... Currently, what we are tagging is the
hospital. So for example, Manila Hospital (tagged as a hospital) we add the
tags like disease:hiv=yes. say that it is a treatment facility and it
dispenses hiv medicine. But what i am having difficulty is that hiv
facility is treated like a department. You can put in the email address and
contact details of the hospital but if I add the contact details of the Hiv
facility it then gets mixed with the hospital details.

Right, that doesn't work. If the HIV clinic or department has
different details, such as a different name, opening_hours, website,
etc, then it will need to be mapped as a separate feature, such as an
amenity=clinic node inside of the amenity=hospital area.

amenity=clinic in OSM is defined in such a way as not to be useful in this way. 

It's common for a big hospital or "medical center" to have many
clinics on the same property or even in the same building. My
residency clinic was in a building inside of Long Beach Medical
Center, which also contained a children's hospital, a nursing home,
labs, radiology, and a number of outpatient clinics in a series of
connected buildings.

Here in Indonesia, a public hospital will have an emergency
department, a surgical building, several buildings for inpatients, a
couple of outpatient clinics, pharmacy, laboratory, radiology, etc.

If you need to add different details for these sorts of features, then
map each as it's own node (or an area, for example if it has a
separate wing or whole building), and tag with amenity= or healthcare=
as appropriate.

I'd go with healthcare. And I'd use department as that is similarly used with universities. 

For hiv care - yes it is a bit of all a combination. I can't tagged it as a
pharmacy as it only releases specific anti-retroviral drugs.

Any facility which dispenses prescription medication is a pharmacy, in
British and American understanding. Most countries regulate these like
a bigger pharmacy.

Currently We are using this tagging system as assisted by the local OSM
community in the Philippines.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HIV_Facilities_Tagging_(MapBeks)

That's a rather complicated system. A hospital which offers HIV
treatment is supposed to get all of these tags:

"amenity=hospital"
...
"disease:hiv=yes
"health_service:test=yes
"health_facility:dispensary=yes
"health_service:counselling=yes
"counselling_type:sexual=yes
"medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes
"medical_service:outpatient=yes
"description=DOH HIV Treatment Hub"

This seems overly complicated.

A few tags seem unnecessary or unclear:

"medical_service:outpatient=yes" - almost all hospitals offer
outpatient services.

"health_service:test=yes" - this is quite vague. It would be better to
use healthcare=laborator (as a node at the actual location of the
laboratory) or "hiv_test=yes" if only rapid HIV testing is offered
rather than a complete laboratory.

"health_facility:dispensary=yes" - if there is a pharmacy or a
dispensary, it would be better to tag this as "amenity=pharmacy" at
the actual location. I suppose if there is no pharmacist and it's just
a doctor's office or nurses who give out medications, then a shorter
tag like "dispensing=yes" would be proper to add to the clinic or
office. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dispensing

"description=DOH HIV Treatment Hub" - it would be better to add this
as a tag, like "hiv_treatment_hub=yes" rather than use description

(I also would not add healthcare=clinic or healthcare=hospital - just
use amenity=hospital or amenity=clinic, no need to add a second tag
with the same meaning.)

-- Joseph Eisenberg

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Ok, I do agree that "healthcare=department" or perhaps
"healthcare=hospital_department" would make sense for an inpatient
department within a larger hospital, since that is certainly not an
amenity=clinic (which are outpatient facilities).

It would not be a good idea to use a totally new key like
"department=" on a feature like this which could be mapped as an area,
since this will be difficult for database users, and because it would
be ambiguous if "healthcare" or similar is not included in the tag.

This would make sense for hospitals which have a whole "wing" or
separate building devoted to the surgical service, or obstetrics
(labor and delivery), or a pediatric department which is not a
separate hospital, or a special psychiatric ward, and so on.

For the original poster, it depends whether these HIV centres are
outpatient-only, in which case amenity=clinic is fine. If they admit
inpatients into a special part of the hospital, then a new tag like
healthcare=department / hospital_department is a good idea.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 4/13/20, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 13/4/20 7:27 pm, Rory McCann wrote:
>> I think this is a case of “Things within other things”. How do we map
>> that? For the enclosing hospital, we know how to map that. But how do
>> we map individual parts within it?
>
>
> Similar to universities?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=university#Faculties_and_departments
>
> I'd use "department=*" as a subtag ... ???
>
>
> I'd have to look at a university example where the departments location
> was mapped with its details there.
>
>>
>> e.g. St. James' Hospital in Dublin (OSM:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/32015912 ), the hospital has it's
>> own phone number, `website` etc. Within that is a HIV (& STI) clinic
>> http://guideclinic.ie/ It has it's own website, and a specific
>> location. How should that be tagged?
>>
>> Beumount Hospital ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/22634348 ) has
>> is mapped and tagged. The Infection Disease service (
>> http://www.beaumont.ie/index.jsp?p=105&n=227 ) is “located on the
>> ground floor in St Johns ward”, and has a phone number & email
>> address. How can we map this?
>>
>> OSM could do much better for indoor mapping, and for shopping centres
>> or train stations, that's easy. Add each `shop` or corridor. But what
>> about a (sorta of) clinic within a larger OSM object?
>
>
> 2 separate things.
>
> Subtag the main facility with the capabilities that exist.
>
>
> and/or
>
>
> Map the locations of the individual departments with their capabilities
> etc.
>
>
>
>>
>> On 13.04.20 10:48, Mikko Tamura wrote:
>>> Thank you for the wonderful insights. Currently, what we are tagging
>>> is the hospital. So for example, Manila Hospital (tagged as a
>>> hospital) we add the tags like disease:hiv=yes. say that it is a
>>> treatment facility and it dispenses hiv medicine. But what i am
>>> having difficulty is that hiv facility is treated like a department.
>>> You can put in the email address and contact details of the hospital
>>> but if I add the contact details of the Hiv facility it then gets
>>> mixed with the hospital details.
>>> In this case A hospital can have a clinic specifically for HIV, and a
>>> clinic can also have a small office for HIV patients (not
>>> specifically another clinic).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Joseph and Warin most. of the cases are really similar here.
>>>
>>> For treatment hubs - yes this is for inpatients similarly for the one
>>> you described. This is are mostly hospitals but in some cases
>>> clinics. My problem here is that a big hospital has alot of contact
>>> details for the hospital so the information and contact details for
>>> the hiv treatment facility are mixed.
>>>
>>> For hiv care - yes it is a bit of all a combination. I cant tagged it
>>> as a pharmacy as it only releases specific anti-retroviral drugs.
>>>
>>> Currently We are using this tagging system as assisted by the local
>>> OSM community in the Philippines.
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HIV_Facilities_Tagging_(MapBeks)
>>>
>>> But I feel the feature gets overshadowed by the
>>> hospital/clinic/social facility/office tag. Your thoughts would be
>>> very helpful.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 3:58 PM Joseph Eisenberg
>>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>      > Treatment hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing):
>>>
>>>     Are you sure you mean "inpatient?" An "inpatient" facility, in
>>>     American English, is a hospital which has beds where patients are
>>>     cared for overnight.
>>>
>>>     This would be mapped as amenity=hospital for the main feature, most
>>>     likely.
>>>
>>>      > primary hiv care (dispensaries+testing)
>>>
>>>     You don't mention care by a nurse or physician, but I assume this is
>>>     an amenity=clinic (with physicians and nurses) which also has an
>>>     amenity=pharmacy in the same building. There might also be a
>>>     healthcare=laboratory at the location.
>>>
>>>      > testing centers/clinics (testing only)
>>>
>>>     Is this a doctor's office, or is there just a nurse, or just a
>>>     laboratory technician who can draw blood for the test? If there is a
>>>     doctor, it might be an amenity=doctors. If there is just a
>>> laboratory
>>>     for testing, that would be a healthcare=laboratory facility.
>>>
>>>     For the speciality, it's possible to use something like
>>>     healthcare:speciality=hiv if that's the only thing that the clinic
>>>     treats.
>>>
>>>     But here in Indonesia and back in the USA most clinics that treat
>>> HIV
>>>     also offer treatment for other infectious  conditions, so a
>>> different
>>>     specialty like healthcare:speciality=infectious_diseases would
>>> usually
>>>     be more correct.
>>>
>>>     I see that in the Phillipines the tag "disease:hiv=yes" has been
>>> used:
>>>     https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/disease%3Ahiv#map
>>>
>>>     In Indonesia and the USA you can get an HIV test at just about any
>>>     healthcare=laboratory and larger clinics and all hospitals. But
>>> if you
>>>     can only get this done at some specialized places in the
>>> Phillipines,
>>>     you could consider adding a tag like "hiv_testing=yes/no" for
>>> clinics,
>>>     doctor's offices, and laboratories.
>>>
>>>     Similarly, in the USA it's normal to be able to get hiv medications
>>>     from standard pharmacies. But if they are only available from a few
>>>     pharmacies in your country, you could add a tag like
>>>     "hiv_medication=yes/no" to an "amenity=pharmacy" facility.
>>>
>>>     It looks like "medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes" has been
>>>     used in combination. That seems overlong and complex,  so it
>>> would not
>>>     have been my first choice:
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/medical_service%3Aantiretroviral_therapy
>>>
>>>     -- Joseph Eisenberg
>>>
>>>     On 4/13/20, Warin <[hidden email]
>>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>      > At present there is the key healtcare.
>>>      >
>>>      > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
>>>      >
>>>      > Some initial thoughts?
>>>      >
>>>      > healthcare:specialty=HIV_testing
>>>      >
>>>      > healthcare:specialty=HIV_treatment
>>>      >
>>>      > HIV dispensary ... would be a pharmacy?
>>>      >
>>>      > amenity
>>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:amenity>=pharmacy and
>>>      > dispensing
>>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dispensing>=HIV
>>>      >
>>>      > ???Hopefully there will be better ideas.
>>>      >
>>>      > On 13/4/20 4:32 pm, Mikko Tamura wrote:
>>>      >> Good day, fellow OSM tagging experts. I would like to ask
>>> assistance
>>>      >> in creating a tag for HIV facilities. We have created a tagging
>>>     system
>>>      >> for hiv facilities here in the Philippines but it seems to be
>>> too
>>>      >> extensive. We would like it to be more simple. I hope you can
>>>     help me
>>>      >> with it. I am reading the wiki page and Im having a
>>> challenging time
>>>      >> doing it.
>>>      >>
>>>      >> Some background: We have 3 types of HIV facilities/clinics.
>>>     Treatment
>>>      >> hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing), primary hiv care
>>>      >> (dispensaries+testing) and testing centers/clinics (testing
>>>     only). We
>>>      >> have started tagging hospitals which have this features and
>>>     honestly I
>>>      >> am guessing this would eventually get mixed up with the other
>>>     tagging
>>>      >> like the contact number of the hospital, etc. Hopefully, we can
>>>      >> represent it with a node with basic details specifically for
>>> that
>>>      >> clinic/department.
>>>      >>
>>>      >> Hope someone can guide us and thank you in advance.
>>>      >> --
>>>      >> *
>>>      >> *
>>>      >> *
>>>      >> *
>>>      >> *MIKKO L. TAMURA*
>>>      >> /*Administrator*/
>>>      >> /Map Beks Initiative/
>>>      >> /
>>>      >> /
>>>      >> /*Externals Head*/
>>>      >> /Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers/
>>>      >> /
>>>      >> /
>>>      >> /*Volunteer Mapper*/
>>>      >> /OpenStreetMap Philippines/
>>>      >> *Contact Number: [phone]*
>>>      >>
>>>      >>
>>>      >> _______________________________________________
>>>      >> Tagging mailing list
>>>      >> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>      >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>      >
>>>      >
>>>      >
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Tagging mailing list
>>>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *MIKKO L. TAMURA*
>>> /*Administrator*/
>>> /Map Beks Initiative/
>>> /
>>> /
>>> /*Externals Head*/
>>> /Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers/
>>> /
>>> /
>>> /*Volunteer Mapper*/
>>> /OpenStreetMap Philippines/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Kovoschiz]

>I think one issue is that healthcare tagging in OSM is a big of a mess.
There's the `healthcare`, `medical_service`, `health_service`,
`health_facility` etc. Some are probably from imports where someone
makes up a new tagging scheme, causing further fragmentation and confusion.

Seems the inactive/abandoned
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Healthcare_2.0, should
be the origin for some of the other tags, to which it is adopted/adapted. It
looks very complex, and had pushbacks at its time as well. To compare, there
are for example `disease:malaria=*`, `disease:ebola=*`, and some
`disease:covid19`, all in <1k use respectively.

>`hiv_{treatment,medication}=*` could work, but a more general approach
might be nice...

For the issue at hand, it may be clearer to consider "the thing to be
treated" (be it the virus, or the  virus disease), service, and facility
separately. Specialty is like a broader, higher-level, encompassing concept
that isn't really needed here yet.  

Think we can negate what a service or facility excludes in particular easily
(by a virus/disease key suffix, or conditional tags), after tagging the
viruses/diseases relevant to the object in general first. This beats having
to exhaustively list out what each service supports.


ebel wrote

> On 13.04.20 09:57, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>>> testing centers/clinics (testing only)
>>
>> Is this a doctor's office, or is there just a nurse, or just a
>> laboratory technician who can draw blood for the test? If there is a
>> doctor, it might be an amenity=doctors. If there is just a laboratory
>> for testing, that would be a healthcare=laboratory facility.
>
> What if there's HIV testing at a bar or nightclub? (I'm not joking.)
> Blood gets taken, but not tested there. “This place does HIV tests
> (between these hours)”. How would we tag that?
>
>> For the speciality, it's possible to use something like
>> healthcare:speciality=hiv if that's the only thing that the clinic
>> treats.
>>
>> But here in Indonesia and back in the USA most clinics that treat HIV
>> also offer treatment for other infectious  conditions, so a different
>> specialty like healthcare:speciality=infectious_diseases would usually
>> be more correct.
>>
>> I see that in the Phillipines the tag "disease:hiv=yes" has been used:
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/disease%3Ahiv#map
>>
>> In Indonesia and the USA you can get an HIV test at just about any
>> healthcare=laboratory and larger clinics and all hospitals. But if you
>> can only get this done at some specialized places in the Phillipines,
>> you could consider adding a tag like "hiv_testing=yes/no" for clinics,
>> doctor's offices, and laboratories.
>>
>> Similarly, in the USA it's normal to be able to get hiv medications
>> from standard pharmacies.
>
> I don't know about US or IN &  HIV drugs, but at least the US has laws
> allowing pharmacies to refuse to fulfill prescriptions for “religious
> objection” (
> https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a3amzp/in-these-states-pharmacists-can-refuse-to-fill-your-prescription-for-religious-beliefs 
> ) . Now-a-days that's mostly abortion, but it might be relevant
>
> “This pharmacy will/will not fill perscriptions for $TREATMENT” is
> something we could map in OSM. How should we do that?
>
> But if they are only available from a few
>> pharmacies in your country, you could add a tag like
>> "hiv_medication=yes/no" to an "amenity=pharmacy" facility.
>>
>> It looks like "medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes" has been
>> used in combination. That seems overlong and complex,  so it would not
>> have been my first choice:
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/medical_service%3Aantiretroviral_therapy
>
> `hiv_{treatment,medication}=*` could work, but a more general approach
> might be nice...
>
> I think one issue is that healthcare tagging in OSM is a big of a mess.
> There's the `healthcare`, `medical_service`, `health_service`,
> `health_facility` etc. Some are probably from imports where someone
> makes up a new tagging scheme, causing further fragmentation and
> confusion.
>
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> Tagging@

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[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 11:29, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Right, that doesn't work. If the HIV clinic or department has
different details, such as a different name, opening_hours, website,
etc, then it will need to be mapped as a separate feature, such as an
amenity=clinic node inside of the amenity=hospital area.

Thanks for giving your view of  the usage of amenity=clinic (and, by

implication, healthcare=clinic as the wiki states it's an alternative

to amenity=clinic).  The wiki pages for healthcare=clinic and

amenity=clinic don't seem to explicitly state that these tags are

appropriate for units/departments/centres of hospitals.

I agree with your view.  The value "clinic" may not have been the best we

could have chosen but there doesn't seem to be any other value to use

for the X-ray department, diabetes centre, renal dialysis unit, etc. of a

hospital. Before the current crisis I was mapping my nearest general

hospital and using amenity=clinic + healthcare=clinic in this way.

The only reason to think otherwise is that the wiki page on healthcare

lists only two specialities for clinics: abortion and fertility, indicating that

at least one person considered clinics to be standalone and not normally

part of hospitals.

So what's the consensus on clinics?  If there is a consenus (rather than the

usual bunfight) I'll amend the wiki pages to make it explicit that clinic

can be used for units/departments/centres in hospitals.

--

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[Mikko Tamura]

I think a department or a small office is a better primary tag for hiv treatment centers/ testing/ dispensary. Usually in our case in the Philippines, a small building has a clinic and in that clinic there is a small office space or room/s for hiv testing and for dispensing. 

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 9:16 PM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 11:29, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Right, that doesn't work. If the HIV clinic or department has
different details, such as a different name, opening_hours, website,
etc, then it will need to be mapped as a separate feature, such as an
amenity=clinic node inside of the amenity=hospital area.

Thanks for giving your view of  the usage of amenity=clinic (and, by

implication, healthcare=clinic as the wiki states it's an alternative

to amenity=clinic).  The wiki pages for healthcare=clinic and

amenity=clinic don't seem to explicitly state that these tags are

appropriate for units/departments/centres of hospitals.

I agree with your view.  The value "clinic" may not have been the best we

could have chosen but there doesn't seem to be any other value to use

for the X-ray department, diabetes centre, renal dialysis unit, etc. of a

hospital. Before the current crisis I was mapping my nearest general

hospital and using amenity=clinic + healthcare=clinic in this way.

The only reason to think otherwise is that the wiki page on healthcare

lists only two specialities for clinics: abortion and fertility, indicating that

at least one person considered clinics to be standalone and not normally

part of hospitals.

So what's the consensus on clinics?  If there is a consenus (rather than the

usual bunfight) I'll amend the wiki pages to make it explicit that clinic

can be used for units/departments/centres in hospitals.

--

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On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 12:30, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, I do agree that "healthcare=department" or perhaps
"healthcare=hospital_department" would make sense for an inpatient
department within a larger hospital, since that is certainly not an
amenity=clinic (which are outpatient facilities).

Some may be both for inpatients and outpatients.  Like X-ray.  If you insist

on a separate value for use when the facility is within a hospital and may be

used by inpatients, then I suspect carto people are going to say "no

synonyms."

What is needed, though, is a tag for hospital wards.  By "wards" I mean how

the term is used in British English and not as stated by

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital#Departments_or_wards

In British English a ward is a collection of beds for inpatients.  Some

specialized wards may be clinics/departments as well as collections

of beds, but most are effectively dormitories.  My nearest general hospital

has 20 wards scattered around a large complex and it would be nice

for people visiting patients to be able to see where they are on a map.

--

Paul

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[Joseph Eisenberg]

>  I suspect carto people are going to say "no synonyms."

While synonyms are a bad idea, we are talking about something that is
NOT a synonym: an inpatient department of a hospital, rather than a
clinic or doctor's office.

> What is needed, though, is a tag for hospital wards.

That might also be useful. Could you explain the difference between
"department" and "ward" in British English usage?

I found a page with a list of departments at NHS hospitals, so
apparently both words are used to mean something different:

https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health-services/nhs/a4502/a-to-z-of-hospital-departments/

BTW, what is the most common term for an "emergency department" in the UK?

Is it still "Emergency Ward" or "Accident and Emergency Ward" or
something different

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 4/13/20, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 12:30, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Ok, I do agree that "healthcare=department" or perhaps
>> "healthcare=hospital_department" would make sense for an inpatient
>> department within a larger hospital, since that is certainly not an
>> amenity=clinic (which are outpatient facilities).
>>
>
> Some may be both for inpatients and outpatients.  Like X-ray.  If you
> insist
> on a separate value for use when the facility is within a hospital and may
> be
> used by inpatients, then I suspect carto people are going to say "no
> synonyms."
>
> What is needed, though, is a tag for hospital wards.  By "wards" I mean how
> the term is used in British English and not as stated by
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital#Departments_or_wards
> In British English a ward is a collection of beds for inpatients.  Some
> specialized wards may be clinics/departments as well as collections
> of beds, but most are effectively dormitories.  My nearest general hospital
> has 20 wards scattered around a large complex and it would be nice
> for people visiting patients to be able to see where they are on a map.
>
> --
> Paul
>

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[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 15:09, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  I suspect carto people are going to say "no synonyms."

While synonyms are a bad idea, we are talking about something that is
NOT a synonym: an inpatient department of a hospital, rather than a
clinic or doctor's office.

Since you're double-hatted, I'm happy to go along with you there.  Umm,

triple-hatted - tagging, carto and medical.  Come up with a new

healthcare=* and I'll replace the healthcare=clinic I was using for

lack of anything better.  Doesn't matter if it doesn't render yet

because everything has been re-arranged in hospitals and won't

return to normal for many months (if ever).

> What is needed, though, is a tag for hospital wards.

That might also be useful. Could you explain the difference between
"department" and "ward" in British English usage?

In BE usage, wards are where inpatients sleep.  Departments are things

like the X-ray unit, diabetes centre, renal dialysis unit, endoscopy, outpatient

department, chemotherapy day unit and outpatients department (all actual

names of departments at my nearest general hospital).  Going by wikipedia,

it seems likely that BE wards may be known as inpatient wards elsewhere.

I found a page with a list of departments at NHS hospitals, so
apparently both words are used to mean something different:

https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health-services/nhs/a4502/a-to-z-of-hospital-departments/

That page doesn't explicitly define what a ward is in BE, but if you search for

the word "ward" on the page it is clear from context that a ward is where inpatients

sleep.

Another thing that page mentions is a discharge lounge.  It's not where you

get some sort of medical treatment, like endoscopy or X-ray or renal dialysis,

nor is it a place to sleep.  It's where they put you after they've decided

you're no longer ill enough to occupy a bed on a ward and you're awaiting

collection by somebody (possibly hospital transport if your circumstances

warrant it).  The one at my nearest general hospital had 12 chairs (each

with accompanying adjustable table of the type that accompanies ward

beds) and a couple of hospital beds.  It had a nurse or nursing assistant

in charge, in case somebody had a relapse.  Somebody from the pharmacy

would hand patients take-home medications as required.  Worth mapping (so

whoever is picking you up can figure out where to go and park), but probably

requires a different healthcare=* value and a different carto icon.  See

https://www.uhb.nhs.uk/discharge-lounge.htm for details of a

discharge lounge in the UK (fancier than the one at my nearest general

hospital).

BTW, what is the most common term for an "emergency department" in the UK?

Is it still "Emergency Ward" or "Accident and Emergency Ward" or
something different

The terms "casualty" and "emergency ward" are still in use by the public but

hospitals themselves call them A&E.

Which reminds me, cottage hospitals (small, minor hospitals) don't have an

A&E but may have a minor injuries unit.  If you lopped your hand off with a

chainsaw you need an A&E but if you put a big gash in your hand that

won't stop bleeding a minor injuries unit can handle it.

https://www.myhealth.london.nhs.uk/faq/minor-injury-units-mius

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[Lukas-458]

So what's the consensus on clinics?  If there is a consenus (rather than the

usual bunfight) I'll amend the wiki pages to make it explicit that clinic

can be used for units/departments/centres in hospitals.

 

I even do not know whether there is a consensus. In Germany, we use "amenity=clinic" often for everything which has not "hospital" (in german) in their name but looks like a hospital, often the difference is just emergency=no. Many of them are healthcare=rehabilitation, is amenity=clinic then still fitting also with that?

 

Lukas

 

 

Gesendet: Montag, 13. April 2020 um 15:14 Uhr
Von: "Paul Allen" <[hidden email]>
An: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Request for assistance in creating a tag.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 11:29, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

Right, that doesn't work. If the HIV clinic or department has
different details, such as a different name, opening_hours, website,
etc, then it will need to be mapped as a separate feature, such as an
amenity=clinic node inside of the amenity=hospital area.

 

Thanks for giving your view of  the usage of amenity=clinic (and, by

implication, healthcare=clinic as the wiki states it's an alternative

to amenity=clinic).  The wiki pages for healthcare=clinic and

amenity=clinic don't seem to explicitly state that these tags are

appropriate for units/departments/centres of hospitals.

 

I agree with your view.  The value "clinic" may not have been the best we

could have chosen but there doesn't seem to be any other value to use

for the X-ray department, diabetes centre, renal dialysis unit, etc. of a

hospital. Before the current crisis I was mapping my nearest general

hospital and using amenity=clinic + healthcare=clinic in this way.

 

The only reason to think otherwise is that the wiki page on healthcare

lists only two specialities for clinics: abortion and fertility, indicating that

at least one person considered clinics to be standalone and not normally

part of hospitals.

 

So what's the consensus on clinics?  If there is a consenus (rather than the

usual bunfight) I'll amend the wiki pages to make it explicit that clinic

can be used for units/departments/centres in hospitals.

 

--

Paul

 

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[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 17:48, <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

I even do not know whether there is a consensus.

 Not yet.  Maybe never.

 

In Germany, we use "amenity=clinic" often for everything which has not "hospital" (in german) in their name but looks like a hospital, often the difference is just emergency=no.

That sounds like the distinction between what the UK calls a general hospital

(big, with emergency unit) and a cottage hospital (small, with only a minor

injuries unit).  Both have inpatient beds.  Both have "hospital" in their names.

But in the UK we're moving away from cottage hospitals to "Integrated Care

Centres."  They include much of what a cottage hospital did and also other

things like a doctors' general practice and social workers.  But, crucially,

no inpatient beds.  They're not called hospitals by the health boards and the

public don't think of them as hospitals because there are no beds.  They

include departments that would be tagged as clinics in their own right

if they were stand-alone, such as X-ray and physiotherapy.  Too big

to be tagged as a clinic, no beds so they're not a hospital.

Something else we could use a tag for.  We either need to be able to

specify hospital types such as general and cottage, then hammer the

square peg of an integrated care centre into the round hole of a

type of hospital or we need healthcare=integrated_care_centre.

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[Warin]

On 13/4/20 9:28 pm, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

Ok, I do agree that "healthcare=department" or perhaps
"healthcare=hospital_department" would make sense for an inpatient
department within a larger hospital, since that is certainly not an
amenity=clinic (which are outpatient facilities).

It would not be a good idea to use a totally new key like
"department=" on a feature like this which could be mapped as an area,
since this will be difficult for database users, and because it would
be ambiguous if "healthcare" or similar is not included in the tag.

It would be a good idea if the tag/s developed here could be used with other things that have 'departments' such as universities. 

Hence my suggestion of 'department', as a key it is used some 799 times .. fairly good for something that is not well documented. 

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Duniversity#Faculties_and_departments

This would make sense for hospitals which have a whole "wing" or
separate building devoted to the surgical service, or obstetrics
(labor and delivery), or a pediatric department which is not a
separate hospital, or a special psychiatric ward, and so on.

I don't see the necessity for a 'whole wing'. I would think that they typically would have a defined area, however big or small it is. 

For the original poster, it depends whether these HIV centres are
outpatient-only, in which case amenity=clinic is fine. If they admit
inpatients into a special part of the hospital, then a new tag like
healthcare=department / hospital_department is a good idea.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 4/13/20, Warin [hidden email] wrote:

On 13/4/20 7:27 pm, Rory McCann wrote:

I think this is a case of “Things within other things”. How do we map
that? For the enclosing hospital, we know how to map that. But how do
we map individual parts within it?

Similar to universities?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=university#Faculties_and_departments

I'd use "department=*" as a subtag ... ???


I'd have to look at a university example where the departments location
was mapped with its details there.

e.g. St. James' Hospital in Dublin (OSM:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/32015912 ), the hospital has it's
own phone number, `website` etc. Within that is a HIV (& STI) clinic
http://guideclinic.ie/ It has it's own website, and a specific
location. How should that be tagged?

Beumount Hospital ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/22634348 ) has
is mapped and tagged. The Infection Disease service (
http://www.beaumont.ie/index.jsp?p=105&n=227 ) is “located on the
ground floor in St Johns ward”, and has a phone number & email
address. How can we map this?

OSM could do much better for indoor mapping, and for shopping centres
or train stations, that's easy. Add each `shop` or corridor. But what
about a (sorta of) clinic within a larger OSM object?

2 separate things.

Subtag the main facility with the capabilities that exist.


and/or


Map the locations of the individual departments with their capabilities
etc.

On 13.04.20 10:48, Mikko Tamura wrote:

Thank you for the wonderful insights. Currently, what we are tagging
is the hospital. So for example, Manila Hospital (tagged as a
hospital) we add the tags like disease:hiv=yes. say that it is a
treatment facility and it dispenses hiv medicine. But what i am
having difficulty is that hiv facility is treated like a department.
You can put in the email address and contact details of the hospital
but if I add the contact details of the Hiv facility it then gets
mixed with the hospital details.
In this case A hospital can have a clinic specifically for HIV, and a
clinic can also have a small office for HIV patients (not
specifically another clinic).



Thanks Joseph and Warin most. of the cases are really similar here.

For treatment hubs - yes this is for inpatients similarly for the one
you described. This is are mostly hospitals but in some cases
clinics. My problem here is that a big hospital has alot of contact
details for the hospital so the information and contact details for
the hiv treatment facility are mixed.

For hiv care - yes it is a bit of all a combination. I cant tagged it
as a pharmacy as it only releases specific anti-retroviral drugs.

Currently We are using this tagging system as assisted by the local
OSM community in the Philippines.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HIV_Facilities_Tagging_(MapBeks)

But I feel the feature gets overshadowed by the
hospital/clinic/social facility/office tag. Your thoughts would be
very helpful.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 3:58 PM Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email] [hidden email]> wrote:

     > Treatment hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing):

    Are you sure you mean "inpatient?" An "inpatient" facility, in
    American English, is a hospital which has beds where patients are
    cared for overnight.

    This would be mapped as amenity=hospital for the main feature, most
    likely.

     > primary hiv care (dispensaries+testing)

    You don't mention care by a nurse or physician, but I assume this is
    an amenity=clinic (with physicians and nurses) which also has an
    amenity=pharmacy in the same building. There might also be a
    healthcare=laboratory at the location.

     > testing centers/clinics (testing only)

    Is this a doctor's office, or is there just a nurse, or just a
    laboratory technician who can draw blood for the test? If there is a
    doctor, it might be an amenity=doctors. If there is just a
laboratory
    for testing, that would be a healthcare=laboratory facility.

    For the speciality, it's possible to use something like
    healthcare:speciality=hiv if that's the only thing that the clinic
    treats.

    But here in Indonesia and back in the USA most clinics that treat
HIV
    also offer treatment for other infectious  conditions, so a
different
    specialty like healthcare:speciality=infectious_diseases would
usually
    be more correct.

    I see that in the Phillipines the tag "disease:hiv=yes" has been
used:
    https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/disease%3Ahiv#map

    In Indonesia and the USA you can get an HIV test at just about any
    healthcare=laboratory and larger clinics and all hospitals. But
if you
    can only get this done at some specialized places in the
Phillipines,
    you could consider adding a tag like "hiv_testing=yes/no" for
clinics,
    doctor's offices, and laboratories.

    Similarly, in the USA it's normal to be able to get hiv medications
    from standard pharmacies. But if they are only available from a few
    pharmacies in your country, you could add a tag like
    "hiv_medication=yes/no" to an "amenity=pharmacy" facility.

    It looks like "medical_service:antiretroviral_therapy=yes" has been
    used in combination. That seems overlong and complex,  so it
would not
    have been my first choice:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/medical_service%3Aantiretroviral_therapy

    -- Joseph Eisenberg

    On 4/13/20, Warin <[hidden email]
    [hidden email]> wrote:
     > At present there is the key healtcare.
     >
     > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
     >
     > Some initial thoughts?
     >
     > healthcare:specialty=HIV_testing
     >
     > healthcare:specialty=HIV_treatment
     >
     > HIV dispensary ... would be a pharmacy?
     >
     > amenity
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:amenity>=pharmacy and
     > dispensing
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dispensing>=HIV
     >
     > ???Hopefully there will be better ideas.
     >
     > On 13/4/20 4:32 pm, Mikko Tamura wrote:
     >> Good day, fellow OSM tagging experts. I would like to ask
assistance
     >> in creating a tag for HIV facilities. We have created a tagging
    system
     >> for hiv facilities here in the Philippines but it seems to be
too
     >> extensive. We would like it to be more simple. I hope you can
    help me
     >> with it. I am reading the wiki page and Im having a
challenging time
     >> doing it.
     >>
     >> Some background: We have 3 types of HIV facilities/clinics.
    Treatment
     >> hubs (in patient + dispensaries+ testing), primary hiv care
     >> (dispensaries+testing) and testing centers/clinics (testing
    only). We
     >> have started tagging hospitals which have this features and
    honestly I
     >> am guessing this would eventually get mixed up with the other
    tagging
     >> like the contact number of the hospital, etc. Hopefully, we can
     >> represent it with a node with basic details specifically for
that
     >> clinic/department.
     >>
     >> Hope someone can guide us and thank you in advance.
     >> --
     >> *
     >> *
     >> *
     >> *
     >> *MIKKO L. TAMURA*
     >> /*Administrator*/
     >> /Map Beks Initiative/
     >> /
     >> /
     >> /*Externals Head*/
     >> /Pilipinas Chubs X Chasers/
     >> /
     >> /
     >> /*Volunteer Mapper*/
     >> /OpenStreetMap Philippines/
     >> *Contact Number: [phone]*
     >>
     >>
     >> _______________________________________________
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     >
     >
     >

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*
*
*
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/*Administrator*/
/Map Beks Initiative/
/
/
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/
/
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On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 23:31, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It would be a good idea if the tag/s developed here could be used with other things that have 'departments' such as universities.

Hence my suggestion of 'department', as a key it is used some 799 times .. 

You'd have great difficulty persuading iD to support it.  The problem is that different

types of organization (hospitals, universities, etc.) have different types of

departments.  This would lead to a page documenting department=* values

being split across two or more tables for humans to understand more easily.

But iD tends to populate its drop-downs from wikidata or wiki pages, meaning

that you'd have a big drop-down filled with every type of department,

irrespective of the type of organization.  That makes it hard to use, and

is why iD will almost certainly refuse to support it.

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