Road blocks?

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Road blocks?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Hi

Council are currently doing a lot of storm water drainage works in our area so various roads will be closed off for some time (several months).

Probably a silly question I know, but I'm not assuming :-), but will dropping one of these https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Abarrier%3Djersey_barrier, each side of the works, stop routers from directing traffic up that street?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Road blocks?

Anton Klim
Seeing the tag for the first time, but it's on the wiki so some router should support it. 
I usually drop a simple barrier=block on the way, with a fixme and check_date for an approximate works end date. 
Keep in mind that quite a lot of end user apps like mapsme and osmand only update data once in a while, so a temporary block might extend beyond what's intended. 

Ant

24.12.2018, 4:46, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>:

Hi

Council are currently doing a lot of storm water drainage works in our area so various roads will be closed off for some time (several months).

Probably a silly question I know, but I'm not assuming :-), but will dropping one of these https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Abarrier%3Djersey_barrier, each side of the works, stop routers from directing traffic up that street?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Road blocks?

Philip Barnes
On Mon, 2018-12-24 at 11:31 +0300, Anton Klim wrote:
Seeing the tag for the first time, but it's on the wiki so some router should support it. 
I usually drop a simple barrier=block on the way, with a fixme and check_date for an approximate works end date. 
Keep in mind that quite a lot of end user apps like mapsme and osmand only update data once in a while, so a temporary block might extend beyond what's intended. 

I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but also take into account what the restriction applies to. If the route remains open to pedestrians/cyclists then use appropriate access tags, for example motor_vehicle=no rather than access=no.

Phil (trigpoint)



Ant

24.12.2018, 4:46, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>:

Hi

Council are currently doing a lot of storm water drainage works in our area so various roads will be closed off for some time (several months).

Probably a silly question I know, but I'm not assuming :-), but will dropping one of these https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Abarrier%3Djersey_barrier, each side of the works, stop routers from directing traffic up that street?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: Road blocks?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Anton Klim

Thanks fellas!

On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 at 18:33, Anton Klim <[hidden email]> wrote:
Seeing the tag for the first time, but it's on the wiki so some router should support it. 
I usually drop a simple barrier=block on the way, with a fixme and check_date for an approximate works end date.

No, I've never thought about the technicalities of how they actually work either!

Would a single =block, block the full width of the road, or would it need one in each lane?

Guess it might be a case of suck it & see! 

Keep in mind that quite a lot of end user apps like mapsme and osmand only update data once in a while, so a temporary block might extend beyond what's intended. 

True. Osmand seems to update once every month or two (at least in Australia) so there will be an overlap. However, these closures are expected to be in place for ~8 months :-(, so shouldn't be that big an issue 

On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 at 20:16, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but also take into account what the restriction applies to. If the route remains open to pedestrians/cyclists then use appropriate access tags, for example motor_vehicle=no rather than access=no.

All suggestions always gratefully accepted! :-)

Roads are cut to all private vehicles, Council vehicles can enter the work zone but not get all the way through (as there's a 20' wide trench across the road!). Pedestrians & cyclists can get through on one side only, across a temporary footbridge - guess I need to add that in as well?

Thanks Graeme

PS Merry Christmas!

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Re: Road blocks?

Anton Klim
A single barrier= node of your choice would generally block the way it’s dropped on. If the street/lanes are drawn with separate ways, you might need more nodes/a barrier= way.
Phil is right to point out there might be different conditions of passage, so adding the temporary footbridge would help pedestrian routing. 
Indeed merry Christmas to those celebrating.

Ant

25 дек. 2018 г., в 2:03, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]>:


Thanks fellas!

On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 at 18:33, Anton Klim <[hidden email]> wrote:
Seeing the tag for the first time, but it's on the wiki so some router should support it. 
I usually drop a simple barrier=block on the way, with a fixme and check_date for an approximate works end date.

No, I've never thought about the technicalities of how they actually work either!

Would a single =block, block the full width of the road, or would it need one in each lane?

Guess it might be a case of suck it & see! 

Keep in mind that quite a lot of end user apps like mapsme and osmand only update data once in a while, so a temporary block might extend beyond what's intended. 

True. Osmand seems to update once every month or two (at least in Australia) so there will be an overlap. However, these closures are expected to be in place for ~8 months :-(, so shouldn't be that big an issue 

On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 at 20:16, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but also take into account what the restriction applies to. If the route remains open to pedestrians/cyclists then use appropriate access tags, for example motor_vehicle=no rather than access=no.

All suggestions always gratefully accepted! :-)

Roads are cut to all private vehicles, Council vehicles can enter the work zone but not get all the way through (as there's a 20' wide trench across the road!). Pedestrians & cyclists can get through on one side only, across a temporary footbridge - guess I need to add that in as well?

Thanks Graeme

PS Merry Christmas!
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Re: Road blocks?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick


sent from a phone

> On 25. Dec 2018, at 00:03, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Roads are cut to all private vehicles, Council vehicles can enter the work zone but not get all the way through (as there's a 20' wide trench across the road!). Pedestrians & cyclists can get through on one side only, across a temporary footbridge - guess I need to add that in as well?


yes, if you decided to add the temporary variations it seems consequential to do add pedestrian specifics as well.

I would not count on the node barrier alone for banning public traffic, the ways should also get a tag about the current status, e.g. highway=construction and construction=*

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Road blocks?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Tue, 25 Dec 2018 at 09:03, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Guess it might be a case of suck it & see! 

So, after a couple of weeks of experimenting & playing with various blocking options, then checking them with OSRM & GraphHopper (which incidentally, brings up some pretty strange results - I'm even tempted to ignore it's results altogether?) by attempting to route through the roadworks area, I can report back.

If anybody would like to experiment themselves, the spot I was using is here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-28.07477/153.43936, with the various blocks being positioned between house number 77 (Mountain View Avenue) at the western corner Ernie Tebb Park, & the unmarked crossing / painted island, between the Park & the lake.

I was then attempting to route from "12, Honeyeater Drive, Miami, Gold Coast, Queensland, 4220, Australia" to "20, Nobby Parade, Miami, Gold Coast, Queensland, 4220, Australia", which is a very simple, quite direct route.

Unfortunately, when I say that GraphHopper was giving strange results, especially for foot & bicycle, it was doing this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=graphhopper_foot&route=-28.07561%2C153.43761%3B-28.07433%2C153.44100.
If this can't be seen, it has foot traffic walking North up Honeyeater Drive, East down Mountain View Avenue along the road, not the adjacent footpath, going the wrong way round the roundabout, continuing down & turning South into Babbler Court, then immediately coming back West along the Mountain View Avenue footpath till just before the roundabout, where it crosses Mountain View Avenue at the footway=crossing + crossing=unmarked, follows the round the corner into Nobby Parade, then crosses at another crossing, before continuing North along the footpath to the destination.

Bicycle routing is identical, except that it goes the correct way around the roundabout, before getting onto the footpath!

So FYI, the results of my testing were:

1. single barrier=yes (on the road - the actual marked highway=tertiary); access=no: didn't render; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

2. single barrier=block (on the road); access=no: rendered as dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

3. row of barrier=block across both lanes; access=no; rendered as row of dots; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

4. barrier=bollard (one only on road); access=no: rendered as single dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

5. row of barrier=bollard across both lanes; access=no; rendered as row of dots; vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

6. single barrier=jersey_barrier (on road); access=no: rendered as dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

7. row of barrier= jersey_barrier  across both lanes; access=no; rendered as row of dots; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

8. single barrier=gate (on road); access=no: rendered as dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

7. barrier=fence (across full width of road); access=no: rendered on both sides of the road, but not across the road itself; vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

8. barrier=gate in barrier=fence in middle of roadway; access=no on both; gate didn't render, fence still only visible on both sides of the road, but not across the road itself;  vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

9. barrier=ditch (across full width of road); access=no; didn't render; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

10. Least favourable option by far :-( 
Split the road & cut a small (~5m) section out; shows as two road endings actually touching; vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

Increase gap to ~20m; gap shown in road; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access in either router, after a small gap did block OSRM?

Increase road gap to ~50m by cutting it at corner of Honeyeater Drive, so whole section of road has disappeared; everything is stopped from going that way, including foot & bike, even though there's a marked footpath along the side of the road?

Unless I've been doing something wrong with the way I've been placing the various blocks, this has got me totally confused?

Why do we have the various blocking options if they don't actually stop you driving through them?

Both routers show foot traffic walking along the length of the road, not the adjacent footpath - why?

Anybody have any ideas, or should it all be working OK, & it's just a peculiarity of OSRM / GraphHopper that's been throwing me out?

Looking forward to any insights! :-)

Thanks

Graeme




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Re: Road blocks?

Joseph Eisenberg
Graphhhopper does not update the database instantaneously. I believe you will need to wait some time before the routing matches the database: days, not hours.
On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 9:09 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, 25 Dec 2018 at 09:03, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Guess it might be a case of suck it & see! 

So, after a couple of weeks of experimenting & playing with various blocking options, then checking them with OSRM & GraphHopper (which incidentally, brings up some pretty strange results - I'm even tempted to ignore it's results altogether?) by attempting to route through the roadworks area, I can report back.

If anybody would like to experiment themselves, the spot I was using is here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-28.07477/153.43936, with the various blocks being positioned between house number 77 (Mountain View Avenue) at the western corner Ernie Tebb Park, & the unmarked crossing / painted island, between the Park & the lake.

I was then attempting to route from "12, Honeyeater Drive, Miami, Gold Coast, Queensland, 4220, Australia" to "20, Nobby Parade, Miami, Gold Coast, Queensland, 4220, Australia", which is a very simple, quite direct route.

Unfortunately, when I say that GraphHopper was giving strange results, especially for foot & bicycle, it was doing this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=graphhopper_foot&route=-28.07561%2C153.43761%3B-28.07433%2C153.44100.
If this can't be seen, it has foot traffic walking North up Honeyeater Drive, East down Mountain View Avenue along the road, not the adjacent footpath, going the wrong way round the roundabout, continuing down & turning South into Babbler Court, then immediately coming back West along the Mountain View Avenue footpath till just before the roundabout, where it crosses Mountain View Avenue at the footway=crossing + crossing=unmarked, follows the round the corner into Nobby Parade, then crosses at another crossing, before continuing North along the footpath to the destination.

Bicycle routing is identical, except that it goes the correct way around the roundabout, before getting onto the footpath!

So FYI, the results of my testing were:

1. single barrier=yes (on the road - the actual marked highway=tertiary); access=no: didn't render; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

2. single barrier=block (on the road); access=no: rendered as dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

3. row of barrier=block across both lanes; access=no; rendered as row of dots; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

4. barrier=bollard (one only on road); access=no: rendered as single dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

5. row of barrier=bollard across both lanes; access=no; rendered as row of dots; vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

6. single barrier=jersey_barrier (on road); access=no: rendered as dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

7. row of barrier= jersey_barrier  across both lanes; access=no; rendered as row of dots; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

8. single barrier=gate (on road); access=no: rendered as dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

7. barrier=fence (across full width of road); access=no: rendered on both sides of the road, but not across the road itself; vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

8. barrier=gate in barrier=fence in middle of roadway; access=no on both; gate didn't render, fence still only visible on both sides of the road, but not across the road itself;  vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

9. barrier=ditch (across full width of road); access=no; didn't render; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

10. Least favourable option by far :-( 
Split the road & cut a small (~5m) section out; shows as two road endings actually touching; vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

Increase gap to ~20m; gap shown in road; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access in either router, after a small gap did block OSRM?

Increase road gap to ~50m by cutting it at corner of Honeyeater Drive, so whole section of road has disappeared; everything is stopped from going that way, including foot & bike, even though there's a marked footpath along the side of the road?

Unless I've been doing something wrong with the way I've been placing the various blocks, this has got me totally confused?

Why do we have the various blocking options if they don't actually stop you driving through them?

Both routers show foot traffic walking along the length of the road, not the adjacent footpath - why?

Anybody have any ideas, or should it all be working OK, & it's just a peculiarity of OSRM / GraphHopper that's been throwing me out?

Looking forward to any insights! :-)

Thanks

Graeme



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Re: Road blocks?

Anton Klim
Yep, looks like it might be a router data issue rather than a router issue. 
Maybe try OsmAnd Live if you have an android device, or find an alternative osm router that updates faster

12.01.2019, 0:15, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:

Graphhhopper does not update the database instantaneously. I believe you will need to wait some time before the routing matches the database: days, not hours.
On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 9:09 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, 25 Dec 2018 at 09:03, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Guess it might be a case of suck it & see! 

So, after a couple of weeks of experimenting & playing with various blocking options, then checking them with OSRM & GraphHopper (which incidentally, brings up some pretty strange results - I'm even tempted to ignore it's results altogether?) by attempting to route through the roadworks area, I can report back.

If anybody would like to experiment themselves, the spot I was using is here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-28.07477/153.43936, with the various blocks being positioned between house number 77 (Mountain View Avenue) at the western corner Ernie Tebb Park, & the unmarked crossing / painted island, between the Park & the lake.

I was then attempting to route from "12, Honeyeater Drive, Miami, Gold Coast, Queensland, 4220, Australia" to "20, Nobby Parade, Miami, Gold Coast, Queensland, 4220, Australia", which is a very simple, quite direct route.

Unfortunately, when I say that GraphHopper was giving strange results, especially for foot & bicycle, it was doing this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=graphhopper_foot&route=-28.07561%2C153.43761%3B-28.07433%2C153.44100.
If this can't be seen, it has foot traffic walking North up Honeyeater Drive, East down Mountain View Avenue along the road, not the adjacent footpath, going the wrong way round the roundabout, continuing down & turning South into Babbler Court, then immediately coming back West along the Mountain View Avenue footpath till just before the roundabout, where it crosses Mountain View Avenue at the footway=crossing + crossing=unmarked, follows the round the corner into Nobby Parade, then crosses at another crossing, before continuing North along the footpath to the destination.

Bicycle routing is identical, except that it goes the correct way around the roundabout, before getting onto the footpath!

So FYI, the results of my testing were:

1. single barrier=yes (on the road - the actual marked highway=tertiary); access=no: didn't render; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

2. single barrier=block (on the road); access=no: rendered as dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

3. row of barrier=block across both lanes; access=no; rendered as row of dots; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

4. barrier=bollard (one only on road); access=no: rendered as single dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

5. row of barrier=bollard across both lanes; access=no; rendered as row of dots; vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

6. single barrier=jersey_barrier (on road); access=no: rendered as dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

7. row of barrier= jersey_barrier  across both lanes; access=no; rendered as row of dots; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

8. single barrier=gate (on road); access=no: rendered as dot only; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

7. barrier=fence (across full width of road); access=no: rendered on both sides of the road, but not across the road itself; vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

8. barrier=gate in barrier=fence in middle of roadway; access=no on both; gate didn't render, fence still only visible on both sides of the road, but not across the road itself;  vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

9. barrier=ditch (across full width of road); access=no; didn't render; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access

10. Least favourable option by far :-( 
Split the road & cut a small (~5m) section out; shows as two road endings actually touching; vehicles are blocked in OSRM, but GraphHopper still allows bike, foot & vehicle access

Increase gap to ~20m; gap shown in road; doesn't stop vehicle, bike or foot access in either router, after a small gap did block OSRM?

Increase road gap to ~50m by cutting it at corner of Honeyeater Drive, so whole section of road has disappeared; everything is stopped from going that way, including foot & bike, even though there's a marked footpath along the side of the road?

Unless I've been doing something wrong with the way I've been placing the various blocks, this has got me totally confused?

Why do we have the various blocking options if they don't actually stop you driving through them?

Both routers show foot traffic walking along the length of the road, not the adjacent footpath - why?

Anybody have any ideas, or should it all be working OK, & it's just a peculiarity of OSRM / GraphHopper that's been throwing me out?

Looking forward to any insights! :-)

Thanks

Graeme



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Re: Road blocks?

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 10:17, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Graphhhopper does not update the database instantaneously. 

 On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 10:24, Anton Klim <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yep, looks like it might be a router data issue rather than a router issue. 
Maybe try OsmAnd Live if you have an android device, or find an alternative osm router that updates faster

OK thanks - seeing that OSRM seemingly works straight away, I thought they may both have? 

Regardless of any blocks, it still doesn't alter the rather strange directions they show for the route though? 

We'll see if anybody else has any thoughts :-)

Thanks

Graeme



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