Road name abbreviation exception?

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Road name abbreviation exception?

Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc)

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the use of “Saint vs St” (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?


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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

cleary
In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney suburb Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official names.

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that "St" can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".




On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the use of “Saint vs St” (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Philip Mallis
It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another example where that is used instead of 'Saint'.

Sent from my iPhone

On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary <[hidden email]> wrote:

In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney suburb Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official names.

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that "St" can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".




On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the use of “Saint vs St” (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Nemanja Bračko
​​
Hi!
The easiest way is to add alt_name with abbreviation. Also if community agrees, it is possible to put abbreviation in the name tag (because of rendering name on the map), but use "Saint" as alt_name.

Best Regrads,
Nemanja

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 5:18 AM Philip Mallis <[hidden email]> wrote:
It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another example where that is used instead of 'Saint'.

Sent from my iPhone

On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary <[hidden email]> wrote:

In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney suburb Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official names.

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that "St" can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".




On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the use of “Saint vs St” (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Michael-7

The usage of Saint “Name” is wrong in the English language and should not be used.

 

The only time you use that notation is when you write about the person specifically.

 

Also in French Saint “Name” is acceptable just to be confusing, but this about Australian names and they should all be English (Unlike Canada)

 

What we might have to consider is that in indexing you use Saint not St, do we need to have it explicitly in the tagging (ie alt_name) or is this the responsibility of the renderer to work out?

 

Michael

 

 

From: Nemanja Bračko <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2018 5:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

 

​​

Hi!
The easiest way is to add alt_name with abbreviation. Also if community agrees, it is possible to put abbreviation in the name tag (because of rendering name on the map), but use "Saint" as alt_name.

 

Best Regrads,

Nemanja

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 5:18 AM Philip Mallis <[hidden email]> wrote:

It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another example where that is used instead of 'Saint'.

Sent from my iPhone


On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary <[hidden email]> wrote:

In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney suburb Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official names.

 

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that "St" can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the use of “Saint vs St” (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Warin
Many church names in Australia have names containing 'Saint' followed by a persons name these are are commonly abbreviated 'St'.
I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English language. 
I don't think the alt_name should carry the abbreviation, nor an expanded version. 
For St Leonards .. there are two Saint Leonards 
Saint Leonard of Port Maurice 1676-1751
Saint Leonard of Noblac -559
Saint Peter is well known ... well one of them at least. :) 
---------------- Following a UK example? 
Having a bet both ways ? In the UK a search on St Leonard lead me to 

Node: Drayton Saint Leonard (21268304) - Saint - centre of the place.
Relation: Drayton St. Leonard (1864544)- St. - parish boundary.

Yes these are both the same area. 
So .. for the suburbs/towns/villages at least it can be done both ways .. without using alt_name.  

On 29/06/18 17:31, Michael wrote:

The usage of Saint “Name” is wrong in the English language and should not be used.

 

The only time you use that notation is when you write about the person specifically.

 

Also in French Saint “Name” is acceptable just to be confusing, but this about Australian names and they should all be English (Unlike Canada)

 

What we might have to consider is that in indexing you use Saint not St, do we need to have it explicitly in the tagging (ie alt_name) or is this the responsibility of the renderer to work out?

 

Michael

 

 

From: Nemanja Bračko [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2018 5:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

 

​​

Hi!
The easiest way is to add alt_name with abbreviation. Also if community agrees, it is possible to put abbreviation in the name tag (because of rendering name on the map), but use "Saint" as alt_name.

 

Best Regrads,

Nemanja

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 5:18 AM Philip Mallis <[hidden email]> wrote:

It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another example where that is used instead of 'Saint'.

Sent from my iPhone


On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary <[hidden email]> wrote:

In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney suburb Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official names.

 

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that "St" can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the use of “Saint vs St” (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Warin
Further thought;
I'm certain the Federal Governments 'Style Manual for authors, editors and printers.' would have something to say on it. 
It looks like I can borrow it from a local library. 

ISBN 0701636483 (pkb), 0701636475 
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/13429246?q=Style+manual&c=book

On 29/06/18 18:03, Warin wrote:
  
    
  
  
    
      
Many church names in Australia have names containing 'Saint' followed by a persons name these are are commonly abbreviated 'St'.
      
I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English language. 
      
I don't think the alt_name should carry the abbreviation, nor an expanded version. 
      
For St Leonards .. there are two Saint Leonards 
      
Saint Leonard of Port Maurice 1676-1751
      
Saint Leonard of Noblac -559
      
Saint Peter is well known ... well one of them at least. :) 
      
---------------- Following a UK example? 
      
Having a bet both ways ? In the UK a search on St Leonard lead me to 

Node: Drayton Saint Leonard (21268304) - Saint - centre of the place.
      
Relation: Drayton St. Leonard (1864544)- St. - parish boundary.

Yes these are both the same area. 
      
So .. for the suburbs/towns/villages at least it can be done both ways .. without using alt_name.  
      


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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Michael-7
In reply to this post by Warin

From “The Cambridge Guide to Australian English Usage”

 

Page 713-714 https://books.google.com.au/books?id=FKpcDwAAQBAJ

 

Saint or St The conventions for writing saints' names depend on the context:

whether it's a reference to the saint himself or herself, or to an institution or place

named after them.

  The names of saints are only prefaced by Saint in books which describe their

life and works. Incidental references to them in history books and encyclopedias

are usually abbreviated to St. In the indexes to religious books, saints' names are entered

alphabetically according to their given names, with Saint following:

  Thomas Aquinas, Saint

In other references St is used, Churches are identified this way: St Mary's Cathedral,

St John's Church, as are other associated institutions: Brotherhood of St Laurence, St

Vincent de Paul. Purely secular institutions such as the St George Building Society

and the St Kilda Football Club naturally use the abbreviation.

 

It goes on but I can’t copy-paste from there so I had to type that, feel free to read it at your leisure.

 

Michael

 

 

From: Warin <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2018 6:04 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

 

Many church names in Australia have names containing 'Saint' followed by a persons name these are are commonly abbreviated 'St'.
I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English language. 
 
I don't think the alt_name should carry the abbreviation, nor an expanded version. 
 
For St Leonards .. there are two Saint Leonards 
Saint Leonard of Port Maurice 1676-1751
Saint Leonard of Noblac -559
 
Saint Peter is well known ... well one of them at least. :) 
 
---------------- Following a UK example? 
Having a bet both ways ? In the UK a search on St Leonard lead me to 
 
Node: Drayton Saint Leonard (21268304) - Saint - centre of the place.
Relation: Drayton St. Leonard (1864544)- St. - parish boundary.
 
Yes these are both the same area. 
 
So .. for the suburbs/towns/villages at least it can be done both ways .. without using alt_name.  


On 29/06/18 17:31, Michael wrote:

The usage of Saint “Name” is wrong in the English language and should not be used.

 

The only time you use that notation is when you write about the person specifically.

 

Also in French Saint “Name” is acceptable just to be confusing, but this about Australian names and they should all be English (Unlike Canada)

 

What we might have to consider is that in indexing you use Saint not St, do we need to have it explicitly in the tagging (ie alt_name) or is this the responsibility of the renderer to work out?

 

Michael

 

 

From: Nemanja Bračko [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2018 5:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

 

​​

Hi!
The easiest way is to add alt_name with abbreviation. Also if community agrees, it is possible to put abbreviation in the name tag (because of rendering name on the map), but use "Saint" as alt_name.

 

Best Regrads,

Nemanja

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 5:18 AM Philip Mallis <[hidden email]> wrote:

It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another example where that is used instead of 'Saint'.

Sent from my iPhone


On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary <[hidden email]> wrote:

In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney suburb Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official names.

 

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that "St" can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the use of “Saint vs St” (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Warin
Warin wrote:
> I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English
> language.

It is expressly _incorrect_ in British English and if this were a UK
discussion you would be asked to put them back to St. I can't speak for
Australian English but it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same.

https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/19609/saint-or-st-is-there-an-official-osm-policy

Richard



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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Warin
On 29/06/18 21:08, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> Warin wrote:
>> I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English
>> language.
> It is expressly _incorrect_ in British English and if this were a UK
> discussion you would be asked to put them back to St. I can't speak for
> Australian English but it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same.
>
> https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/19609/saint-or-st-is-there-an-official-osm-policy
>
> Richard
>
Humm I'll wait until I get my hands on the OZie Govts 'Style Guide'..

However .. The UK does not look like a good guide as to what to do?

Saint Paul's Cathedral way 369161987 ...

has the name 'Saint Paul's Cathedral' (and has that name for over 2 years) .. surrounding features are named 'St Paul's" and others named 'Saint Paul's' .. rather inconsistent!

Are the signs there that inconsistent too?

--------------------
There is also a suggestion to use short_name for the St abbreviation.
But I'll wait till I get the guide .. end of next week?


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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Adrian Hobbs
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Maybe I am missing something here, but to my mind road and place naming
is pretty clear cut. See:-

"Guidelines for the determination of place names" a fact sheet by the
Geographic Names Board of NSW
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/58843/Guidelines_determination_placenames_2017.pdf

and

"6.7 Principles of Road naming" page 97 of the NSW Addressing User Manual
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/199411/2018_NSW_Addressing_User_Manual.pdf

Although these relate to NSW, I imagine there are similar arrangements
in all states and territories.

If OSM uses anything different it will only cause difficulties. I guess
that, as with all standards, there will be exceptions.
But OSM should then go with whatever the legal name is.

Cheers
Adrian Hobbs

tel: 0427 310 938
email: [hidden email]

====================================

On 29/06/2018 9:08 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> Warin wrote:
>> I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English
>> language.
> It is expressly _incorrect_ in British English and if this were a UK
> discussion you would be asked to put them back to St. I can't speak for
> Australian English but it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same.
>
> https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/19609/saint-or-st-is-there-an-official-osm-policy
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Australia-f5416966.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au


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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Andrew Harvey-3
For places like `St Peters` and `St Leonards` the `St` abbreviation has become widely accepted by the community to the point that it's almost no longer an abbreviation. So I'd say it should be `St Peters` and not use `Saint Peters` even as an alt_name.


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Re: Road name abbreviation exception?

Warin
Final got the federal govt "Style Manual" and looked through it.
The only bit on St and Saint is that they should be treated the same in
an index .. the St should be expanded for the listing order but printed
as St.

There are a number of places where examples are given for some other
things that include things like "St Mary".

So I would take it that the federal govt "Style Manual" would accept the
use of St rather than have it expanded in all situations, but they don't
state it explicitly.
They do comment that the telephone book can be used as an example of
correct addressing...
This comes from the sixth edition 2002.

So .. looks like St unexpanded is officially accepted.

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