Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

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Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

pangose
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem.
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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

SimonPoole

The "names" in wikidata are mostly the names of WP pages for the object in question and have little to do with actually existing names (as per the OSM definition) of places.

It would be a massive drop in quality if we would do the proposed switch.

Simon

Am 09.08.2020 um 10:25 schrieb pangoSE:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem.
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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by pangose
Aug 9, 2020, 10:25 by [hidden email]:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
Absolutely no.

tagging name tag is a fundamental  part of OSM tag,
offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not happen

https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655 contains several misleading, wrong, mistaken
and problematic claims, statements and implications but I have no time to process in detail
as the entire idea is fundamentally bad, mistaken, problematic, broken, not workable,
not acceptable, not going to happen and wrong.

Some samples:

"there is no such thing as an international name. Names are part of a
language whih is part of a culture. They are not GIS objects and the
osm datamodel does not handle this complexity well at all."

Are you aware that we have other tags beyond name tag?

loc_name, name:pl and many others?

"No more name vandalism in osm. We export the name handling to
wikidata which has a much better system for handling vandalism."

Because vandalism in third-party service is superior?
Are you seriously claiming that Wikidata has less trouble with vandalism
and deals with it better?
Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
Untrue, Nominatim is doing it already.
retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
If you think that it is a viable idea then you are mistaken.



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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

pangose
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
This is a valid concern. What I'm suggesting to solve that is to create a new property "OpenStreetMap name" that can hold names in multiple languages and every single one can be independently referenced.

Cheers

Simon Poole <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 10:36:34 CEST)

The "names" in wikidata are mostly the names of WP pages for the object in question and have little to do with actually existing names (as per the OSM definition) of places.

It would be a massive drop in quality if we would do the proposed switch.

Simon

Am 09.08.2020 um 10:25 schrieb pangoSE:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem.
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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Lester Caine
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list
On 09/08/2020 09:42, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

> Aug 9, 2020, 10:25 by [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>:
>
>     I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and
>     updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>
> Absolutely no.
>
> tagging name tag is a fundamental  part of OSM tag,
> offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not happen
>
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655 contains several misleading,
> wrong, mistaken
> and problematic claims, statements and implications but I have no time
> to process in detail
> as the entire idea is fundamentally bad, mistaken, problematic, broken,
> not workable,
> not acceptable, not going to happen and wrong.

Seconded ...
However sensible LINKING to third party services does make sense such as
with geonames which already has services linking back to OSM ...
geonames is a useful source of local time data for example.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk

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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list
Aug 9, 2020, 11:09 by [hidden email]:
>"there is no such thing as an international name. Names are part of a
>language whih is part of a culture. They are not GIS objects and the
>osm datamodel does not handle this complexity well at all."

>Are you aware that we have other tags beyond name tag?

Yes
Then what kind of complexity is not handled by OSM?
>loc_name, name:pl and many others?
That is not handled by already existing tags?
If there is some actual problem then it should be solved.

>"No more name vandalism in osm. We export the name handling to
>wikidata which has a much better system for handling vandalism."

>Because vandalism in third-party service is superior?
>Are you seriously claiming that Wikidata has less trouble with
>vandalism
>and deals with it better?

Yes. The new york defacement could most probably have been avoided wih this approach.
How it would be avoided?
How pulling data from Wikidata would change anything in such case?

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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

James-2
In reply to this post by pangose
is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem._______________________________________________
talk mailing list
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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

General Discussion mailing list
or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?

Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by [hidden email]:
is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem._______________________________________________
talk mailing list


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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

pangose
In reply to this post by James-2
Also a valid concern worth pondering. I guess having a local snapshot of wikidata on an osm controlled server should fix that.

Wikibase is free software so we can set up our own in the very unlikely case that no-one else does it.

Note that both Facebook, Microsoft and Google are dependent on wikidata now so it is very unlikely that it will cease to exist for the near future.

If it ever becomes unstable someone is going to fork it rather quickly I think.


James <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 11:45:02 CEST)
is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem._______________________________________________
talk mailing list
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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

pangose
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list
These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.

In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that have names currently.

In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q for our unique ids.

Cheers

Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?

Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by [hidden email]:
is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem._______________________________________________
talk mailing list


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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

sabas88
More than deprecating name=* to replace with Wikidata, it would be needed deprecating it in favour of name:<Lang>=* and leaving to the client the decision of what language to render.
It would partially solve the multilanguage issue...

Stefano

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020, 13:11 pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.

In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that have names currently.

In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q for our unique ids.

Cheers

Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?

Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by [hidden email]:
is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem._______________________________________________
talk mailing list

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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

mmd
In reply to this post by pangose
On 2020-08-09 13:05, pangoSE wrote:
> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own
> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

Our own Wiki.openstreetmap.org already has a wikibase installed. You're
not proposing to install another one?


> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than
> Q for our unique ids.
>

IIRC, Yuri already tried that when implementing Wikibase on our own
wiki, and it turned out to be massively complicated, not to say not
feasible at all. Didn't you follow that discussion back then?

--





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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Alan Mackie
In reply to this post by pangose
This seems like a bad idea.

Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a specific wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious when it comes to trademarks.

We also should not be doing bulk name changes until we have verified that the signage on the individual locations has actually changed. Depending on the brand these could take years to ripple through to the individual stores, and particularly 'historic' stores may retain old branding as part of a conscious effort not to irk locals. Branding changes in the Wikidata would likely be over-applied.

Abandoning the name tags for chains would essentially be carte-blanche permission for automated edits. As it stands now, a disagreement between OSM name and Wikidata name may be a useful indicator that resurvey is needed. If we abandon name tags we open the door to the introduction of dodgy data that isn't caught by any of our QA tools because it doesn't even have a changeset.

If "duplication"  is really an issue, I would prefer to remove all Wikidata tags than to depreciate names where they exist. Forcing contributors to check an independant database before uploading survey results seems like a lot of extra effort for a volunteer driven project.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 12:11, pangoSE <[hidden email]> wrote:
These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.

It would also be a new and currently unnecessary drain on OSMF's resources.

In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that have names currently.

In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q for our unique ids.

Cheers

Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?

Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by [hidden email]:
is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
These seems like large burdens to dump on open source developers. 
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
I'm not sure if I have a Wikidata account so this is a non-issue for me. 

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem._______________________________________________
talk mailing list

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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

James-2
Not to mention the additional overhead of conflating two databases to get something essential like a name

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 7:57 a.m. Alan Mackie, <[hidden email]> wrote:
This seems like a bad idea.

Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a specific wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious when it comes to trademarks.

We also should not be doing bulk name changes until we have verified that the signage on the individual locations has actually changed. Depending on the brand these could take years to ripple through to the individual stores, and particularly 'historic' stores may retain old branding as part of a conscious effort not to irk locals. Branding changes in the Wikidata would likely be over-applied.

Abandoning the name tags for chains would essentially be carte-blanche permission for automated edits. As it stands now, a disagreement between OSM name and Wikidata name may be a useful indicator that resurvey is needed. If we abandon name tags we open the door to the introduction of dodgy data that isn't caught by any of our QA tools because it doesn't even have a changeset.

If "duplication"  is really an issue, I would prefer to remove all Wikidata tags than to depreciate names where they exist. Forcing contributors to check an independant database before uploading survey results seems like a lot of extra effort for a volunteer driven project.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 12:11, pangoSE <[hidden email]> wrote:
These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.

It would also be a new and currently unnecessary drain on OSMF's resources.

In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that have names currently.

In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q for our unique ids.

Cheers

Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?

Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by [hidden email]:
is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
These seems like large burdens to dump on open source developers. 
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
I'm not sure if I have a Wikidata account so this is a non-issue for me. 

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Jeremy Harris
In reply to this post by pangose
On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote:
> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

> Substantial changes will have to be made:
> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.

How would that work for an offline renderer?
Not everyone has, or wants to have, their phone connected 24/7.
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Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance (Was: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM)

pangose
In reply to this post by pangose
Hi

The discussion below spawned the following idea of migrating the whole tags system instead.

Remember we OSM contributors are in the "business" of generating high quality geo- AND metadata with references ideally for every single change or statement and ideally linked to other data sources about the physical world.

The geodata handling in OSM is IMO superb.

Unfortunately the metadata is handled less nice because they are not linked data with a unique id and not individually referencable.

I really dislike the current osm tags system. Its IMO not the best way anno 2020 to handle metadata and should be fixed as soon as possible.
I therefore suggest we create a wikibase instance called OSMData and migrate all our tags into that system.

Of course this is also a big change which has to be considered carefully.

I believe linked data is the only sane way to go forward when it comes to metadata.

What I'm suggesting here is to migrate from our own special purpose legacy tags system very specific to osm to a more standardized linked data storage model based on unique identifiers instead.

This would make it much easier for others to handle our non-geographic data and to create validations on the languages used, tag combination used, etc. It could simply link to wikidata when needed e.g. for labels of countries, cities, etc.

We would also in get unique ids for all osm objects, which is very very nice.

The js interface of wikibase is unfortunately quite horrible IMO, but I believe our editors can easily be adapted to update osmdata in the wikibase via the REST API so that most mappers won't have to visit the wikibase UI at all.

I also suggest that we carefully consider what license we want for this metadata. I personally suggest CC0.
All the geographic data in OSM remains the current license.

This protects all the hard labor of gathering and verifying coordinates and makes it easier to share metadata and for data consumers to integrate osmdata and wikidata (except the coordinates).

I have not thought a lot about the implications for this license change for the metadata but it really makes no sense to restrict public metadata in general IMO. It would help wikidata and the open data movement a lot as you would be able to e.g. crosscheck the names of all hospitals in Kenya and add missing names in either project without worrying about license restrictions. Or list missing hospitals in either project that appears in the other. Or list differing names/labels and compare the references, etc.

None of the above examples are easy to do today as the author of the brilliant https://github.com/EdwardBetts/osm-wikidata/ can surely testify to. In a SPARQL linked data world these would be rather simple queries crafted in a few minutes by an experienced SPARQL query editor which we already have in our community.

Cheers
pangoSE
PS: The past introduction of wikibase as an addon to osmwiki is unfortunate because it does not seem to have resulted in many benefits and have maybe given some osm contributers a negative image of linked data. Its really very different from what I propose here.

pangoSE <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:05:54 CEST)
These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.

In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that have names currently.

In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q for our unique ids.

Cheers

Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?

Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by [hidden email]:
is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem._______________________________________________
talk mailing list


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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

James-2
In reply to this post by Jeremy Harris
and if the solution is to download the data then download wikidata, it's even more clunky than the name tag itself

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:29 a.m. Jeremy Harris, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote:
> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

> Substantial changes will have to be made:
> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.

How would that work for an offline renderer?
Not everyone has, or wants to have, their phone connected 24/7.
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Cheers,
  Jeremy

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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

pangose
In reply to this post by mmd
Hi

mmd <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:47:43 CEST)
>On 2020-08-09 13:05, pangoSE wrote:
>> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
>> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our
>own
>> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/
>
>Our own Wiki.openstreetmap.org already has a wikibase installed. You're
>not proposing to install another one?

Yes I am.

>
>
>> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix
>than
>> Q for our unique ids.
>>
>
>IIRC, Yuri already tried that when implementing Wikibase on our own
>wiki, and it turned out to be massively complicated, not to say not
>feasible at all. Didn't you follow that discussion back then?

I was not aware. Link?
Its not a dealbreaker for me but it would be nice to avoid confusion for non SPARQL aware users.

Cheers

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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

mmd
On 2020-08-09 14:33, pangoSE wrote:


>> IIRC, Yuri already tried that when implementing Wikibase on our own
>> wiki, and it turned out to be massively complicated, not to say not
>> feasible at all. Didn't you follow that discussion back then?
>
> I was not aware. Link?
> Its not a dealbreaker for me but it would be nice to avoid confusion for non SPARQL aware users.
>

Here we go: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T202676


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Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

pangose
In reply to this post by James-2

I disagree. With (permanent) unique ids is trivial and the overhead is IMO neglible.

Its not rocket science to query an API endpoint from any programming language. All our data consumers are already doing this.

I made a simple map in a few hours that query both overpass and wikidata based on the osmid to find links to images of shelters. See https://github.com/pangoSE/sheltermap

James <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:59:40 CEST)
Not to mention the additional overhead of conflating two databases to get something essential like a name

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 7:57 a.m. Alan Mackie, <[hidden email]> wrote:
This seems like a bad idea.

Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a specific wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious when it comes to trademarks.

We also should not be doing bulk name changes until we have verified that the signage on the individual locations has actually changed. Depending on the brand these could take years to ripple through to the individual stores, and particularly 'historic' stores may retain old branding as part of a conscious effort not to irk locals. Branding changes in the Wikidata would likely be over-applied.

Abandoning the name tags for chains would essentially be carte-blanche permission for automated edits. As it stands now, a disagreement between OSM name and Wikidata name may be a useful indicator that resurvey is needed. If we abandon name tags we open the door to the introduction of dodgy data that isn't caught by any of our QA tools because it doesn't even have a changeset.

If "duplication"  is really an issue, I would prefer to remove all Wikidata tags than to depreciate names where they exist. Forcing contributors to check an independant database before uploading survey results seems like a lot of extra effort for a volunteer driven project.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 12:11, pangoSE <[hidden email]> wrote:
These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.

It would also be a new and currently unnecessary drain on OSMF's resources.

In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that have names currently.

In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q for our unique ids.

Cheers

Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?

Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by [hidden email]:
is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <[hidden email]> wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any object.
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
These seems like large burdens to dump on open source developers. 
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
I'm not sure if I have a Wikidata account so this is a non-issue for me. 

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the wider ecosystem._______________________________________________
talk mailing list

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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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