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Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Warin
Hi,


I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.

At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they
are not camp sites.

At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I am
a tent user).

If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they
should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.


There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area


I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas'
now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.


Thoughts?


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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Ben Kelley-4
That sounds sensible.

In general I don't think a rest area should be tagged as a camp site.


  - Ben Kelley.


On 19/04/2017 08:54, Warin wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.
>
> At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they
> are not camp sites.
>
> At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I
> am a tent user).
>
> If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they
> should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.
>
>
> There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area
>
>
> I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas'
> now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.
>
>
> Thoughts?


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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Mark Pulley-2
In reply to this post by Warin
I've changed a few of these 'camp sites' to 'rest areas' when I've  
come across them. Many of them were added prior to the existence of  
the rest area tag. I've got no issues with these being re-tagged.

Quoting Warin <[hidden email]>:
> I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas'
> now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.

Mark P.



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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

David Bannon-2
In reply to this post by Warin
Warin, I am not sure I agree.

There are a number of what are officially Rest Areas that are set up,
used and officially blessed as camp sites. Now the term "Camp Site"
might mean different things to different people. To people with a
caravan or motor home, and there are a lot of them, a camp site is
somewhere to camp with their caravan or motor home.

I'm sorry (for you) that so many of them are not suitable for a tent but
the truth is there is a big demand from caravan (camper, motor home etc)
users and an inability to distinguish between sites that make good camp
sites and ones that don't would be a problem.

IMHO, we are talking about "camp sites" as somewhere you camp, if it is
unsuitable for a tent in your opinion, then a tag saying just that may
be appropriate. Importantly, you would be allowed erect a tent, even if
you would be uncomfortable doing so.

Worth noting that the division between a tent and a caravan is possibly
vague, while the majority of campers on the road (excluding xmas and
easter time) are in recognizably caravans, there are various "campers"
that involve canvas, some where that canvas hits the ground, at what
point does that become a tent ?

David


On 19/04/17 08:54, Warin wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.
>
> At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they
> are not camp sites.
>
> At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I
> am a tent user).
>
> If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they
> should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.
>
>
> There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area
>
>
> I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas'
> now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au


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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Warin
On 19-Apr-17 11:10 AM, David Bannon wrote:
Warin, I am not sure I agree.

There are a number of what are officially Rest Areas that are set up, used and officially blessed as camp sites. Now the term "Camp Site" might mean different things to different people. To people with a caravan or motor home, and there are a lot of them, a camp site is somewhere to camp with their caravan or motor home.

These should be tagged as both a rest area and a 'caravan site'.
I have used 'rest areas' for camping .. even where I was not certain of the official over night use, when the need arises.
Usually I try to pick my overnight spots .. sometimes things change and I have to take what I can get.


I'm sorry (for you) that so many of them are not suitable for a tent but the truth is there is a big demand from caravan (camper, motor home etc) users and an inability to distinguish between sites that make good camp sites and ones that don't would be a problem.

Err OSM does distinguish between camp/tent site and caravan site .. even the usually render has different symbols for them.
tourism=camp_site
tourism= caravan_site

Most if not all Australian sites cater for both.  Free sites may only cater for one type though.
Where a site is unsuitable for tents .. then it should clearly be tagged as a caravan site. And vice versa.


IMHO, we are talking about "camp sites" as somewhere you camp, if it is unsuitable for a tent in your opinion, then a tag saying just that may be appropriate. Importantly, you would be allowed erect a tent, even if you would be uncomfortable doing so.

Some 'rest areas' do not officially allow over night stays. Some have no area suitable for driving in tent pegs.


Worth noting that the division between a tent and a caravan is possibly vague, while the majority of campers on the road (excluding xmas and easter time) are in recognizably caravans, there are various "campers" that involve canvas, some where that canvas hits the ground, at what point does that become a tent ?

Caravans like a 'hard standing'.
Tent people like soft ground .. easier to drive in tent pegs as well as a softer surface.
An area that gets used by caravans gets the soil compressed to such a degree that it becomes very difficult to drive in tent pegs .. sometimes I feel I should be carrying a drill to make a hole first. :)

I have re-tagged this one ..
Node: Sutton Park Rest Area (1811197082)
as there should be no overnight here ...
https://www.caravancaravan.com.au/entity/sutton-park-rest-area/nsw

It does look suitable for both tents and caravans. But officially no. See how that goes?

I do think these things probably predate the rest area tagging and probably the caravan tagging too.
Changing them to rest area tagging is, I think, more appropriate as that is what they are officially.
Some have water, toilets .. those can be additional tags as can the caravan/camping information.



On 19/04/17 08:54, Warin wrote:
Hi,


I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.

At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they are not camp sites.

At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I am a tent user).

If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.


There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area


I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas' now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.


Thoughts?


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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Hi

In Qld at least, overnight camping is not permitted in a lot of rest areas as they are intended for heavy vehicles, & where private vehicles are allowed to stop overnight, the maximum stay is 20 hours, so there's no one size fit's all answer.

They do provide details of where all the rest areas are & what is allowed, along with maps: https://publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/guide-to-queensland-roads

We may even be able to use them under CC-BY-3.0 AU? https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/au/

Thanks

Graeme


On 19 April 2017 at 11:57, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 19-Apr-17 11:10 AM, David Bannon wrote:
Warin, I am not sure I agree.

There are a number of what are officially Rest Areas that are set up, used and officially blessed as camp sites. Now the term "Camp Site" might mean different things to different people. To people with a caravan or motor home, and there are a lot of them, a camp site is somewhere to camp with their caravan or motor home.

These should be tagged as both a rest area and a 'caravan site'.
I have used 'rest areas' for camping .. even where I was not certain of the official over night use, when the need arises.
Usually I try to pick my overnight spots .. sometimes things change and I have to take what I can get.


I'm sorry (for you) that so many of them are not suitable for a tent but the truth is there is a big demand from caravan (camper, motor home etc) users and an inability to distinguish between sites that make good camp sites and ones that don't would be a problem.

Err OSM does distinguish between camp/tent site and caravan site .. even the usually render has different symbols for them.
tourism=camp_site
tourism= caravan_site

Most if not all Australian sites cater for both.  Free sites may only cater for one type though.
Where a site is unsuitable for tents .. then it should clearly be tagged as a caravan site. And vice versa.


IMHO, we are talking about "camp sites" as somewhere you camp, if it is unsuitable for a tent in your opinion, then a tag saying just that may be appropriate. Importantly, you would be allowed erect a tent, even if you would be uncomfortable doing so.

Some 'rest areas' do not officially allow over night stays. Some have no area suitable for driving in tent pegs.


Worth noting that the division between a tent and a caravan is possibly vague, while the majority of campers on the road (excluding xmas and easter time) are in recognizably caravans, there are various "campers" that involve canvas, some where that canvas hits the ground, at what point does that become a tent ?

Caravans like a 'hard standing'.
Tent people like soft ground .. easier to drive in tent pegs as well as a softer surface.
An area that gets used by caravans gets the soil compressed to such a degree that it becomes very difficult to drive in tent pegs .. sometimes I feel I should be carrying a drill to make a hole first. :)

I have re-tagged this one ..
Node: Sutton Park Rest Area (1811197082)
as there should be no overnight here ...
https://www.caravancaravan.com.au/entity/sutton-park-rest-area/nsw

It does look suitable for both tents and caravans. But officially no. See how that goes?

I do think these things probably predate the rest area tagging and probably the caravan tagging too.
Changing them to rest area tagging is, I think, more appropriate as that is what they are officially.
Some have water, toilets .. those can be additional tags as can the caravan/camping information.



On 19/04/17 08:54, Warin wrote:
Hi,


I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.

At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they are not camp sites.

At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I am a tent user).

If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.


There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area


I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas' now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.


Thoughts?


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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Graeme Fitzpatrick
& again...


Thanks

Graeme


On 19 April 2017 at 13:19, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

In Qld at least, overnight camping is not permitted in a lot of rest areas as they are intended for heavy vehicles, & where private vehicles are allowed to stop overnight, the maximum stay is 20 hours, so there's no one size fit's all answer.

They do provide details of where all the rest areas are & what is allowed, along with maps: https://publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/guide-to-queensland-roads

We may even be able to use them under CC-BY-3.0 AU? https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/au/

Thanks

Graeme


On 19 April 2017 at 11:57, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 19-Apr-17 11:10 AM, David Bannon wrote:
Warin, I am not sure I agree.

There are a number of what are officially Rest Areas that are set up, used and officially blessed as camp sites. Now the term "Camp Site" might mean different things to different people. To people with a caravan or motor home, and there are a lot of them, a camp site is somewhere to camp with their caravan or motor home.

These should be tagged as both a rest area and a 'caravan site'.
I have used 'rest areas' for camping .. even where I was not certain of the official over night use, when the need arises.
Usually I try to pick my overnight spots .. sometimes things change and I have to take what I can get.


I'm sorry (for you) that so many of them are not suitable for a tent but the truth is there is a big demand from caravan (camper, motor home etc) users and an inability to distinguish between sites that make good camp sites and ones that don't would be a problem.

Err OSM does distinguish between camp/tent site and caravan site .. even the usually render has different symbols for them.
tourism=camp_site
tourism= caravan_site

Most if not all Australian sites cater for both.  Free sites may only cater for one type though.
Where a site is unsuitable for tents .. then it should clearly be tagged as a caravan site. And vice versa.


IMHO, we are talking about "camp sites" as somewhere you camp, if it is unsuitable for a tent in your opinion, then a tag saying just that may be appropriate. Importantly, you would be allowed erect a tent, even if you would be uncomfortable doing so.

Some 'rest areas' do not officially allow over night stays. Some have no area suitable for driving in tent pegs.


Worth noting that the division between a tent and a caravan is possibly vague, while the majority of campers on the road (excluding xmas and easter time) are in recognizably caravans, there are various "campers" that involve canvas, some where that canvas hits the ground, at what point does that become a tent ?

Caravans like a 'hard standing'.
Tent people like soft ground .. easier to drive in tent pegs as well as a softer surface.
An area that gets used by caravans gets the soil compressed to such a degree that it becomes very difficult to drive in tent pegs .. sometimes I feel I should be carrying a drill to make a hole first. :)

I have re-tagged this one ..
Node: Sutton Park Rest Area (1811197082)
as there should be no overnight here ...
https://www.caravancaravan.com.au/entity/sutton-park-rest-area/nsw

It does look suitable for both tents and caravans. But officially no. See how that goes?

I do think these things probably predate the rest area tagging and probably the caravan tagging too.
Changing them to rest area tagging is, I think, more appropriate as that is what they are officially.
Some have water, toilets .. those can be additional tags as can the caravan/camping information.



On 19/04/17 08:54, Warin wrote:
Hi,


I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.

At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they are not camp sites.

At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I am a tent user).

If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.


There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area


I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas' now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.


Thoughts?


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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Nick Hocking
In reply to this post by Warin
I think that if they are signed on the highway as "Rest Area" then OSM should do the same.

Camping or caravan or HV (etc.) tags could be added as appropriate.

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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Mark Pulley-2
Quoting Nick Hocking <[hidden email]>:

tents=yes/no amd caravans=yes/no can be used. I can't find any  
specific tags for campervans (taginfo only has 3 instances worldwide  
of campervan/campervans) - presumably caravans=yes/no will cover this.

> I think that if they are signed on the highway as "Rest Area" then OSM
> should do the same.
>
> Camping or caravan or HV (etc.) tags could be added as appropriate.

Mark P.



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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Warin
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
Rest Areas ... a summary so far?

Best tag to use is highway=rest_area as this reflects what they actually are.


'Camping' is limited in most of these due to the hard surfaces, it would be better to use a caravan tag where this is 'on the ground truth'. A tag to use under rest area looks to be caravan=yes. Personally I would be tempted to use a separate node/way with tourism=caravan_site.. following the thinking of one feature one OSM element.

'Camping' or 'Caravanning' appears to be limited to a maximum stay of ~24 hours at least by some (for these areas) http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t60796278/rms-rest-area-clarification/

So this maybe be a usefull tag to include caravan:condition:maxstay=24 (or caravan_site:condition:maxstay=24).

HGV
Where the rest area is intended for hgv use only then using access tags would be best? access=no, hgv=yes looks suitable.

----------------
Rendering. This is poor for 'Rest Areas' (looks to be showing the name only at present) and will be a concern for mappers using the tag. Hopefully renders will catch up?

Numbers. Probably some ~4,000 of these in Australia. Some of these Australian ones are already in OSM, total in OSM world wide is ~10,000. Changing the present rest areas from 'camp_site' to rest area might result in, say, an addition ~2,000 rest areas in OSM? Not a vast number .. but any addition helps let the renders know that these things exist in some quantity.


Regarding the various gov listings of rest areas .. not certain of there legal use for adding data from them to OSM.
Possibly use them for checking OSM data .. where OSM is missing then I'd look for web confirmation and the copyright of that confirmation ... possibly look to imagery for more confirmation.
And possibly survey. However I'm not looking at that at this time.


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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

David Bannon-2
In reply to this post by Warin

Warin, may I please refer you to the first sentence from the tourism=camp_site tag ?

"A  campsite or campground is an area, usually divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or camper vans or caravans."

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site

Similarily, the camp_site=* page says

"In OSM speak, a "camp site" is the larger area that contains one or more "camp pitches". A camp pitch is the area where one caravan, motor home or family tent is setup."

The page goes on to define camp_site=basic as applying to "Roadside stops" as well as other likely places.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:camp_site

In both cases the meaning is clear. The term "camp site" does not in any way imply canvas only. People may camp  there using tents, campers, caravans or motor homes. Removing camp_site tags because the site does not suit one particular style of camping is not appropriate.

Adding tent=no might be the solution you are looking for.

David



On 19/04/17 11:57, Warin wrote:
On 19-Apr-17 11:10 AM, David Bannon wrote:
Warin, I am not sure I agree.

There are a number of what are officially Rest Areas that are set up, used and officially blessed as camp sites. Now the term "Camp Site" might mean different things to different people. To people with a caravan or motor home, and there are a lot of them, a camp site is somewhere to camp with their caravan or motor home.

These should be tagged as both a rest area and a 'caravan site'.
I have used 'rest areas' for camping .. even where I was not certain of the official over night use, when the need arises.
Usually I try to pick my overnight spots .. sometimes things change and I have to take what I can get.


I'm sorry (for you) that so many of them are not suitable for a tent but the truth is there is a big demand from caravan (camper, motor home etc) users and an inability to distinguish between sites that make good camp sites and ones that don't would be a problem.

Err OSM does distinguish between camp/tent site and caravan site .. even the usually render has different symbols for them.
tourism=camp_site
tourism= caravan_site

Most if not all Australian sites cater for both.  Free sites may only cater for one type though.
Where a site is unsuitable for tents .. then it should clearly be tagged as a caravan site. And vice versa.


IMHO, we are talking about "camp sites" as somewhere you camp, if it is unsuitable for a tent in your opinion, then a tag saying just that may be appropriate. Importantly, you would be allowed erect a tent, even if you would be uncomfortable doing so.

Some 'rest areas' do not officially allow over night stays. Some have no area suitable for driving in tent pegs.


Worth noting that the division between a tent and a caravan is possibly vague, while the majority of campers on the road (excluding xmas and easter time) are in recognizably caravans, there are various "campers" that involve canvas, some where that canvas hits the ground, at what point does that become a tent ?

Caravans like a 'hard standing'.
Tent people like soft ground .. easier to drive in tent pegs as well as a softer surface.
An area that gets used by caravans gets the soil compressed to such a degree that it becomes very difficult to drive in tent pegs .. sometimes I feel I should be carrying a drill to make a hole first. :)

I have re-tagged this one ..
Node: Sutton Park Rest Area (1811197082)
as there should be no overnight here ...
https://www.caravancaravan.com.au/entity/sutton-park-rest-area/nsw

It does look suitable for both tents and caravans. But officially no. See how that goes?

I do think these things probably predate the rest area tagging and probably the caravan tagging too.
Changing them to rest area tagging is, I think, more appropriate as that is what they are officially.
Some have water, toilets .. those can be additional tags as can the caravan/camping information.



On 19/04/17 08:54, Warin wrote:
Hi,


I have seen a few roadside 'rest areas' tagged in OSM as camp sites.

At least some of these are not suitable for pitching a tent .. so they are not camp sites.

At best they could be used by a caravan/RV ... but not a tent user (I am a tent user).

If the intention was to indicate there use by caravan/RV then they should be tagged as 'tourism=caravan_site'.


There now exists a tag 'highway=rest_area'. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area


I think the tag 'highway=rest_area' should replace those 'rest areas' now tagged as 'camp sites', this would be closer to the truth.


Thoughts?


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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Warin
On 20-Apr-17 06:07 PM, David Bannon wrote:

Warin, may I please refer you to the first sentence from the tourism=camp_site tag ?

"A  campsite or campground is an area, usually divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or camper vans or caravans."

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site

Similarily, the camp_site=* page says

"In OSM speak, a "camp site" is the larger area that contains one or more "camp pitches". A camp pitch is the area where one caravan, motor home or family tent is setup."

The page goes on to define camp_site=basic as applying to "Roadside stops" as well as other likely places.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:camp_site

In both cases the meaning is clear. The term "camp site" does not in any way imply canvas only. People may camp  there using tents, campers, caravans or motor homes. Removing camp_site tags because the site does not suit one particular style of camping is not appropriate.

Adding tent=no might be the solution you are looking for.

David

Thanks. Sometimes my 'plain English' understanding gets the better of the 'OSM meanings'!

However ...

a) I do think that 'rest areas' should be tagged using the rest area tag. It is what they are officially called, and OSM has a tag for them.
If they were tagged as rest areas I would know what to expect, having camp site symbols on the map for rest areas does not help distinguish them from 'real' camp sites. Nor does it convey their intended purpose.

b) Using the tag 'tourism=camp_site' to me implies that I should be able to set up a tent there. And many of these rest areas are not appropriate for tents. The tent=no tag might get a lot of use from me.

c) If they are appropriate for caravans/camper vans then there is the caravan_site or caravan=yes tag that would better represent the features facility?

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Fixing deletions

forster
Hi
I have been fixing map vandalism in Australia but ran into my skill  
limitations on this one

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ramira2

where a quarry has been deleted.

How do I visualise the map before the deletion so I can assess what  
was deleted?
What is the easiest way to undelete something?

Thanks
Tony



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Re: Fixing deletions

Nevw
Hi
Archivi is a good way to view a changeset

There is a legend at the bottom left to describe the display.

The WhoDidIt page is useful for monitoring changes in your area
<a href="http://simon04.dev.openstreetmap.org/whodidit/?zoom=12&amp;lat=-27.62398&amp;lon=152.63623&amp;layers=BTT&amp;age=1 month" class="">http://simon04.dev.openstreetmap.org/whodidit/?zoom=12&lat=-27.62398&lon=152.63623&layers=BTT&age=1%20month
When you select a square you will see a list of changeset that cover that square
-you can see in Archivy by selecting the [A]
-you can see the changeset details at openstreetmap.org by selecting the changeset number

the JOSM editor is a good way to revert a faulty changeset. 
You need to load the ‘reverter’ plugin to perform a revert

If you don’t want to use the reverter, I guess you could take a screen capture encompassing the deleted area and load that image in Josm and use it to redraw the bits you want to add back into OSM. 
You would need to use the PicLayer plugin to do that

…or remap using Bing

The quarry near Rosewood still appears to be correctly mapped by viewing in Bing so not sure what was altered/added there.

Nev


On 21 Apr 2017, at 10:22 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi
I have been fixing map vandalism in Australia but ran into my skill limitations on this one

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ramira2

where a quarry has been deleted.

How do I visualise the map before the deletion so I can assess what was deleted?
What is the easiest way to undelete something?

Thanks
Tony



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Re: Fixing deletions

forster
thanks Nev

I used the reverter

47973757 reverted

quarry south of Ipswich-Rosewood Rd is now restored and the untagged  
area is deleted

Tony



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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

David Bannon-2
In reply to this post by Warin
On 20/04/17 19:50, Warin wrote:
>
> Thanks. Sometimes my 'plain English' understanding gets the better of
> the 'OSM meanings'!
Hmm, I think people in caravans do think they are camping. If there is a
sign, "no camping" we assume it means no caravans too.

> a) I do think that 'rest areas' should be tagged using the rest area tag.
Honestly, I have never tagged a rest area. I go straight to thinking of
it as a potential camp site, if not, I don't bother. Sorry....
So I just read the rest_area key and I must say, its not really very
useful IMHO. As its a key to highway= it needs to be applied to a way
and not the surrounding area perhaps ?  Generally people don't camp on
the drive through part but off the side. Mind you, have see a few people
who have just stopped, closed the curtains and nod off !
>
> b) Using the tag 'tourism=camp_site' to me implies that I should be
> able to set up a tent there.
Thats because you think "camp" means tent only. We've established that
people camp using all sorts of infrastructure. Even truckies talk about
'camping' at some place or another.

> c) If they are appropriate for caravans/camper vans then there is the
> caravan_site or caravan=yes tag that would better represent the
> features facility?
I don't use tourism=caravan_site because I consider =camp_site more
appropriate there being so many similarities and little point in
distinguishing.  But I do use caravan=yes/no as a key to
tourism=camp_site. In deference to your good self, I might use
tent=yes/no a bit more often now :-)

  I really think the camp_site part needs to be tagged because it allows
a large range of informative tags to be added. Toilets, water, rubbish
disposal, web_site and so on. So, would it work to tag the road part
highway=rest_area and surrounding area tourism=camp_site ? Be OK for big
ones like archers-creek-rest-area but smaller ones ?

I guess my point here is a rest_area is a camp site and visa versa. Some
allow you to camp overnight, some don't. Some might allow it but would
be horrible. Just what information are we trying to impart ?

David



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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Warin
On 21-Apr-17 07:40 PM, David Bannon wrote:
> On 20/04/17 19:50, Warin wrote:
>>
>> Thanks. Sometimes my 'plain English' understanding gets the better of
>> the 'OSM meanings'!
> Hmm, I think people in caravans do think they are camping. If there is
> a sign, "no camping" we assume it means no caravans too.

True.
The 'officials' seam to be thinking that a single over night 'rest' is
fine, but multiple nights = camping and that is not fine.. at least that
is my impression from the grey nomads site.
Anyone trying to turf someone 'resting due to fatigue' - even overnight
- would be on thin ground before a reasonable court as we are advised to
'rest' when tired.

>
>> a) I do think that 'rest areas' should be tagged using the rest area
>> tag.
> Honestly, I have never tagged a rest area. I go straight to thinking
> of it as a potential camp site, if not, I don't bother. Sorry....
> So I just read the rest_area key and I must say, its not really very
> useful IMHO. As its a key to highway= it needs to be applied to a way
> and not the surrounding area perhaps ?  Generally people don't camp on
> the drive through part but off the side. Mind you, have see a few
> people who have just stopped, closed the curtains and nod off !

Arr .. yes well the key has never been 'discussed', just put up by a
mapper. Presently it is shown as applying to nodes and areas, not ways
.. but if you go to the talk page you'll see some comments there
(including mine).
Better include a link for those that want a look
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area

>>
>> b) Using the tag 'tourism=camp_site' to me implies that I should be
>> able to set up a tent there.
> Thats because you think "camp" means tent only. We've established that
> people camp using all sorts of infrastructure. Even truckies talk
> about 'camping' at some place or another.
>
You have made your point there. But I would find it strange to go to a
'camp site' and be unable to pitch a tent because it was unsuitable.
Think you'd find it strange to go to a camp site that did not have space
for a caravan? :)
Quite a few rest areas don't have suitable tent areas. A caravan only
needs a longer parking space.

>> c) If they are appropriate for caravans/camper vans then there is the
>> caravan_site or caravan=yes tag that would better represent the
>> features facility?
> I don't use tourism=caravan_site because I consider =camp_site more
> appropriate there being so many similarities and little point in
> distinguishing.  But I do use caravan=yes/no as a key to
> tourism=camp_site. In deference to your good self, I might use
> tent=yes/no a bit more often now :-)
Thanks ... I have used the caravan bits in areas set aside for them on
occasion.
>
>  I really think the camp_site part needs to be tagged because it
> allows a large range of informative tags to be added. Toilets, water,
> rubbish disposal, web_site and so on. So, would it work to tag the
> road part highway=rest_area and surrounding area tourism=camp_site ?
> Be OK for big ones like archers-creek-rest-area but smaller ones ?
Don't see any reason why these features cannot be added to the rest area
key/value.
>
> I guess my point here is a rest_area is a camp site and visa versa.
> Some allow you to camp overnight, some don't. Some might allow it but
> would be horrible. Just what information are we trying to impart ?

Errr No.

A camp site, to me, means I can stay there for quite some time. They are
usually pleasant places to stay with some comfort.
They are intended for people to;
stay, at least overnight and
relax at.

A rest area will be;
intended for people to relieve their driving fatigue buy taking a short
break,
close to a busy road and
probably have constant visits from people stopping for a rest .. say 15
to 30 minutes for a truck driver under their rules, sometimes longer...
and then they are off again.

They can be pleasant, or very unappealing.. some I have entered only to
leave straight away due to the rubbish left behind by others or the
numerous crowd.

Some have time limits of 20 hours (one state), some have signs 'no
camping' and there looks to be a consensus that a time limit will be
applied to avoid;
the rest area being full of multi-day 'campers' so people wanting a
break will not find it full
the commercial camp grounds being devoid of paying customers who are at
'rest areas'

This apparently lead the RMS NSW to putting up 'no camping' signs at
rest areas along the Pacific Hwy.

I think the difference between the two is relevant ... and usefull.
Much rather get to a proper camp ground than find myself at a rest area.
Even a local sports ground, church yard, cemetery or park can be much
better than a rest area. These areas too have social pressures for 'no
camping'. I would never mark them as camp sites unless that is normal
there.
(If you want to 'see' the varieties of camp sites unofficially used ..
google 'stealth camping'.)
P.S. If you want a quite, peaceful rest area .. try a cemetery.


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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

cleary

I draw a parallel with other amenities. Some cafes are licensed to sell
limited alcohol but that does not make them pubs; and some pubs serve
coffee but that does not make them  cafes.  And both cafes and pubs
often serve food.  While there can be overlap in services provided by
amenities, map users are best served by the use of terms that help them
understand the main purpose of the amenity.

I share the concern about confusing rest areas and camping sites.  To
the average person, "rest areas" are for relatively shorter stays,
perhaps just half an hour or sometimes overnight but not for longer
periods. In contrast "camping sites" can be for just one night but are
more commonly used for longer stays.  

Areas by the side of roads are "rest areas" and are usually signposted
as such.  I think it better that roadside rest areas be labelled as
"rest area" in OSM with additional tags used to add detail about
specific facilities etc available at the rest area.








On Fri, Apr 21, 2017, at 09:50 PM, Warin wrote:

> On 21-Apr-17 07:40 PM, David Bannon wrote:
> > On 20/04/17 19:50, Warin wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks. Sometimes my 'plain English' understanding gets the better of
> >> the 'OSM meanings'!
> > Hmm, I think people in caravans do think they are camping. If there is
> > a sign, "no camping" we assume it means no caravans too.
>
> True.
> The 'officials' seam to be thinking that a single over night 'rest' is
> fine, but multiple nights = camping and that is not fine.. at least that
> is my impression from the grey nomads site.
> Anyone trying to turf someone 'resting due to fatigue' - even overnight
> - would be on thin ground before a reasonable court as we are advised to
> 'rest' when tired.
> >
> >> a) I do think that 'rest areas' should be tagged using the rest area
> >> tag.
> > Honestly, I have never tagged a rest area. I go straight to thinking
> > of it as a potential camp site, if not, I don't bother. Sorry....
> > So I just read the rest_area key and I must say, its not really very
> > useful IMHO. As its a key to highway= it needs to be applied to a way
> > and not the surrounding area perhaps ?  Generally people don't camp on
> > the drive through part but off the side. Mind you, have see a few
> > people who have just stopped, closed the curtains and nod off !
>
> Arr .. yes well the key has never been 'discussed', just put up by a
> mapper. Presently it is shown as applying to nodes and areas, not ways
> .. but if you go to the talk page you'll see some comments there
> (including mine).
> Better include a link for those that want a look
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area
>
> >>
> >> b) Using the tag 'tourism=camp_site' to me implies that I should be
> >> able to set up a tent there.
> > Thats because you think "camp" means tent only. We've established that
> > people camp using all sorts of infrastructure. Even truckies talk
> > about 'camping' at some place or another.
> >
> You have made your point there. But I would find it strange to go to a
> 'camp site' and be unable to pitch a tent because it was unsuitable.
> Think you'd find it strange to go to a camp site that did not have space
> for a caravan? :)
> Quite a few rest areas don't have suitable tent areas. A caravan only
> needs a longer parking space.
>
> >> c) If they are appropriate for caravans/camper vans then there is the
> >> caravan_site or caravan=yes tag that would better represent the
> >> features facility?
> > I don't use tourism=caravan_site because I consider =camp_site more
> > appropriate there being so many similarities and little point in
> > distinguishing.  But I do use caravan=yes/no as a key to
> > tourism=camp_site. In deference to your good self, I might use
> > tent=yes/no a bit more often now :-)
> Thanks ... I have used the caravan bits in areas set aside for them on
> occasion.
> >
> >  I really think the camp_site part needs to be tagged because it
> > allows a large range of informative tags to be added. Toilets, water,
> > rubbish disposal, web_site and so on. So, would it work to tag the
> > road part highway=rest_area and surrounding area tourism=camp_site ?
> > Be OK for big ones like archers-creek-rest-area but smaller ones ?
> Don't see any reason why these features cannot be added to the rest area
> key/value.
> >
> > I guess my point here is a rest_area is a camp site and visa versa.
> > Some allow you to camp overnight, some don't. Some might allow it but
> > would be horrible. Just what information are we trying to impart ?
>
> Errr No.
>
> A camp site, to me, means I can stay there for quite some time. They are
> usually pleasant places to stay with some comfort.
> They are intended for people to;
> stay, at least overnight and
> relax at.
>
> A rest area will be;
> intended for people to relieve their driving fatigue buy taking a short
> break,
> close to a busy road and
> probably have constant visits from people stopping for a rest .. say 15
> to 30 minutes for a truck driver under their rules, sometimes longer...
> and then they are off again.
>
> They can be pleasant, or very unappealing.. some I have entered only to
> leave straight away due to the rubbish left behind by others or the
> numerous crowd.
>
> Some have time limits of 20 hours (one state), some have signs 'no
> camping' and there looks to be a consensus that a time limit will be
> applied to avoid;
> the rest area being full of multi-day 'campers' so people wanting a
> break will not find it full
> the commercial camp grounds being devoid of paying customers who are at
> 'rest areas'
>
> This apparently lead the RMS NSW to putting up 'no camping' signs at
> rest areas along the Pacific Hwy.
>
> I think the difference between the two is relevant ... and usefull.
> Much rather get to a proper camp ground than find myself at a rest area.
> Even a local sports ground, church yard, cemetery or park can be much
> better than a rest area. These areas too have social pressures for 'no
> camping'. I would never mark them as camp sites unless that is normal
> there.
> (If you want to 'see' the varieties of camp sites unofficially used ..
> google 'stealth camping'.)
> P.S. If you want a quite, peaceful rest area .. try a cemetery.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Nicholas G Lawrence
Quoting from the "Guide to Queensland Roads" by Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads.

"Motorist Rest Areas
- Rest areas are there for you to stop and rest, making your trip safer and more enjoyable.
- Rest areas are not long-term camping sites. However motorists are able to take extended rest breaks at some sites.
- Rules on the length of stay at rest areas vary between controlling authorities
- Motorists can stay up to 20 hours, including overnight, at some Transport and Main Roads rest areas shown in blue.
- Caravans and motorhomes are not considered heavy vehicles, and should not stop at heavy vehicle locations.
- Motorists cannot stay overnight at Transport and Main Roads rest areas shown in red."

I should also point out that some rest areas are for Motorists, some for Heavy Vehicles, and some cater for both.

There are also Driver Reviver spots which may also be useful to capture?

Cheers,
Nick Lawrence



-----Original Message-----
From: cleary [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, 22 April 2017 10:28 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites


I draw a parallel with other amenities. Some cafes are licensed to sell limited alcohol but that does not make them pubs; and some pubs serve coffee but that does not make them  cafes.  And both cafes and pubs often serve food.  While there can be overlap in services provided by amenities, map users are best served by the use of terms that help them understand the main purpose of the amenity.

I share the concern about confusing rest areas and camping sites.  To the average person, "rest areas" are for relatively shorter stays, perhaps just half an hour or sometimes overnight but not for longer periods. In contrast "camping sites" can be for just one night but are more commonly used for longer stays.  

Areas by the side of roads are "rest areas" and are usually signposted as such.  I think it better that roadside rest areas be labelled as "rest area" in OSM with additional tags used to add detail about specific facilities etc available at the rest area.








On Fri, Apr 21, 2017, at 09:50 PM, Warin wrote:

> On 21-Apr-17 07:40 PM, David Bannon wrote:
> > On 20/04/17 19:50, Warin wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks. Sometimes my 'plain English' understanding gets the better
> >> of the 'OSM meanings'!
> > Hmm, I think people in caravans do think they are camping. If there
> > is a sign, "no camping" we assume it means no caravans too.
>
> True.
> The 'officials' seam to be thinking that a single over night 'rest' is
> fine, but multiple nights = camping and that is not fine.. at least
> that is my impression from the grey nomads site.
> Anyone trying to turf someone 'resting due to fatigue' - even
> overnight
> - would be on thin ground before a reasonable court as we are advised
> to 'rest' when tired.
> >
> >> a) I do think that 'rest areas' should be tagged using the rest
> >> area tag.
> > Honestly, I have never tagged a rest area. I go straight to thinking
> > of it as a potential camp site, if not, I don't bother. Sorry....
> > So I just read the rest_area key and I must say, its not really very
> > useful IMHO. As its a key to highway= it needs to be applied to a
> > way and not the surrounding area perhaps ?  Generally people don't
> > camp on the drive through part but off the side. Mind you, have see
> > a few people who have just stopped, closed the curtains and nod off !
>
> Arr .. yes well the key has never been 'discussed', just put up by a
> mapper. Presently it is shown as applying to nodes and areas, not ways
> .. but if you go to the talk page you'll see some comments there
> (including mine).
> Better include a link for those that want a look
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area
>
> >>
> >> b) Using the tag 'tourism=camp_site' to me implies that I should be
> >> able to set up a tent there.
> > Thats because you think "camp" means tent only. We've established
> > that people camp using all sorts of infrastructure. Even truckies
> > talk about 'camping' at some place or another.
> >
> You have made your point there. But I would find it strange to go to a
> 'camp site' and be unable to pitch a tent because it was unsuitable.
> Think you'd find it strange to go to a camp site that did not have
> space for a caravan? :) Quite a few rest areas don't have suitable
> tent areas. A caravan only needs a longer parking space.
>
> >> c) If they are appropriate for caravans/camper vans then there is
> >> the caravan_site or caravan=yes tag that would better represent the
> >> features facility?
> > I don't use tourism=caravan_site because I consider =camp_site more
> > appropriate there being so many similarities and little point in
> > distinguishing.  But I do use caravan=yes/no as a key to
> > tourism=camp_site. In deference to your good self, I might use
> > tent=yes/no a bit more often now :-)
> Thanks ... I have used the caravan bits in areas set aside for them on
> occasion.
> >
> >  I really think the camp_site part needs to be tagged because it
> > allows a large range of informative tags to be added. Toilets,
> > water, rubbish disposal, web_site and so on. So, would it work to
> > tag the road part highway=rest_area and surrounding area tourism=camp_site ?
> > Be OK for big ones like archers-creek-rest-area but smaller ones ?
> Don't see any reason why these features cannot be added to the rest
> area key/value.
> >
> > I guess my point here is a rest_area is a camp site and visa versa.
> > Some allow you to camp overnight, some don't. Some might allow it
> > but would be horrible. Just what information are we trying to impart ?
>
> Errr No.
>
> A camp site, to me, means I can stay there for quite some time. They
> are usually pleasant places to stay with some comfort.
> They are intended for people to;
> stay, at least overnight and
> relax at.
>
> A rest area will be;
> intended for people to relieve their driving fatigue buy taking a
> short break, close to a busy road and probably have constant visits
> from people stopping for a rest .. say 15 to 30 minutes for a truck
> driver under their rules, sometimes longer...
> and then they are off again.
>
> They can be pleasant, or very unappealing.. some I have entered only
> to leave straight away due to the rubbish left behind by others or the
> numerous crowd.
>
> Some have time limits of 20 hours (one state), some have signs 'no
> camping' and there looks to be a consensus that a time limit will be
> applied to avoid; the rest area being full of multi-day 'campers' so
> people wanting a break will not find it full the commercial camp
> grounds being devoid of paying customers who are at 'rest areas'
>
> This apparently lead the RMS NSW to putting up 'no camping' signs at
> rest areas along the Pacific Hwy.
>
> I think the difference between the two is relevant ... and usefull.
> Much rather get to a proper camp ground than find myself at a rest area.
> Even a local sports ground, church yard, cemetery or park can be much
> better than a rest area. These areas too have social pressures for 'no
> camping'. I would never mark them as camp sites unless that is normal
> there.
> (If you want to 'see' the varieties of camp sites unofficially used ..
> google 'stealth camping'.)
> P.S. If you want a quite, peaceful rest area .. try a cemetery.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

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Re: Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Nicholas G Lawrence
Following on, I should point out that Qld TMR's view of Rest Areas is that they are a safety feature of the roads, specifically to combat fatigue, which makes them different to camp sites.

Cheers,
Nick Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas G Lawrence [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, 24 April 2017 9:48 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Quoting from the "Guide to Queensland Roads" by Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads.

"Motorist Rest Areas
- Rest areas are there for you to stop and rest, making your trip safer and more enjoyable.
- Rest areas are not long-term camping sites. However motorists are able to take extended rest breaks at some sites.
- Rules on the length of stay at rest areas vary between controlling authorities
- Motorists can stay up to 20 hours, including overnight, at some Transport and Main Roads rest areas shown in blue.
- Caravans and motorhomes are not considered heavy vehicles, and should not stop at heavy vehicle locations.
- Motorists cannot stay overnight at Transport and Main Roads rest areas shown in red."

I should also point out that some rest areas are for Motorists, some for Heavy Vehicles, and some cater for both.

There are also Driver Reviver spots which may also be useful to capture?

Cheers,
Nick Lawrence



-----Original Message-----
From: cleary [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, 22 April 2017 10:28 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites


I draw a parallel with other amenities. Some cafes are licensed to sell limited alcohol but that does not make them pubs; and some pubs serve coffee but that does not make them  cafes.  And both cafes and pubs often serve food.  While there can be overlap in services provided by amenities, map users are best served by the use of terms that help them understand the main purpose of the amenity.

I share the concern about confusing rest areas and camping sites.  To the average person, "rest areas" are for relatively shorter stays, perhaps just half an hour or sometimes overnight but not for longer periods. In contrast "camping sites" can be for just one night but are more commonly used for longer stays.  

Areas by the side of roads are "rest areas" and are usually signposted as such.  I think it better that roadside rest areas be labelled as "rest area" in OSM with additional tags used to add detail about specific facilities etc available at the rest area.








On Fri, Apr 21, 2017, at 09:50 PM, Warin wrote:

> On 21-Apr-17 07:40 PM, David Bannon wrote:
> > On 20/04/17 19:50, Warin wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks. Sometimes my 'plain English' understanding gets the better
> >> of the 'OSM meanings'!
> > Hmm, I think people in caravans do think they are camping. If there
> > is a sign, "no camping" we assume it means no caravans too.
>
> True.
> The 'officials' seam to be thinking that a single over night 'rest' is
> fine, but multiple nights = camping and that is not fine.. at least
> that is my impression from the grey nomads site.
> Anyone trying to turf someone 'resting due to fatigue' - even
> overnight
> - would be on thin ground before a reasonable court as we are advised
> to 'rest' when tired.
> >
> >> a) I do think that 'rest areas' should be tagged using the rest
> >> area tag.
> > Honestly, I have never tagged a rest area. I go straight to thinking
> > of it as a potential camp site, if not, I don't bother. Sorry....
> > So I just read the rest_area key and I must say, its not really very
> > useful IMHO. As its a key to highway= it needs to be applied to a
> > way and not the surrounding area perhaps ?  Generally people don't
> > camp on the drive through part but off the side. Mind you, have see
> > a few people who have just stopped, closed the curtains and nod off !
>
> Arr .. yes well the key has never been 'discussed', just put up by a
> mapper. Presently it is shown as applying to nodes and areas, not ways
> .. but if you go to the talk page you'll see some comments there
> (including mine).
> Better include a link for those that want a look
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area
>
> >>
> >> b) Using the tag 'tourism=camp_site' to me implies that I should be
> >> able to set up a tent there.
> > Thats because you think "camp" means tent only. We've established
> > that people camp using all sorts of infrastructure. Even truckies
> > talk about 'camping' at some place or another.
> >
> You have made your point there. But I would find it strange to go to a
> 'camp site' and be unable to pitch a tent because it was unsuitable.
> Think you'd find it strange to go to a camp site that did not have
> space for a caravan? :) Quite a few rest areas don't have suitable
> tent areas. A caravan only needs a longer parking space.
>
> >> c) If they are appropriate for caravans/camper vans then there is
> >> the caravan_site or caravan=yes tag that would better represent the
> >> features facility?
> > I don't use tourism=caravan_site because I consider =camp_site more
> > appropriate there being so many similarities and little point in
> > distinguishing.  But I do use caravan=yes/no as a key to
> > tourism=camp_site. In deference to your good self, I might use
> > tent=yes/no a bit more often now :-)
> Thanks ... I have used the caravan bits in areas set aside for them on
> occasion.
> >
> >  I really think the camp_site part needs to be tagged because it
> > allows a large range of informative tags to be added. Toilets,
> > water, rubbish disposal, web_site and so on. So, would it work to
> > tag the road part highway=rest_area and surrounding area tourism=camp_site ?
> > Be OK for big ones like archers-creek-rest-area but smaller ones ?
> Don't see any reason why these features cannot be added to the rest
> area key/value.
> >
> > I guess my point here is a rest_area is a camp site and visa versa.
> > Some allow you to camp overnight, some don't. Some might allow it
> > but would be horrible. Just what information are we trying to impart ?
>
> Errr No.
>
> A camp site, to me, means I can stay there for quite some time. They
> are usually pleasant places to stay with some comfort.
> They are intended for people to;
> stay, at least overnight and
> relax at.
>
> A rest area will be;
> intended for people to relieve their driving fatigue buy taking a
> short break, close to a busy road and probably have constant visits
> from people stopping for a rest .. say 15 to 30 minutes for a truck
> driver under their rules, sometimes longer...
> and then they are off again.
>
> They can be pleasant, or very unappealing.. some I have entered only
> to leave straight away due to the rubbish left behind by others or the
> numerous crowd.
>
> Some have time limits of 20 hours (one state), some have signs 'no
> camping' and there looks to be a consensus that a time limit will be
> applied to avoid; the rest area being full of multi-day 'campers' so
> people wanting a break will not find it full the commercial camp
> grounds being devoid of paying customers who are at 'rest areas'
>
> This apparently lead the RMS NSW to putting up 'no camping' signs at
> rest areas along the Pacific Hwy.
>
> I think the difference between the two is relevant ... and usefull.
> Much rather get to a proper camp ground than find myself at a rest area.
> Even a local sports ground, church yard, cemetery or park can be much
> better than a rest area. These areas too have social pressures for 'no
> camping'. I would never mark them as camp sites unless that is normal
> there.
> (If you want to 'see' the varieties of camp sites unofficially used ..
> google 'stealth camping'.)
> P.S. If you want a quite, peaceful rest area .. try a cemetery.
>
>
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