Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

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Re: Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

Warin
On 20/08/19 18:38, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> Kevin Kenny wrote:
>> There's also something to be said for using the ugly editors to
>> prove the concept, because at this point, we don't yet know how
>> to do everything, much less how to make it novice-friendly! The
>> exception is simple linear routes, and Sarah or I can give you
>> algorithms - or at least heuristics - for maintaining sort order
>> on those.
> I have an algorithm like that too - it skeletonises dual carriageways and
> roundabouts, hops over small jumps, and so on. But that's very different
> from the steps to implement in an online editor, which has many more
> constraints. (P2 doesn't have access to the full set of JTS/PostGIS tools,
> for example!) _If_ the issues can be identified clearly and the realistic
> steps to fix them enumerated, then we're getting somewhere.
>
>> I do want editors minimally to observe the 'don't break the route'
>> principle. About 80% of the broken-route problem can be solved
>> simply by, "when splitting a way, both the pieces become members
>> of any route relations in which the original way appeared, with the
>> same role if one is specified, preferably preserving continuity if
>> either or both endpoints was shared with the neighbouring way
>> in the relation." At least iD, Meerkartor and JOSM all do that.
> As does P2, I believe (I didn't write that bit of code) - iD's code might
> actually be based on P2's. That does make me wonder how much of a problem
> this is in reality if the four major desktop editors already support it.

I don't know.

I think some separate a way and insert a new roundabout .. the new roundabout does not go into the relations.

I have had some that were broken by the additions of turn restrictions. Never bothered to find out what they did, just fixed them and got on with life.
Usually they are iD edits, I suspect most people use iD, particularly those just starting out so it is no real guide as to potential iD problems.

>
>> For what it's worth, I think that the "route editing is complex"
>> problem partly drives the 'startled warthog' and '1980s throwback'
>> issues. In my experience, newer and prettier UI's try so very hard
>> to be pretty and novice-friendly that in many cases, they simply
>> reach a ceiling of complexity beyond which they can't cope or
>> become an obstacle to the power user.
> Generally I tend to think that a data model that can't be edited with a
> simple UI is a bad data model; and that "power users" are a curse on
> Wikipedia and rapidly becoming the same in OSM, especially when their main
> role is to generate abstruse content as self-gratification but which no-one
> will ever actually consume. But that's just me being a grumpy old man too.
> :)

That is an expanding club. Generally life membership is granted.


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Re: Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]>:
> Kenny:
> I do want editors minimally to observe the 'don't break the route'
> principle. About 80% of the broken-route problem can be solved
> simply by, "when splitting a way, both the pieces become members
> of any route relations in which the original way appeared, with the
> same role if one is specified, preferably preserving continuity if
> either or both endpoints was shared with the neighbouring way
> in the relation." At least iD, Meerkartor and JOSM all do that.

As does P2, I believe (I didn't write that bit of code) - iD's code might
actually be based on P2's. That does make me wonder how much of a problem
this is in reality if the four major desktop editors already support it.

Web editors you mean? 
 I do regular maintenance for about 50 national and regional named and waymarked hiking routes and their variants,  This involves checking integrity and ensuring that there is a linear main route which can simply be extracted for further processing in route editors, apps, gps devices and trip planner sites. When I have a route finished without any problems, then return a month later, it invariably has several breaks and flaws which make simple extraction as one ordered linear track impossible. These are almost always caused by online edits to the map. Other routes and relations maintainers will experience the same. As long as there are enough people who care, it gets fixed. Using the proper tools, that is not very difficult if you know what you are doing. As soon as they stop, the routes deteriorate quickly. Not only structural, but also the changes no longer find their way to OSM. 


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Re: Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Warin
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 11:17, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

[editors and/or mappers]

I think some separate a way and insert a new roundabout .. the new roundabout does not go into the relations.

This is the sort of problem that iD could cause, a year or two ago.  You could delete or
disconnect ways that were in a route relation without iD complaining, or warning you
that you were going to break a relation.  That changed.  Now, in that situation, iD does
an impression of HAL in the film 2001: "I can't let you do that, Dave."  Tricking iD into
letting you do it is even harder than tricking HAL was. If you do manage to do it,
you'll have some route repairs to do afterwards, but that's going to be the case
with any editor if you break a way to insert a roundabout.

I don't know if iD catches every possible way you could accidentally break a relation.
But I don't know if any of the other editors do that either.  I doubt their authors would
guarantee that they could never accidentally break a relation (in fact, I hope none of
those authors would make such a claim, because it's impossible to be sure).

I have had some that were broken by the additions of turn restrictions. Never bothered
to find out what they did, just fixed them and got on with life.  Usually they are iD edits,
I suspect most people use iD, particularly those just starting out so it is no real guide
as to potential iD problems.

Again, that WAS the case in the past.  It no longer is, at least not for common ways of
accidentally breaking a relation (where "common" is defined as "stuff I do or have
done recently").

--
Paul




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Garmin waypoints and routes (was: "Roles of route members" and before that "Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking")

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson
On 19/08/2019 19:04, Peter Elderson wrote:

Ok, I accept I just don't know how it's done. So how is that done? How do I tell my Garmin to guide me along, say, the Limes trail through the Netherlands?

Essentially, you'd just look at the screen and follow that!  I tend to use waypoints for an idea of things like "how long will it be until I get to where I'm going to stop for lunch", not for "turn left here because route XYZ turns left here", because you can see on the screen that route XYZ "turns left here".

If you want to add a series of waypoints and route along those then you can, but want you can't typically do with one of the hiking-oriented Garmins is follow a particular feature.  You could create an OSM-based Garmin map that forced a device to route along a trail at the expense of any other paths, but I certainly wouldn't want to do that as it would stop me from leaving the trail to eat in a nearby town.

Creating a Garmin route from a GPX file is possible, but probably impractical, as you'd need to restrict the number of points.  Apparently my GPSMap 64 supports 200 routes with 250 points per route, and up to 5000 waypoints in total.

Where Garmin on-device routing is really useful is for when you need to get to somewhere but don't have an on-screen route to follow - for example if the weather's turned and you need to abort a previously planned route and get another route to your destination from where you currently are.  It's also useful where there are natural obstacles like rivers, where the distance on foot may be significantly more than the as-the-crow-flies distance.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: Garmin waypoints and routes (was: "Roles of route members" and before that "Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking")

Kevin Kenny-3
On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:42 AM Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Where Garmin on-device routing is really useful is for when you need to get to somewhere but don't have an on-screen route to follow - for example if the weather's turned and you need to abort a previously planned route and get another route to your destination from where you currently are.  It's also useful where there are natural obstacles like rivers, where the distance on foot may be significantly more than the as-the-crow-flies distance.

Thanks for that insight! Without it, I was having trouble figuring out
why you'd ever use on-device routing for a hike. Hiking is so seldom
about finding the easiest path from A to B!  And I should have thought
of that, because one thing on my 'bucket list' that may well remain
unfulfilled is the ambition to climb Mount Washington in New
Hampshire, and descend on the side where my car is parked. The routing
I'd want in a lot of cases would be 'shortest time to get into tree
cover' or 'shortest time to get to a paved road.' (For 'time', if I'm
doing an estimate for a group, I use "2 miles (3.2 km) per hour, add
40 minutes for every thousand feet (300 m) of elevation change - up or
down. Maybe fiddle the number if there are fords, rock scrambles, or
other known slowdowns." Sorry for working in Freedom Units - it's
what's printed on the maps around here.)

My personal use of GPS when hiking tends to be to pull it out every
half-hour or so as a cross-check on navigation. A little more often,
perhaps, if I know that I've departed a trail and I'm trying to choose
a heading back to it. I tend to favour hiking on trails where you
*will* lose the trail from time to time, or rather abandon it, because
of a rock slide, a microburst, or a flood. The last is particularly
common, because our good friend Castor canadensis has a way of
modifying the landscape faster than the trail builders can respond,
partly because he never troubles to get planning permission or write
an environmental impact statement. Moreover, once you are more than a
few km from the nearest highway, all trails get pretty approximate. I
have the impression that trails in your part of the world are a lot
better defined and maintained.
--
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

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Re: Garmin waypoints and routes (was: "Roles of route members" and before that "Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking")

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
Andy Townsend <[hidden email]>:

On 19/08/2019 19:04, Peter Elderson wrote:

Ok, I accept I just don't know how it's done. So how is that done? How do I tell my Garmin to guide me along, say, the Limes trail through the Netherlands? 

Essentially, you'd just look at the screen and follow that!  I tend to use waypoints for an idea of things like "how long will it be until I get to where I'm going to stop for lunch", not for "turn left here because route XYZ turns left here", because you can see on the screen that route XYZ "turns left here".


So it’s not done. The osm route is not used to route. You can see it and keep yor dot on the line, but the navigating device does not navigate along the route. It can navigate, it has the route, but it does not do it unless I create gpx from the route, send that to the device, which then recreates the route from the gpx.

If you want to add a series of waypoints and route along those then you can, but want you can't typically do with one of the hiking-oriented Garmins is follow a particular feature.  You could create an OSM-based Garmin map that forced a device to route along a trail at the expense of any other paths, but I certainly wouldn't want to do that as it would stop me from leaving the trail to eat in a nearby town.


Nothing stops you from leaving the route, and I expect the device to route me back to the track afterwards. And it does, and so does OsmAnd.

Creating a Garmin route from a GPX file is possible, but probably impractical, as you'd need to restrict the number of points.  Apparently my GPSMap 64 supports 200 routes with 250 points per route, and up to 5000 waypoints in total.

If only there were a way to store permanent routes in, say, a mapping database, which could be used to determine what ways to follow...

You only need to load the section(s) for the next day or a few days. Afterwards, just remove them. No problem. I have had no problems to load the via degli dei as 7 sections, each a day’s walk. No restrictions necessary.

I also loaded these in OsmAnd and had it guide me all the way voice-in-ear, ie not having to look at the screen at all. 

Where Garmin on-device routing is really useful is for when you need to get to somewhere but don't have an on-screen route to follow - for example if the weather's turned and you need to abort a previously planned route and get another route to your destination from where you currently are.  It's also useful where there are natural obstacles like rivers, where the distance on foot may be significantly more than the as-the-crow-flies distance.

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: Garmin waypoints and routes (was: "Roles of route members" and before that "Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking")

Peter Elderson
I have to correct myself: I thought OsmAnd really performed routing when navigating using a gpx trail. It doesn't, I tested it today. It translates turns in the track into screen messgaes and spoken text messages, without doing anything with the map. So it will send you into a ravine if your track goes there. 
But it can route you to the start of your track, and when you go off-track, it routes you back on track.

All the more reason why the gpx should be a correctly ordered single chain.

Fr gr Peter Elderson


Op di 20 aug. 2019 om 16:57 schreef Peter Elderson <[hidden email]>:
Andy Townsend <[hidden email]>:

On 19/08/2019 19:04, Peter Elderson wrote:

Ok, I accept I just don't know how it's done. So how is that done? How do I tell my Garmin to guide me along, say, the Limes trail through the Netherlands? 

Essentially, you'd just look at the screen and follow that!  I tend to use waypoints for an idea of things like "how long will it be until I get to where I'm going to stop for lunch", not for "turn left here because route XYZ turns left here", because you can see on the screen that route XYZ "turns left here".


So it’s not done. The osm route is not used to route. You can see it and keep yor dot on the line, but the navigating device does not navigate along the route. It can navigate, it has the route, but it does not do it unless I create gpx from the route, send that to the device, which then recreates the route from the gpx.

If you want to add a series of waypoints and route along those then you can, but want you can't typically do with one of the hiking-oriented Garmins is follow a particular feature.  You could create an OSM-based Garmin map that forced a device to route along a trail at the expense of any other paths, but I certainly wouldn't want to do that as it would stop me from leaving the trail to eat in a nearby town.


Nothing stops you from leaving the route, and I expect the device to route me back to the track afterwards. And it does, and so does OsmAnd.

Creating a Garmin route from a GPX file is possible, but probably impractical, as you'd need to restrict the number of points.  Apparently my GPSMap 64 supports 200 routes with 250 points per route, and up to 5000 waypoints in total.

If only there were a way to store permanent routes in, say, a mapping database, which could be used to determine what ways to follow...

You only need to load the section(s) for the next day or a few days. Afterwards, just remove them. No problem. I have had no problems to load the via degli dei as 7 sections, each a day’s walk. No restrictions necessary.

I also loaded these in OsmAnd and had it guide me all the way voice-in-ear, ie not having to look at the screen at all. 

Where Garmin on-device routing is really useful is for when you need to get to somewhere but don't have an on-screen route to follow - for example if the weather's turned and you need to abort a previously planned route and get another route to your destination from where you currently are.  It's also useful where there are natural obstacles like rivers, where the distance on foot may be significantly more than the as-the-crow-flies distance.

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: Garmin waypoints and routes (was: "Roles of route members" and before that "Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking")

voschix


On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 20:48, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to correct myself: I thought OsmAnd really performed routing when navigating using a gpx trail. It doesn't, I tested it today. It translates turns in the track into screen messgaes and spoken text messages, without doing anything with the map. So it will send you into a ravine if your track goes there. 
I knew that. Already the original Garmin etrex of before 2010 was able to do soemthing similar (no voice, but visible signal of approach to a bend n the track)
But it can route you to the start of your track, and when you go off-track, it routes you back on track.

All the more reason why the gpx should be a correctly ordered single chain.
This is a Non sequitur, as I have tried to explain before.
Volker



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Re: Garmin waypoints and routes (was: "Roles of route members" and before that "Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking")

Peter Elderson
I'll say it again: at the moment, regular people can not get a decent gpx track of a trail out of osm unless it is pre-ordered. Single chain, sorted, no branches, hooks or major gaps. These gpx-s are needed for navigating apps and devices, so you can have them guide you exactly along the trail. Nederland has numerous fixed foot trails and an ever increasing crowd walks these trails. They are adopting the digital version of a trail guide very rapidly, comparable to the way car navigation conquered the world.

Please have a look at Nederland on the hiking map of waymarkedtrails to get an impression of the density of the walking trail system in the Netherlands.

Fr gr Peter Elderson


Op wo 21 aug. 2019 om 23:34 schreef Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]>:


On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 20:48, Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to correct myself: I thought OsmAnd really performed routing when navigating using a gpx trail. It doesn't, I tested it today. It translates turns in the track into screen messgaes and spoken text messages, without doing anything with the map. So it will send you into a ravine if your track goes there. 
I knew that. Already the original Garmin etrex of before 2010 was able to do soemthing similar (no voice, but visible signal of approach to a bend n the track)
But it can route you to the start of your track, and when you go off-track, it routes you back on track.

All the more reason why the gpx should be a correctly ordered single chain.
This is a Non sequitur, as I have tried to explain before.
Volker


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Re: Garmin waypoints and routes (was: "Roles of route members" and before that "Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking")

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson
Then again, OsmAnd does have a snap-to-road switch. When this is on, looking at the map when routing along a gpx-track does show the turns as arrows on the roads. When the track does not follow any accessible road (according to the OSM map), the arrows show a way around. It shows this for the whole gpx-track in advance. If you stray from the track, the arrows guide you back to the track,  and the voice directions do the same. Also, the remaining distance and time to reach destination are recalculated. So I think it actually does perform routing. 
Still, it needs a linear sorted gpx-track, and I intend to provide those. I'm not waiting for each and every app, program, device and site to implement their own supersmart algorithms to produce a linear route from a possibly chaotic and incosistent nested route relation. If standard extraction software becomes available to do this, I will be very, very happy. I am also more than willing to help develop such software (specs, design, testing, applying), and I am sorry I can't program it myself! 

(as a first step, a plugin for JOSM woud be safe and relatively easy I think? May it could take a route relation containing start- and end nodes, then perform the ingenious trick with routing where members of the relation get very high weight, then write the result back (to JOSM, not OSM). Advanced sorting!

Fr gr Peter Elderson


Op wo 21 aug. 2019 om 20:46 schreef Peter Elderson <[hidden email]>:
I have to correct myself: I thought OsmAnd really performed routing when navigating using a gpx trail. It doesn't, I tested it today. It translates turns in the track into screen messgaes and spoken text messages, without doing anything with the map. So it will send you into a ravine if your track goes there. 
But it can route you to the start of your track, and when you go off-track, it routes you back on track.

All the more reason why the gpx should be a correctly ordered single chain.

Fr gr Peter Elderson


Op di 20 aug. 2019 om 16:57 schreef Peter Elderson <[hidden email]>:
Andy Townsend <[hidden email]>:

On 19/08/2019 19:04, Peter Elderson wrote:

Ok, I accept I just don't know how it's done. So how is that done? How do I tell my Garmin to guide me along, say, the Limes trail through the Netherlands? 

Essentially, you'd just look at the screen and follow that!  I tend to use waypoints for an idea of things like "how long will it be until I get to where I'm going to stop for lunch", not for "turn left here because route XYZ turns left here", because you can see on the screen that route XYZ "turns left here".


So it’s not done. The osm route is not used to route. You can see it and keep yor dot on the line, but the navigating device does not navigate along the route. It can navigate, it has the route, but it does not do it unless I create gpx from the route, send that to the device, which then recreates the route from the gpx.

If you want to add a series of waypoints and route along those then you can, but want you can't typically do with one of the hiking-oriented Garmins is follow a particular feature.  You could create an OSM-based Garmin map that forced a device to route along a trail at the expense of any other paths, but I certainly wouldn't want to do that as it would stop me from leaving the trail to eat in a nearby town.


Nothing stops you from leaving the route, and I expect the device to route me back to the track afterwards. And it does, and so does OsmAnd.

Creating a Garmin route from a GPX file is possible, but probably impractical, as you'd need to restrict the number of points.  Apparently my GPSMap 64 supports 200 routes with 250 points per route, and up to 5000 waypoints in total.

If only there were a way to store permanent routes in, say, a mapping database, which could be used to determine what ways to follow...

You only need to load the section(s) for the next day or a few days. Afterwards, just remove them. No problem. I have had no problems to load the via degli dei as 7 sections, each a day’s walk. No restrictions necessary.

I also loaded these in OsmAnd and had it guide me all the way voice-in-ear, ie not having to look at the screen at all. 

Where Garmin on-device routing is really useful is for when you need to get to somewhere but don't have an on-screen route to follow - for example if the weather's turned and you need to abort a previously planned route and get another route to your destination from where you currently are.  It's also useful where there are natural obstacles like rivers, where the distance on foot may be significantly more than the as-the-crow-flies distance.

Best Regards,

Andy


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