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Dear List,
I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
Please let me know what you think
Many thanks Best regards Francesco _______________________________________________
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Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal as such.
Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no is used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
Volker
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli < [hidden email]> wrote: Dear List,
I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
Please let me know what you think
Many thanks Best regards Francesco
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Dear Volker,
I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify it. Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop... Please check this discussion:
Cheers Francesco
Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal as such.
Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no is used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
Volker
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli < [hidden email]> wrote: Dear List,
I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
Please let me know what you think
Many thanks Best regards Francesco
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The current usage is that, "Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that the start and finish of the route are at the same location". As in a route from Paris to Milano to Frankfurt then back to Paris would be tagged as roundtrip=yes. You have edited the wiki against established usage to make it become a no. A word used as a key isn't perfect doesn't mean you can suddenly edit the wiki to change its definition without regard of all the established usage in the osm database.
Dear Volker,
I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify it. Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop... Please check this discussion:
Cheers Francesco
Please relable your "roundtrip" proposal as such.
Please do not change the meaning of an established tag. roundtrip=yes|no is used about 34k times, based on a different definition, see
Volker
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 15:18, Francesco Ansanelli < [hidden email]> wrote: Dear List,
I have updated the roundtrip page and created the closed loop proposal in order to address the misuse of the first tag:
Please let me know what you think
Many thanks Best regards Francesco
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The current usage is that, "Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that the start and finish of the route are at the same location". As in a route from Paris to Milano to Frankfurt then back to Paris would be tagged as roundtrip=yes. You have edited the wiki against established usage to make it become a no. A word used as a key isn't perfect doesn't mean you can suddenly edit the wiki to change its definition without regard of all the established usage in the osm database.
The question is, current tagging respect original author intention? Unlucky Roundtrip change meaning between American and British English afaict. I've discussed also with another mapper and we agreed to fix wiki in order to avoid further misunderstandings.
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On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 21:45, Francesco Ansanelli < [hidden email]> wrote: The current usage is that, "Use roundtrip=yes to indicate that the start and finish of the route are at the same location". As in a route from Paris to Milano to Frankfurt then back to Paris would be tagged as roundtrip=yes. You have edited the wiki against established usage to make it become a no. A word used as a key isn't perfect doesn't mean you can suddenly edit the wiki to change its definition without regard of all the established usage in the osm database.
The question is, current tagging respect original author intention? Unlucky Roundtrip change meaning between American and British English afaict. I've discussed also with another mapper and we agreed to fix wiki in order to avoid further misunderstandings.
Dear Volker,
I haven't change the meaning of Roundtrip, but just reworded to clarify it. Roundtrip yes is not a closed loop... Please check this discussion:
Francesco, you have changed the meaning of the tag from inluding the possibility of a loop to exluding it. And I am aware of a number of (cycling) routes that are loops and that are tagged with roundtrip=yes accordng to the previous version of the wiki. Please revert the wiki.
Furthermore with your new defintion practially or at least many cycle routes are roundrip routes even though everyone would consdere them as linear routes. Nearly all "linear" bicycle routes to which I contributed can be ridden as roundtrip in the sense that they are signposted in both directions, and care has been taken in those sections where the forward and the backward route are different by using the foreward|backward roles. The (fewer) routes with loop geometry as well can be ridden in either direction.
Volker
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sent from a phone
> On 19. Dec 2019, at 22:16, Volker Schmidt < [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> you have changed the meaning of the tag from inluding the possibility of a loop to exluding it.
it may be too early to change definitions, but previous discussions have shown that there was confusion about the roundtrip tag also before, and the definition that start and end of the route have to be the same is also satisfied with actual roundtrips (A-B and back).
IMHO we should discourage the roundtrip tag altogether and establish alternative tags for the cases that should be covered (loops and back and forth or oneway) if they are required.
Cheers Martin
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If a route ends where it begins, it's a roundtrip, but you don't need to tag that because it's in the relation. The only thing I find useful is tagging roundtrip=yes when the route is not a true closed loop, but still catalogues for hikers as a roundtrip, even though it may have branches and shortcuts.
For automated checks closed_loop=yes might come in handy. If the tag is there but the route is not a true closed loop, it needs maintenance in OSM.
Mvg Peter Elderson
> Op 19 dec. 2019 om 22:40 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer < [hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 19. Dec 2019, at 22:16, Volker Schmidt < [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> you have changed the meaning of the tag from inluding the possibility of a loop to exluding it.
>
> it may be too early to change definitions, but previous discussions have shown that there was confusion about the roundtrip tag also before, and the definition that start and end of the route have to be the same is also satisfied with actual roundtrips (A-B and back).
> IMHO we should discourage the roundtrip tag altogether and establish alternative tags for the cases that should be covered (loops and back and forth or oneway) if they are required.
>
> Cheers Martin
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I'm not a mother tongue but:
: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
round tripnoun A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route. Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.
route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.
Revert your change.
How about a voting?
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Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the meaning of the term in British English.
I'm not a mother tongue but:
: a trip to a place and back usually over the same route
A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route.
round tripnoun A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route. Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the definition.
route that does not go from A to B and back along the same route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such your rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.
Revert your change.
How about a voting?
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I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty
years. A trip from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully
reversed route or an alternative route, would could be described
as a round trip. There is certainly no element of a curved or
looping route required to make it a round trip.
HTH
Chris
--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other resources you have
quoted are dictionary for American English, not the variant of
English used by OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on
the wiki talk page have explained the meaning of the term in
British English.
I'm not a mother tongue but:
: a
trip to a place and back usually over the same
route
A
trip from one place to another and back, usually over
the same route.
round
trip
noun
A
trip from one place to another and back, usually
over the same route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match the
definition.
route that does not go from A to B and back along the
same route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As such
your rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.
Revert your change.
How about a voting?
If you want to signify a route that goes from A to B
and back along the
same route invent another tag, roundtrip is not it.
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On 20/12/19 10:15, Chris Hill wrote:
I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty
years. A trip from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully
reversed route or an alternative route, would could be described
as a round trip. There is certainly no element of a curved or
looping route required to make it a round trip.
Nor is there anything in 'round trip' to exclude a curved circular
route. Would be interesting to find the origin of 'round trip'.
HTH
Chris
--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick
wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other resources you
have quoted are dictionary for American English, not the
variant of English used by OSM. Posts by original author of
the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the meaning of
the term in British English.
I'm not a mother tongue but:
: a
trip to a place and back usually over the
same route
Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a
journey to a place and back again
Nothing about 'over the same route'.
A
trip from one place to another and back, usually over
the same route.
round
trip
noun
A
trip from one place to another and back, usually
over the same route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match
the definition.
route that does not go from A to B and back along
the same route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As
such your rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.
Revert your change.
How about a voting?
You may have done that before your change.
As I understand it you want to distinguish between routes that use
the same route to return to the same place compared to those routes
that return to the same place by a different route or at least
sections are different.
At present both of those are in OSMs 'roundtrip'. Would not this
information be obtained by looking at the route as mapped in OSM? Is
there a need to add this information?
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> On 20. Dec 2019, at 01:16, Warin < [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a journey to a place and back again
it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way. The word “Rundweg” which apparently was the concept that should have been defined (IIRC our former discussions about this topic) would not correctly be translated as roundtrip, despite the similar wording. Closed loop would have my support (although I also agree that it should generally be in the geometry of the route, personally I would not bother adding a special property for it, also because I am less interested in official start and end points or “checkpoints” in the middle)
Cheers Martin
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On 20/12/19 11:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 20. Dec 2019, at 01:16, Warin < [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a journey to a place and back again
>
> it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
Why does it make it likely? I don't see it.
I think I have only used it on a public transport route.
In any event .. these properties could be determined using the ways that make up the route. So why is it necessary to tag it?
Is work being made for mappers that can be easily determined by the renders?
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On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer < [hidden email]> wrote:
it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
Sorry, Martin, not at all. I do a weekly round trip of ~38 klm - roughly 13 k down & 15 k back, mainly because I leave the Motorway at exit 92 but have to come back on at exit 95. & if the Motorway is too busy that day, I may well come home up the Highway, which will be 12 k home (but 15 minutes longer time), but it's still a "round trip"
Also, what is the definition of "same way"?
I travel down the southbound lanes of the Motorway & come back up the northern lanes, about 100 m's away from where I travelled down - is that the "same"?
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I think roundtrip is not about the route taken, but about the transport taking you somewhere, you do your thing there, then transport back to where you started. It's more like a service kind of thing. I don't use it when the relation shows exactly what the route is. I only find it useful to indicate that a route should be regarded as a roundtrip, even though the relation contains branches, excursions or shortcuts.
For hiking, a hiking route A to B waymarked in two directions is not a roundtrip. A hiking route ending where you started when you follow one direction all the time, may be seen as a roundtrip, because the 'transport' takes you back to back to to starting point.
Mvg Peter Elderson Op 20 dec. 2019 om 04:21 heeft Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer < [hidden email]> wrote:
it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
Sorry, Martin, not at all. I do a weekly round trip of ~38 klm - roughly 13 k down & 15 k back, mainly because I leave the Motorway at exit 92 but have to come back on at exit 95. & if the Motorway is too busy that day, I may well come home up the Highway, which will be 12 k home (but 15 minutes longer time), but it's still a "round trip"
Also, what is the definition of "same way"?
I travel down the southbound lanes of the Motorway & come back up the northern lanes, about 100 m's away from where I travelled down - is that the "same"?
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Il ven 20 dic 2019, 04:21 Graeme Fitzpatrick < [hidden email]> ha scritto: On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer < [hidden email]> wrote:
it’s in the “back again”, makes it likely you take the same way.
Sorry, Martin, not at all. I do a weekly round trip of ~38 klm - roughly 13 k down & 15 k back, mainly because I leave the Motorway at exit 92 but have to come back on at exit 95. & if the Motorway is too busy that day, I may well come home up the Highway, which will be 12 k home (but 15 minutes longer time), but it's still a "round trip"
Also, what is the definition of "same way"?
I think that if your return change some way (how about a one way in departure? You may not do the same segment literally) but it's almost the same route, it's completely different from a loop...
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On 20/12/19 10:15, Chris Hill wrote:
I have been a native British English speaker for about sixty
years. A trip from A to B and then back to A, either on a fully
reversed route or an alternative route, would could be described
as a round trip. There is certainly no element of a curved or
looping route required to make it a round trip.
Nor is there anything in 'round trip' to exclude a curved circular
route. Would be interesting to find the origin of 'round trip'.
HTH
Chris
--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick
wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other resources you
have quoted are dictionary for American English, not the
variant of English used by OSM. Posts by original author of
the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the meaning of
the term in British English.
I'm not a mother tongue but:
: a
trip to a place and back usually over the
same route
Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK English): a
journey to a place and back again
Nothing about 'over the same route'.
But also not the circular word...
A
trip from one place to another and back, usually over
the same route.
round
trip
noun
A
trip from one place to another and back, usually
over the same route.
Idk if it's clearer why I tried to match
the definition.
route that does not go from A to B and back along
the same route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A via D. As
such your rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.
Revert your change.
How about a voting?
You may have done that before your change.
Sorry for being "rude"... When in Rome...
As I understand it you want to distinguish between routes that use
the same route to return to the same place compared to those routes
that return to the same place by a different route or at least
sections are different.
At present both of those are in OSMs 'roundtrip'. Would not this
information be obtained by looking at the route as mapped in OSM?
I think a tag may enforce it
Is
there a need to add this information?
If you split a segment in future a validator may say route with closed_loop=yes not a loop... A Roundtrip could be simply tagged and mapped in one direction in my opinion
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On 20/12/19 17:18, Francesco Ansanelli
wrote:
On 20/12/19 10:15, Chris Hill wrote:
I have been a native British English speaker for
about sixty years. A trip from A to B and then back
to A, either on a fully reversed route or an
alternative route, would could be described as a
round trip. There is certainly no element of a
curved or looping route required to make it a round
trip.
Nor is there anything in 'round trip' to exclude a
curved circular route. Would be interesting to find the
origin of 'round trip'.
HTH
Chris
--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
Merriam Webster and some other
resources you have quoted are dictionary for
American English, not the variant of English used
by OSM. Posts by original author of the topic on
the wiki talk page have explained the meaning of
the term in British English.
I'm not a mother tongue but:
: a
trip to a place and back usually
over the same route
Oxford Dictionary (usually taken as a good source for UK
English): a
journey to a place and back again
Nothing about 'over the same route'.
But also not the circular word...
A
trip from one place to another and back,
usually over the same route.
round trip
noun
A
trip from one place to another and
back, usually over the same route.
Idk if it's clearer why I
tried to match the definition.
route that
does not go from A to B and back along
the same route, it
could go A to B to C and then back to A
via D. As such your rewording is
wrong and does not match present use.
Revert your change.
How about a voting?
You may have done that before your change.
Sorry for being "rude"... When in Rome...
As I understand it you want to distinguish between
routes that use the same route to return to the same
place compared to those routes that return to the same
place by a different route or at least sections are
different.
At present both of those are in OSMs 'roundtrip'. Would
not this information be obtained by looking at the route
as mapped in OSM?
I think a tag may enforce it
So all the existing round trips will have to be deleted or re-tagged
with something else .. as they may not meet this definition. I know
the route I have tagged round trip doers not, so to avoid incorrect
data they will all have to be deleted.
All the past editors who have learnt the old definition will
probably continue to use it from the old definition - meaning errors
will be constantly introduced.
The editors may have top be rejigged too.
Is there a need to
add this information?
By that I mean renders may determine it for themselves using the OSM
data? If so then this tag is of no real use.
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:roundtrip#loop
A bus that goes from A to B and returns 'using the same route' will
have to turn around .. and that turning will not be using the same
route .. so it does not meet a strict definition of 'using the same
route'.
There are too many problems introduced by this new definition of
roundtrip.
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