Routing "islands"

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Routing "islands"

Ben Kelley-4
Hi.

I noticed this the other day: Geofabrik Tools has a Routing layer that highlights "islands".

Islands are ways that you cannot route to, and generally point to a problem somewhere.

The routing layer only seems to apply to Europe, and puts hashing over the rest of the world, although the pink "Islands" overlay does work for Australia.

e.g. See this section of Sydney:

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=routing&lon=151.08138&lat=-33.86157&zoom=15

This shows a section of the M4 that could not be reached. It was due to a bridge incorrectly marked as being the wrong way. (Now fixed.)

Here's another one that is not fixed yet:

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=routing&lon=150.82846&lat=-33.75053&zoom=15

I haven't looked into that one yet, but I suspect one end of the road (or both ends) is not connected to the surrounding streets.

It's quite a useful tool.

 - Ben Kelley.


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Re: Routing "islands"

Alex Sims
On 12/10/2012 4:40 PM, Ben Kelley wrote:

> I noticed this the other day: Geofabrik Tools has a Routing layer that
> highlights "islands".
>
> Islands are ways that you cannot route to, and generally point to a
> problem somewhere.
>
> The routing layer only seems to apply to Europe, and puts hashing over
> the rest of the world, although the pink "Islands" overlay does work
> for Australia.
>
> e.g. See this section of Sydney:
>
> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=routing&lon=151.08138&lat=-33.86157&zoom=15
Ben,

That's quite a useful find. There seem to be all sorts of "extras" in
the OSMI tools in that more works than the documentation or the provided
interfaces suggest.

Alex

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Re: Routing "islands"

Nick Hocking
In reply to this post by Ben Kelley-4
Hi ben
 
 
 
gets the routing outside europe  ( I had the same problem and went looking for this url)
 
 
.
 
 
paints an even gloomier picture.  I am well on the way to fixing Canberra but the number of errors was/is amazing. I'm just about to do the floating Islands (orange in keep right).
 
Nick
 
 
 
 
 

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Re: Routing "islands"

John Henderson-7
On 12/10/12 20:34, Nick Hocking wrote:

> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/debug.html?view=routing_non_eu&lon=150.82846&lat=-33.7503&zoom=15&opacity=0.98
>
 > gets the routing outside europe  ( I had the same problem and went
> looking for this url)

That's much better, thanks.

> http://keepright.ipax.at/report_map.php?schema=50&error=38081608
> paints an even gloomier picture.  I am well on the way to fixing
> Canberra but the number of errors was/is amazing. I'm just about to
> do the floating Islands (orange in keep right).

I've been giving you a bit of a hand there, but mainly outside Canberra.

I apologise for not marking things I've fixed as "ignore temporarily
(error corrected)".  That's because I thought that flag was stored on my
own PC, and not visible to all.

Many intersections in Cootamundra had no connecting node.  These are
among the things I've fixed, although that problem was obviously
pre-redaction.

John




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Re: Routing "islands"

David Bannon-2
In reply to this post by Nick Hocking
Gee, thats pretty revealing !

I see a number of error there that I suspect I may have made, in particular relating to ways that are close but don't join another way. I think this highlights a lack of a "best practice" document on how to add ways to the map. I can remember getting warnings from JOSM on the subject, but the warnings say something to the effect that don't let that stop you from submitting the addition.

Considering the great tools available and the incredible effort by so many people, its a pity we don't have that "best practice", I suspect there is concern it may scare people away !

Hmm....

David


----- Original Message -----
From:
"Nick Hocking" <[hidden email]>

To:
<[hidden email]>
Cc:

Sent:
Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:34:00 +1100
Subject:
Re: [talk-au] Routing "islands"


Hi ben
 
 
 
gets the routing outside europe  ( I had the same problem and went looking for this url)
 
 
.
 
 
paints an even gloomier picture.  I am well on the way to fixing Canberra but the number of errors was/is amazing. I'm just about to do the floating Islands (orange in keep right).
 
Nick
 
 
 
 
 

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Re: Routing "islands"

Stephen Hope
Well, there's a couple of reasons why you might want to save it anyway with roads close together but not joining, so JOSM can't force you not to save it.  They might not actually join.  There's a couple of examples near me where roads end less than a meter away from another road, but don't join up.  Service roads, minor suburban streets and main streets where they used to join, but the main road has so much traffic now they've cut the connection, and a case where two new subdivisions had a road that was supposed to join, but the first guy stopped about a half meter short of the line, and the second one wouldn't pay the extra, so there's a tiny gap between the roads, and a curb.

Also, you might have been working on some other portion of the road, and not near where the error is. Just last week I fixed some stuff at one end of a road, and when I went to save it, it warned of errors at the other end, but I can't do anything about them until I go down there and see what the problem is.  I still want to save the work I've done so far, though.


Stephen


On 13 October 2012 15:25, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Gee, thats pretty revealing !

I see a number of error there that I suspect I may have made, in particular relating to ways that are close but don't join another way. I think this highlights a lack of a "best practice" document on how to add ways to the map. I can remember getting warnings from JOSM on the subject, but the warnings say something to the effect that don't let that stop you from submitting the addition.

Considering the great tools available and the incredible effort by so many people, its a pity we don't have that "best practice", I suspect there is concern it may scare people away !

Hmm....

David


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Re: Routing "islands"

David Bannon-2
 
Yes Stephen, I quite agree. I would not want decisions like that taken away from the end user. But maybe the warning should point out that in most cases, a junction node is required. I know that now but seems there is no easy way for a new comer to find out. (I have been submitting tracks for  several years.) Maybe I'll have a play with the wiki....

Anyway, that "keep right" website highlighted my errors from way back, and a heap of others, its a pretty useful tool. I have fixed a few and will keep at the ones I know about.

David

----- Original Message -----
From:
"Stephen Hope" <slhope@gmailcom>

To:
<[hidden email]>
Cc:

Sent:
Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:11:53 +1000
Subject:
Re: [talk-au] Routing "islands"


Well, there's a couple of reasons why you might want to save it anyway with roads close together but not joining, so JOSM can't force you not to save it.  They might not actually join.  There's a couple of examples near me where roads end less than a meter away from another road, but don't join up.  Service roads, minor suburban streets and main streets where they used to join, but the main road has so much traffic now they've cut the connection, and a case where two new subdivisions had a road that was supposed to join, but the first guy stopped about a half meter short of the line, and the second one wouldn't pay the extra, so there's a tiny gap between the roads, and a curb.

Also, you might have been working on some other portion of the road, and not near where the error is. Just last week I fixed some stuff at one end of a road, and when I went to save it, it warned of errors at the other end, but I can't do anything about them until I go down there and see what the problem is.  I still want to save the work I've done so far, though.


Stephen


On 13 October 2012 15:25, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Gee, thats pretty revealing !

I see a number of error there that I suspect I may have made, in particular relating to ways that are close but don't join another way. I think this highlights a lack of a "best practice" document on how to add ways to the map. I can remember getting warnings from JOSM on the subject, but the warnings say something to the effect that don't let that stop you from submitting the addition.

Considering the great tools available and the incredible effort by so many people, its a pity we don't have that "best practice", I suspect there is concern it may scare people away !

Hmm...

David


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Lots of amenities ?

David Bannon-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Hope
 

Hi folks, I have been fixing some of the errors that http://keepright.ipax.at/report_map.php?schema=50&error=38081608 tells us about.
I note that at some stage someone has logged that the General Store near me sells both fuel and fast food (and, for that matter, other stuff, its a post office for example). To tell OSM about both the fuel and fast food, they have put separate two POI in, I have just named it. It seems that does not render very well, only one shows up.

I really have not played with the amenity= stuff but I'd assume this is not a surprising issue ? Must be a lot of cases where one site provides a number of different amenities ? Anyone have a better way to deal with it ?

Search for Axedale, Victoria.

David


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Re: Lots of amenities ?

Ben Kelley-4

Hi.

Yes just put multiple nodes.

E.g. petrol station that has a toilet.

  - Ben.

On Oct 17, 2012 3:14 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

Hi folks, I have been fixing some of the errors that http://keepright.ipax.at/report_map.php?schema=50&error=38081608 tells us about.
I note that at some stage someone has logged that the General Store near me sells both fuel and fast food (and, for that matter, other stuff, its a post office for example). To tell OSM about both the fuel and fast food, they have put separate two POI in, I have just named it. It seems that does not render very well, only one shows up.

I really have not played with the amenity= stuff but I'd assume this is not a surprising issue ? Must be a lot of cases where one site provides a number of different amenities ? Anyone have a better way to deal with it ?

Search for Axedale, Victoria.

David


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Re: Lots of amenities ?

David Bannon-2
 
Thanks Ben, but maybe I'm a bit slow today ?

If there are multiple nodes all on (about) the same spot, then the rendering engines show only one. I guess its the 'top' one. If they are just a bit further apart, then you might see part of the lower ones. Not a good look either way.

Perhaps its just something we cannot do perfectly.

David

----- Original Message -----
From:
"Ben Kelley" <[hidden email]>

To:
<[hidden email]>
Cc:
<[hidden email]>
Sent:
Wed, 17 Oct 2012 16:20:09 +1100
Subject:
Re: [talk-au] Lots of amenities ?


Hi.

Yes just put multiple nodes.

E.g. petrol station that has a toilet.

  - Ben.

On Oct 17, 2012 3:14 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

Hi folks, I have been fixing some of the errors that http://keepright.ipax.at/report_map.php?schema=50&error=38081608 tells us about.
I note that at some stage someone has logged that the General Store near me sells both fuel and fast food (and, for that matter, other stuff, its a post office for example). To tell OSM about both the fuel and fast food, they have put separate two POI in, I have just named it. It seems that does not render very well, only one shows up.

I really have not played with the amenity= stuff but I'd assume this is not a surprising issue ? Must be a lot of cases where one site provides a number of different amenities ? Anyone have a better way to deal with it ?

Search for Axedale, Victoria.

David


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Re: Lots of amenities ?

Richard Weait
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:10 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks Ben, but maybe I'm a bit slow today ?
>
> If there are multiple nodes all on (about) the same spot, then the rendering
> engines show only one. I guess its the 'top' one. If they are just a bit
> further apart, then you might see part of the lower ones. Not a good look
> either way.
>
> Perhaps its just something we cannot do perfectly.

That's exactly it.  We can't do it perfectly, and not every rendering
will make the choice we might make ourselves.  Add the nodes, name and
address the building.  Routing and search should work properly.

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Re: Lots of amenities ?

Stephen Hope
In reply to this post by David Bannon-2
David,

It's up to the rendering engine how it wants to display the POI's.  It doesn't matter how far apart they are, if you zoom out enough they'll overlap anyway.  The thing to remember is we provide the data, the people who render the maps decide what to do with it.  If they're making a static map, they'll have to pick what they think is most important, or maybe invent some sort of combination symbol for multiple POI's if they want. But the data may also be used by someone who's making interactive POI layers, where they turn different one's on and off.  Or somebody who's making a map about some specialist topic, who ignores almost all POI's.

The default renderer on the the OSM site will only show one if there's multiple.  But that doesn't mean everyone else who gets the data will as well.


Stephen

On 17 October 2012 21:10, <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
Thanks Ben, but maybe I'm a bit slow today ?

If there are multiple nodes all on (about) the same spot, then the rendering engines show only one. I guess its the 'top' one. If they are just a bit further apart, then you might see part of the lower ones. Not a good look either way.

Perhaps its just something we cannot do perfectly.

David

----- Original Message -----
From:
"Ben Kelley" <[hidden email]>

To:
<[hidden email]>
Cc:
<[hidden email]>
Sent:
Wed, 17 Oct 2012 16:20:09 +1100
Subject:
Re: [talk-au] Lots of amenities ?



Hi.

Yes just put multiple nodes.

E.g. petrol station that has a toilet.

  - Ben.

On Oct 17, 2012 3:14 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
 

Hi folks, I have been fixing some of the errors that http://keepright.ipax.at/report_map.php?schema=50&error=38081608 tells us about.
I note that at some stage someone has logged that the General Store near me sells both fuel and fast food (and, for that matter, other stuff, its a post office for example). To tell OSM about both the fuel and fast food, they have put separate two POI in, I have just named it. It seems that does not render very well, only one shows up.

I really have not played with the amenity= stuff but I'd assume this is not a surprising issue ? Must be a lot of cases where one site provides a number of different amenities ? Anyone have a better way to deal with it ?

Search for Axedale, Victoria.

David


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Blind obedience following routing tools.

David Bannon-2
In reply to this post by Nick Hocking

I guess people are aware of this story, people in trouble for following
badly constructed maps -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-10/apple-maps-strands-motorists-looking-for-mildura/4418400

Looks like its to be the lead story on the abc news tonight.

I bet we could all find examples in OSM that could cause similar
problems.

David





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Re: Blind obedience following routing tools.

Steve Bennett-3
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 5:48 PM, David Bannon <[hidden email]> wrote:

I guess people are aware of this story, people in trouble for following
badly constructed maps -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-10/apple-maps-strands-motorists-looking-for-mildura/4418400

Looks like its to be the lead story on the abc news tonight.

I bet we could all find examples in OSM that could cause similar
problems.

Yep. For better or worse, OSM doesn't inspire the same trust (or blind faith) that Apple does.

I discovered this weird error on Bing Maps yesterday:


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Re: Blind obedience following routing tools.

Steve Bennett-3
(whoops, wrong button)
The weird error on Bing Maps:

http://binged.it/RlH1PC

The real Mt Buller can be seen 50km to the north. This error means if you route from Mansfield to Mt Buller (less than a 1 hour drive) it takes all the way back to Melbourne then via Licola - over 7 hours.

Steve


On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Steve Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 5:48 PM, David Bannon <[hidden email]> wrote:

I guess people are aware of this story, people in trouble for following
badly constructed maps -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-10/apple-maps-strands-motorists-looking-for-mildura/4418400

Looks like its to be the lead story on the abc news tonight.

I bet we could all find examples in OSM that could cause similar
problems.

Yep. For better or worse, OSM doesn't inspire the same trust (or blind faith) that Apple does.

I discovered this weird error on Bing Maps yesterday:



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