School and training

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School and training

Fernando Trebien
Hello everyone,

Here in Brazil we have started discussing special cases for tagging
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Refer%C3%AAncia#Casos_espec.C3.ADficos).

There are two common cases that don't seem to be covered by OSM yet:
language schools and cram schools.

I found this old proposal in the wiki, but it hasn't been voted yet:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training

Nonetheless, it does not include a value for cram schools. I've
suggested we use "training=tutoring", which is somehow more generic.
What do you think?

--
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"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)

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Re: School and training

dieterdreist



2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien <[hidden email]>
Hello everyone,

Here in Brazil we have started discussing special cases for tagging
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Refer%C3%AAncia#Casos_espec.C3.ADficos).

There are two common cases that don't seem to be covered by OSM yet:
language schools and cram schools.

I found this old proposal in the wiki, but it hasn't been voted yet:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training

Nonetheless, it does not include a value for cram schools. I've
suggested we use "training=tutoring", which is somehow more generic.
What do you think?


training=tutoring isn't very clear to me, could mean everything, I'd use a more specific word. What about amenity=language_school?

There is a (possible incomplete) list of educational features here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education_features

and there is also a proposal amenity=education (if I recall right).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: School and training

Fernando Trebien
Well, using amenity=school would have the advantage of immediate
support by current renderers and applications and no need for new
tags. While being "tagging for the application", it doesn't sounds so
incorrect to me (but I must admit it may be due to the language
barrier). Would it be wrong to combine "amenity=school" and
"training=" or should "amenity=school" be restricted solely to primary
and secondary schools?

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> 2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Here in Brazil we have started discussing special cases for tagging
>>
>> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Refer%C3%AAncia#Casos_espec.C3.ADficos).
>>
>> There are two common cases that don't seem to be covered by OSM yet:
>> language schools and cram schools.
>>
>> I found this old proposal in the wiki, but it hasn't been voted yet:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training
>>
>> Nonetheless, it does not include a value for cram schools. I've
>> suggested we use "training=tutoring", which is somehow more generic.
>> What do you think?
>
>
>
> training=tutoring isn't very clear to me, could mean everything, I'd use a
> more specific word. What about amenity=language_school?
>
> There is a (possible incomplete) list of educational features here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education_features
>
> and there is also a proposal amenity=education (if I recall right).
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



--
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"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)

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Re: School and training

Janko Mihelić
I think Martin is right in asking to invent new tags for different
types of schools. Makes it easier for the new mapper.
Also, we already have amenity=driving_school.

+1 amenity=language_school

2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien <[hidden email]>:

> Well, using amenity=school would have the advantage of immediate
> support by current renderers and applications and no need for new
> tags. While being "tagging for the application", it doesn't sounds so
> incorrect to me (but I must admit it may be due to the language
> barrier). Would it be wrong to combine "amenity=school" and
> "training=" or should "amenity=school" be restricted solely to primary
> and secondary schools?
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> Here in Brazil we have started discussing special cases for tagging
>>>
>>> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Refer%C3%AAncia#Casos_espec.C3.ADficos).
>>>
>>> There are two common cases that don't seem to be covered by OSM yet:
>>> language schools and cram schools.
>>>
>>> I found this old proposal in the wiki, but it hasn't been voted yet:
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/training
>>>
>>> Nonetheless, it does not include a value for cram schools. I've
>>> suggested we use "training=tutoring", which is somehow more generic.
>>> What do you think?
>>
>>
>>
>> training=tutoring isn't very clear to me, could mean everything, I'd use a
>> more specific word. What about amenity=language_school?
>>
>> There is a (possible incomplete) list of educational features here:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education_features
>>
>> and there is also a proposal amenity=education (if I recall right).
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
> "The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: School and training

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Fernando Trebien

2013/9/5 Fernando Trebien <[hidden email]>
Well, using amenity=school would have the advantage of immediate
support by current renderers and applications and no need for new
tags.


-1, you won't have immediate support for the feature, you just will see _something_ on the map, you could also use shop=supermarket for the language school and it would show up on the map ;-)

 
While being "tagging for the application", it doesn't sounds so
incorrect to me (but I must admit it may be due to the language
barrier). Would it be wrong to combine "amenity=school" and
"training=" or should "amenity=school" be restricted solely to primary
and secondary schools?


there was a conclusion after some discussion some time ago that amenity=school should only be used for general education schools (primary and secondary schools). This is also described in the wiki.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: School and training

Pieren
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> there was a conclusion after some discussion some time ago that
> amenity=school should only be used for general education schools (primary
> and secondary schools). This is also described in the wiki.


Well. It was discussed and decided within the German community.
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Dancing-school-td5264543.html

Pieren

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Re: School and training

fly high
In reply to this post by Janko Mihelić
On 06.09.2013 09:58, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> I think Martin is right in asking to invent new tags for different
> types of schools. Makes it easier for the new mapper.
> Also, we already have amenity=driving_school.
>
> +1 amenity=language_school

-1

Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use
subkeys ?

I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational
service or training.

cu

fly.


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Re: School and training

dieterdreist

2013/9/6 fly <[hidden email]>
-1

Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use
subkeys ?

I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational
service or training.



What would be the benefit? If I'm looking for a language school I am not interested in finding also dancing schools or driving schools or diving schools, or chess training or basketball training. They also do have almost nothing in common. We don't follow this approach for most other tags neither (e.g. highway=road, road=primary or amenity=shop, shop=grocery). This subtagging idea comes up from time to time, but there is really not much benefit IMHO if the objects are completely different. Subtags should be used to distinguish similar features, e.g. for which language they offer courses, but "training" is really too generic to give any reasonable results if standing alone.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: School and training

fly high
On 06.09.2013 13:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
> 2013/9/6 fly <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>     -1
>
>     Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use
>     subkeys ?
>
>     I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational
>     service or training.
>
>
>
>
> What would be the benefit? If I'm looking for a language school I am not
> interested in finding also dancing schools or driving schools or diving
> schools, or chess training or basketball training. They also do have
> almost nothing in common. We don't follow this approach for most other
> tags neither (e.g. highway=road, road=primary or amenity=shop,
> shop=grocery). This subtagging idea comes up from time to time, but
> there is really not much benefit IMHO if the objects are completely
> different. Subtags should be used to distinguish similar features, e.g.
> for which language they offer courses, but "training" is really too
> generic to give any reasonable results if standing alone.

Major advantage is the structure. It is easy to have more many keys than
kind of stuff under only a handful major keys. Especially amenity=* is
still crowded.

* it would be possible to have a default icon for education which is not
possible with the mix under amenity
* it makes it easier to document and design presets as we do not have to
create a structure there as we already have defined one with the major tag.

You are right that training is too generic but there is no difference in
search if you either search for "amenity=*" or "education=*".

cu

fly


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Re: School and training

dieterdreist


Am 06/set/2013 um 14:07 schrieb fly <[hidden email]>:

> * it would be possible to have a default icon for education which is not
> possible with the mix under amenity


if you'd Mix all kind of stuff under education it would be similar...

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: School and training

Brad Neuhauser
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of worship:  "If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]"

That said, what you're proposing (separate amenity tags for different types of other schools) seems to be what's happening anyway, albeit slowly.  Here's the top amenity tags with a value including school (from http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=amenity#values, searching for values with "school"):

school    546360
driving_school    3851
preschool    225
dancing_school    174
ski_school    112
school;place_of_worship    92
music_school    65
language_school    40
prep_school    35
dance_school    19
School    18
school;kindergarten    12
place_of_worship;school    10
schoolyard    10
couching_school    8
pre_school    8
riding_school    8
boarding_school    6
kindergarten;school    6
nursery_school    6
diving_school    5
musical_school    5
private_school    5
professional_school    5
sport_school    5
art_school    4
school (historic)    4
tuition_school    4

And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing, art, etc schools.  So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least be good to document a list of values people can refer to.

Also, fwiw, amenity=tutoring is used 15 times and amenity=tutor 9 times. 

Brad


On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 6:52 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

2013/9/6 fly <[hidden email]>
-1

Can't we use a different key like education or training and then use
subkeys ?

I do not like to find a new amenity=* for each kind of educational
service or training.



What would be the benefit? If I'm looking for a language school I am not interested in finding also dancing schools or driving schools or diving schools, or chess training or basketball training. They also do have almost nothing in common. We don't follow this approach for most other tags neither (e.g. highway=road, road=primary or amenity=shop, shop=grocery). This subtagging idea comes up from time to time, but there is really not much benefit IMHO if the objects are completely different. Subtags should be used to distinguish similar features, e.g. for which language they offer courses, but "training" is really too generic to give any reasonable results if standing alone.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: School and training

dieterdreist

2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser <[hidden email]>
Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of worship:  "If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]"


yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving school.
 

school    546360
driving_school    3851


these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as well.

 
preschool    225


not a school IMHO ;-)

...

And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing, art, etc schools.  So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least be good to document a list of values people can refer to.


+1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot of sense. Would you also include a "school of dolphins"? ;-) Sorry for the groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is "school" doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of stuff.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: School and training

Brad Neuhauser
I think you misunderstood my transition to a second point (maybe "That said" was not a clear enough pivot).  The list was showing what is "in the wild" right now, and that things like amenity=ski_school/dance_school/language_school/driving_school/riding_school/etc are in use now, at least in a limited way.  I thought that's what you were advocating for?  If not, please clarify.  Brad


On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser <[hidden email]>
Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of worship:  "If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]"


yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving school.
 

school    546360
driving_school    3851


these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as well.

 
preschool    225


not a school IMHO ;-)

...


And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing, art, etc schools.  So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least be good to document a list of values people can refer to.


+1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot of sense. Would you also include a "school of dolphins"? ;-) Sorry for the groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is "school" doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of stuff.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: School and training

fly high
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 06.09.2013 15:07, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
> Am 06/set/2013 um 14:07 schrieb fly <[hidden email]>:
>
>> * it would be possible to have a default icon for education which is not
>> possible with the mix under amenity
>
>
> if you'd Mix all kind of stuff under education it would be similar...

Maybe, but by far more less than adding 100 or more values to amenity
and they would have more in common. Our education system is quite
complex and you will find lots of special cases depending on the
countries but we are always talking about learning something.

Cheers
fly

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Re: School and training

Fernando Trebien
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
I agree with Martin. If I were implementing a map renderer, it would be far easier to treat categorized things (such as school and restaurant) using the same visual style and same icon, instead of specifying each possible variation separately (I would need to know all possible values in that category and the app would definitely miss any new values until I manage to update it again). Same thing if I were implementing a POI menu in a navigation app. Same if I were compiling a list of places to print down (this way it easily transforms into a nice hierarchical index).

And I don't see why this tagging style would prevent anyone from searching for a "Chinese restaurant": just search for amenity=restaurant + cuisine=chinese instead of amenity=chinese_restaurant. Similarly for language schools.

So my vote goes for either:
- amenity=school + (if not a regular school) training={driving, language, music, cram, etc.} (<< should work with practically all major applications); or
- amenity=education + education={kindergarten, school, college, university, driving, language, music, cram, etc.}

And definitely against amenity=driving_school, amenity=language_school, amenity=cram_school, amenity=business_school, amenity=computer_school, amenity=photography_school, amenity=dance_school, etc.

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser <[hidden email]>
Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of worship:  "If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]"


yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving school.
 

school    546360
driving_school    3851


these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as well.

 
preschool    225


not a school IMHO ;-)

...


And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing, art, etc schools.  So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least be good to document a list of values people can refer to.


+1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot of sense. Would you also include a "school of dolphins"? ;-) Sorry for the groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is "school" doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of stuff.

cheers,
Martin

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"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)

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Re: School and training

Yves
Fernando, if you really were to implement a style, chances are you'd prefer filter the data once for schools of the primary educational system, without bothering for explicitely filtering out all possible additional tags for any other kind of 'schools'.
Yves


Fernando Trebien <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I agree with Martin. If I were implementing a map renderer, it would be far easier to treat categorized things (such as school and restaurant) using the same visual style and same icon, instead of specifying each possible variation separately (I would need to know all possible values in that category and the app would definitely miss any new values until I manage to update it again). Same thing if I were implementing a POI menu in a navigation app. Same if I were compiling a list of places to print down (this way it easily transforms into a nice hierarchical index).

And I don't see why this tagging style would prevent anyone from searching for a "Chinese restaurant": just search for amenity=restaurant + cuisine=chinese instead of amenity=chinese_restaurant. Similarly for language schools.

So my vote goes for either:
- amenity=school + (if not a regular school) training={driving, language, music, cram, etc.} (<< should work with practically all major applications); or
- amenity=education + education={kindergarten, school, college, university, driving, language, music, cram, etc.}

And definitely against amenity=driving_school, amenity=language_school, amenity=cram_school, amenity=business_school, amenity=computer_school, amenity=photography_school, amenity=dance_school, etc.

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

2013/9/6 Brad Neuhauser <[hidden email]>
Two big counter-examples to your argument are restaurants and places of worship:  "If I'm looking for a [Chinese restaurant or Catholic church] I am not interested in finding also a [pizza restaurant or Synagogue]"


yes, but still it would be a restaurant or a place of worship, while a language school has very few in common with a skiing school or a driving school.
 

school    546360
driving_school    3851


these two are also documented, something we should try for the rest as well.

 
preschool    225


not a school IMHO ;-)

...


And it goes on like that with things like cooking, dog, aviation, sailing, art, etc schools.  So if this seems like the way forward, it would at least be good to document a list of values people can refer to.


+1, documentation is desirable, not sure if a common list does make a lot of sense. Would you also include a "school of dolphins"? ;-) Sorry for the groaner, but what I intend is that only because part of the word is "school" doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the same group of stuff.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: School and training

dieterdreist


Am 07/set/2013 um 09:32 schrieb Gmail <[hidden email]>:

> Fernando, if you really were to implement a style, chances are you'd prefer filter the data once for schools of the primary educational system, without bothering for explicitely filtering out all possible additional tags for any other kind of 'schools'.


+1,
@Fernando: actually you don't agree with me, I was advocating for the opposite ;-)

cheers,
Martin
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